Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[ZORAVAR]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

If Russia controlled us, would that make Armenia more powerfull and stronger, if we didn’t even have the control of our own army? If Russia controlled us, they would also control our military. There is always a chance that Russia is no longer interested in Armenia and things will start over again. We must remain independent but pro-Russian and build as strong nation as we can.

We would definitly be more secure. You can not deny that.
I am still waiting to see how you plan to make Armenia stronger and more powerfull. Your speaches that include nice slogans like angakh, azad etc. are just not enough.

That is true, but I also disagree that Russification in general is good for Armenia. Just walk down the streets in Moscow, and see how Russian people think, feel and do. I am for Armenification, not Russification. We are diffierent compared to any other country in this world, and I am against influence of another country.

No one here expressed a desire to be Russified.
And, as a matter fact, I have been in Moscow earlier this year. How about you, have you been recently in Moscow?

What is your identity worth if you do not have an independent country?

Over the last few centuries, how many years were we an independent country? If what you said is true, then I guess we must have lost our identity loooooong time ago!!!!

How long will youre identity remain in this globelizing world?

I am glad you brought up the word "globalization". But that is a topic by itself.

Russification will destroy the relationship with the diaspora Armenians,

Just a negative and pessimistic guess from your side.
Even during the Godless, anti-nationalistic, internatinalistic Soviet era there was such a thing called "Spurkahayoutian Hed Mshagutayin Gabi Gomide" sponsored and financed by Moscow.
My guess is that the exact opposite of your opinion will occur.

We are independent now and we must lay our foundations for a prosperous and independent Armenia.

No one here is disagreeing with that. We are all for a strong, prosperous and independent Hayrenik. Unfortunately, nice slogans like angakh azad etc. do nothing by themselves.

Instead of just disagreing with Armenian's "last resort situation" proposal, stand up and speak up: tell us how you plan to guarantee the future of our nation and people.

[ZORAVAR]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Oil at under $70 a barrel.

Guess what that means to Azerbaijan? They were getting more and more pompous lately because of their increasing revenues and 40% GDP growth rates. They were talking about a $2 billion defense budget and still growing....They were claiming defense expenditure higher than the whole of Armenia's national budget etc, etc.

Now what? They have already said that the 2009 budget will be lower. I would like to see them pay for the goods they have ordered. Lets see if they can maintain the shiny new equipment they recently received from Israel, Turkey and Ukraine.

The chicken will come home to roost in Baku.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Armenian I agree with you to some dept but why only Armenia and Russia? Think bigger like the Central Asian countries, Ukraine if their idiotic government is gone.

And only economic like what the EU was going to be, a place with open borders were the citizens can travel free in between the countries. And keep the politics divided. That would be the best way and could counter the Eu. Because Russia alone can't handle it believe me they can't.

[Armenian]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

With this one I must disagree Armenian.

I am glad you do, enker. Had there been more Armenians like you I would not be as concerned as I currently am about the 'longterm' prospects of our landlocked and embattled republic. I think Zoravar made my case quite eloquently and I thank him for it. It seems that he and I are the same page regarding this matter. However, allow me to add a few things to what he said.

How could an experienced person like you say Russification was the best thing that happened to Armenian society in a thousand years?

I guess I can say it because I am an experienced person??? It's very simple, enker. Had it not been for the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire prior to that, our beloved Armenia as well as our beloved metropolis of Yerevan would have remained a barren, backward, Islamic region; and we would not have the academy of sciences, composers union, writers union, the opera house, the Metro, the Polytech university, the medical university, governmental/civic infrastructure, the nuclear power reactor, the Byuraka observatory, etc... The Russian presence to our north not only helped us preserve what little of Armenia was left, but it also allowed us to technologically catch up with the times. Don't forget that men like Khachaturyan, Hambartsumyan, Babajanyan, Mikoyan, Saryan, Baghramian, Mirzoyan, Khanjian, Alikhanian brothers, Baruyr Sevak and many-many others like them realized their potentials under a system put in place by our northern neighbors. And the Armenian revolutionary movement of the late 1890s and the early 1900s was directly supported by the Russian Empire until Bolshevism put a stop to it.

It's good to be nationalistic, but it's smarter to be realistic. Blind nationalism especially if you have nothing to back it up with can and will ruin our nation, Georgia is a prime example of this. Pragmatism and sound realism, on the other hand, may help preserve our nation through these turbulent times.

They were destroying the Armenian culture, destroying the churches and the side-effects of the Russification today are that the mentality of most of the people are ‘xxxxED-UP’. From 1921 the old, strong, nationalistic feelings of the Armenians gradually disappeared. You know just like me what the mentality is of most of the Armenians in Armenia now. You want this to continue? I don’t.

You are talking about the 'other' side of the coin, the Stalin/Lenin era, the Bolshevik side. Try to differentiate between "Russian" and "Bolshevik" because they are opposites. Ethnic Orthodox Russians suffered by-far the worst persecution under the Bolsheviks, while some could reasonably argue that Bolshevism provided Armenia/Armenians with certain fundamental advantages. In other words, the Russian Empire was destroyed under Bolshevism while a modern industrial Armenian republic was created out of the ashes of the genocide. I think your sense of history is a bit warped. I don't blame you, I blame Cold War propaganda, which most of us in the Diaspora were victims of. And hear me clearly, man-for-man Armenians of Armenia are much-much more nationalistic than big talking Diasporans. With all the big talk we have been hearing in the Diaspora for decades how many Diasporans actually volunteered to fight in Artsakh? At best, several hundred (most of whom were Lebanese Armenians). Several hundred out of how many millions? Please stop the Diaspora derived fantasies. When the shit hits the fan again it will again be Armenian villagers and town folk doing the bloody work. The Diaspora simply is (and should be) a milk cow, but it's not even a good one at that... By the way, I'm a Lebanese Armenian with Dashnak and Hnchak affiliations.

The best thing for Armenia is just what it is doing now, being independent but being pro-Russian.

I agree. That is what we are currently doing. However, due to regional geopolitical and socioeconomic circumstances we are walking on very thin ground.

We can make compromises like the gas pipeline, if Russia controled us believe me the gas pipeline from Iran would not have been build. On compromise the diamater is now 700, instead of the planned 1400 (Russia does not want to make Armenia benefit maximum).

You really think Armenia built the pipeline in question without Russian approval? Actually, to their credit, officials in Yerevan tried. However, when Gazprom said no way, Yerevan sold shares of the pipeline to Moscow. Then Gazprom insisted on reducing the diameter of the pipeline so that Iran would not be able to supply gas beyond Armenia, into the Russian sphere of influence.

But we build the station and in the future we can build, if the time is there, another pipeline, because we are independent. If Russia was in control, they would also have never let Armenia to build relations with diaspora Armenians, where our future lies. (and diaspora Armenians would not been attracted to Russified Armenia). We have the chance, we are independent, now we must try to build a strong, pro-Russian, nationalistic (with influence of the Church) Armenia. We will reach our goals. Azat Hayastan!

What interest would Russia have in stopping Armenia-Diaspora relations? However, what real 'relations' does Armenia have with the Diaspora other than accepting financial assistance and allowing Armenians to freely visit the country of their ancestors? If you want to compare, the reality is that Armenia-Russia relations are much closer/much warmer than Armenia-Diaspora relations. Looking at Diasporan entities like the Armenian Assembly of America, the Armenian Diocese of North America, the Hovnanians and individuals like Jirayr Sefilian and Raffi Hovanisian - I am happy Armenia is much closer to Russia than the Diaspora... I think you have too high of an opinion about Diasporan Armenians. The vast majority of Diasporan Armenians are worthless as Armenians. And what given the Turkified or Arabized and/or Westernized Armenians of the Diasporan the right to reject a "Russified" Armenia? You are not being rational.

Armenian I agree with you to some dept but why only Armenia and Russia? Think bigger like the Central Asian countries, Ukraine if their idiotic government is gone.

It would have been nice if that was the case, but it's not. Of all the nations you mentioned, Russia is the only nation that has strong national interests in the Caucasus region. Central Asian states and Ukraine can only be economic partners for Armenia and not much else. Also, Russia is the largest, wealthiest and most powerful nation in Eurasia. Fortunately or unfortunate Armenia's alliance options are limited to Russia and only Russia.

[ZORAVAR]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Rooks and Crocodiles: Air Forces

Our Bort 17 (number 17) Sukhoi Su-25 strike aircraft taking off from Gyumri with practice bombs.


Bort 18 has just landed at Gyumri. In the background an Ilyushin Il-76 cargo plane.


Bort 70 is a 2 seater. The rear seat is for the instructor.


One of our Mi-24 KROKODIL gunships.


An Azeri Su-24 fighter-bomber escorted by two Mig-25 interceptors


An Su-24 escorted by Mig-29s this time.


Azeri Mi-24 helicopter-gunship

The Russians have nicknames for their aircraft: The Su-25 is called GRACH (Rook) while the Mi-24 is called KROKODIL (Crocodile).

If we compare the Armenian and Azeri forces in numerical terms, we will find that we have similar numbers of tanks, armoured vehicles, artillery, anti-tank weapons and air defenses. The only branch of the armed forces where they have clear superiority over us is the air arm.

That was also true during the NK conflict of the 90's. While we had a handfull of transport and gunship helicopters that were mostly used to ferry cargo and refugees, they used their jet fighters against our troops as well as civilians in Stepanakerd.

Nowadays we have a sizable airforce with 15 Sukhoi Su-25 close support aircraft. These are the same type successfully used by the Russians to pound the Georgian positions during the August conflict over Ossetia. They are not fast, but they have armour around the pilot and the engines. These aircraft are designed to operate at low altitude and support the ground forces. Their armement consists of various types of bombs and rockets. They can absorb lots of punishment and are very survivable. They represent our main assets.

In addition we have a handfull of Czech made L-39 ALBATROS jet trainers. We use them for pilot and helicopter training. Before getting on board a Su-25, our young pilots must first qualify on the L-39. The L-39s can carry some weaponry and can be used for the same role as the Su-25. They are less survivable.

We posess a dozen Mi-24 helicopter gunships. These crocodiles became famous during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan where the Mujahideens called them "Shaytan's machine". Heavily armed and armoured, they are very effective in strike missions using rockets, missiles and heavy machine guns.

We also have a dozen Mi-8 transport helicopters. Some of them are armed with rockets, but they are mostly intended to ferry troops, ammunition etc. and bring back the wounded.

That is all we have. Our air force's main mission is to inflict casualties on an attacking enemy and to provide fire support to our troops in case we are counter-attacking. We don't have fighters meant to shoot down Azeri aircraft. The defense of our airspace is left to our ground based systems consisting of Surface-Air Missiles and Anti-Air-Artillery. I covered that in a previous post.

Now lets have a look at the Baku's winged assets.

They have a much larger air arm. Over 50, 70 or even 100 jet fighters, dependinmg on which source you want to believe. However, what percentage of their airplanes are in flyable condition? That is the big unknown.

They have the same type of Su-25 and Mi-24 close support aircraft and helicopters, but in larger numbers. They also use the same L-39 trainers as we do. But the similarity ends there. They have fighter interceptors (Mig-21, Mig-25 and Mig-29) as well as deep interdiction strike aircraft (Su-24). They also ordered a number of Chinese/Pakistani JF-17 fighters.

Let us have a closer look at their capabilities:

Mig-21: Inherited from Soviet times. I doubt they are still flyable. They must be at least 30 years old. They are light fighters with secondary bombing capabilities.

Mig-25: Left over by the Soviets. There were at least 2 of them flying over Baku during their June parade. Fastest high flying interceptors in the world. They are absolutely useless against the type of aircrat we operate. They can carry dumb bombs and can be used to bomb large targets like cities. They must be at least 30 years old (probably on their last legs).

Mig-29: a modern 3rd generation fighter that can also do secondary bombing missions. Can intercept our aircraft if they venture too deep inside their airspace. Otherwise, it is too fast to be a close suppport aircraft. Good for bombing large targets only.

Su-24: The most dangerous aircraft in their inventory. In the process of being acquired from the Ukraine. A two seat strike aircraft with long range that can do pinpoint bombing missions day or night in all kinds of weather. This is the aircraft that can potentialy cause us the biggest problems. The air defenses of Armenia have a solution against these in the form of the S-300 long range (any altitude) missiles. But Artsakh does not have those. They can still shoot these intruders down with their shorter range OSA (SA-8) missiles for example, but it won't be easy.

JF-17: they have not recived them yet. Basically it is a reverse engineered and improved Mig-21. It is the type of aircraft you would buy only if USA, Europe or Russia are not making their products available to you. They are fast and capable, but don't have the bombing capabilities of a Su-24 nor the dogfighting abilities of a Mig-29.

In short, the Azeri air force is more capable than ours at least on paper. We have a strong air defense network to significantly minimize any advantage that they may have. Remember, we were in much worse shape during the NK conflict where we were powerless against their air arm in the beginning. Our air defense people showed great creativity in shooting down many of their aircraft and helicopters with the limited assets they had at that time. During the later stages of the war, we started using more capable systems such as larger SAMs...we managed to deny our airspace to their aircraft, it became a no-fly zone for their jets...their airforce was beaten.

[truAnatolian]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

How many Mig-29's do we have? Not including the ones in the Russian Base...... Our airforce isnt as good as the Azeri's but I think we have a good Air-defense set-up.

[ZORAVAR]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

How many Mig-29's do we have? Not including the ones in the Russian Base...... Our airforce isnt as good as the Azeri's but I think we have a good Air-defense set-up.

We don't have any Mig-29s. All the ones based at Erebuni airbase belong to the Russian squadron.

[truAnatolian]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Seriously? Thats garbage......They should hand over all Mikoyan production rights to us for free. This is the story of our nation, One of our own invents something and we don't get any claim to it, rather our enemies will uses Migs against us. Just another way the Russians keep their boots on our head.

[Tigranakert]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I guess I can say it because I am an experienced person??? It's very simple, enker. Had it not been for the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire prior to that, our beloved Armenia as well as our beloved metropolis of Yerevan would have remained a barren, backward, Islamic region; and we would not have the academy of sciences, composers union, writers union, the opera house, the Metro, the Polytech university, the medical university, governmental/civic infrastructure, the nuclear power reactor, the Byuraka observatory, etc... The Russian presence to our north not only helped us preserve what little of Armenia was left, but it also allowed us to technologically catch up with the times. Don't forget that men like Khachaturyan, Hambartsumyan, Babajanyan, Mikoyan, Saryan, Baghramian, Mirzoyan, Khanjian, Alikhanian brothers, Baruyr Sevak and many-many others like them realized their potentials under a system put in place by our northern neighbors. And the Armenian revolutionary movement of the late 1890s and the early 1900s was directly supported by the Russian Empire until Bolshevism put a stop to it.

Ofcourse, without the Russian Empire there would not have been an Armenia. But I doubt that if Armenia could have been independent from the 1921 (if we were strong enough) that we would not have had the same sciences, composers union, writers and all those other wise Armenians we had in our history. I am thankfull of the Russians and I am pro-Russian, let there be no doubt. Armenians are Armenians, and I disagree that because of the Russian Union we had men like Khachaturyan, Hambartsumyan, Babajanyan, Mikoyan, Saryan, Baghramian, Mirzoyan, Khanjian, Alikhanian brothers, Baruyr Sevak. We would have got those also if we were independent (if theoretically we were strong enough).

It's good to be nationalistic, but it's smarter to be realistic. Blind nationalism especially if you have nothing to back it up with can and will ruin our nation, Georgia is a prime example of this. Pragmatism and sound realism, on the other hand, may help preserve our nation through these turbulent times.

Agreed, but I am realistic. Not blinded by my nationalism, when I say we must stay pro-Russian. To form a union as a last resort, that is true. But that Russification is good for Armenians, I have my doubts.

You are talking about the 'other' side of the coin, the Stalin/Lenin era, the Bolshevik side. Try to differentiate between "Russian" and "Bolshevik" because they are opposites. Ethnic Orthodox Russians suffered by-far the worst persecution under the Bolsheviks, while some could reasonably argue that Bolshevism provided Armenia/Armenians with certain fundamental advantages. In other words, the Russian Empire was destroyed under Bolshevism while a modern industrial Armenian republic was created out of the ashes of the genocide. I think your sense of history is a bit warped. I don't blame you, I blame Cold War propaganda, which most of us in the Diaspora were victims of. And hear me clearly, man-for-man Armenians of Armenia are much-much more nationalistic than big talking Diasporans. With all the big talk we have been hearing in the Diaspora for decades how many Diasporans actually volunteered to fight in Artsakh? At best, several hundred (most of whom were Lebanese Armenians). Several hundred out of how many millions? Please stop the Diaspora derived fantasies. When the shit hits the fan again it will again be Armenian villagers and town folk doing the bloody work. The Diaspora simply is (and should be) a milk cow, but it's not even a good one at that... By the way, I'm a Lebanese Armenian with Dashnak and Hnchak affiliations.

Besides the Stalin/Lenin era, would you say that Boris Yeltsin or Gorbachov (not real bolsheviks) were good for Armenia? Time will come when Russia will not need us anymore, what can we do then if we are in a union, totally controled by Russia, who has no interest in us any longer?

You really think Armenia built the pipeline in question without Russian approval? Actually, to their credit, officials in Yerevan tried. However, when Gazprom said no way, Yerevan sold shares of the pipeline to Moscow. Then Gazprom insisted on reducing the diameter of the pipeline so that Iran would not be able to supply gas beyond Armenia, into the Russian sphere of influence.

Like I said, if the choice was really up to the Russians the pipeline would not have been build. Because of Russian interference the diameter of the pipeline was strongly reduced.

What interest would Russia have in stopping Armenia-Diaspora relations? However, what real 'relations' does Armenia have with the Diaspora other than accepting financial assistance and allowing Armenians to freely visit the country of their ancestors? If you want to compare, the reality is that Armenia-Russia relations are much closer/much warmer than Armenia-Diaspora relations. Looking at Diasporan entities like the Armenian Assembly of America, the Armenian Diocese of North America, the Hovnanians and individuals like Jirayr Sefilian and Raffi Hovanisian - I am happy Armenia is much closer to Russia than the Diaspora... I think you have too high of an opinion about Diasporan Armenians. The vast majority of Diasporan Armenians are worthless as Armenians. And what given the Turkified or Arabized and/or Westernized Armenians of the Diasporan the right to reject a "Russified" Armenia? You are not being rational.

Agree again, what real relations do we have besides what you say? Not much, for now. We are independent and we must work for a change (a first small step is the Ministry of Diaspora). We can have both, and warm Armenian-Diaspora relations, and warm Armenian-Russian relations. I think we agree on all points, except that I disagree that Russification is good for Armenia.

[Tigranakert]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

ZORAVOR, can you tell me which sniper rifle this is?


And is this an AK-74 SU? And what is the difference between this automatic rifle and others?

More pictures Coorperative Longbow Lancer 2008