Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[ArmenPezeshk]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Old video but still a proper documentary showcasing how powerful the propaganda machine is in Azerbaijan and how twisted their messages are to the world. The world needs to wake the fxxx up!

[Mher]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Old video but still a proper documentary showcasing how powerful the propaganda machine is in Azerbaijan and how twisted their messages are to the world. The world needs to wake the fxxx up!

Back then Azerbaijan was Sweden compared to now. So imagine how it is now. There is literally zero non government opinion left in that country.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Finally we seem to start thinking.
This 4 day war .......Azeris despite what anybody (Moscow especially) says.
Let's stop this civilized humanitarian crap...

My Dear,
Most of what you said here is exact.
Let me just add some notes:

1- We are not quite the same with baku for Russia, whether they do realise/admitt, and more so whether we do it. For simple reason. If not their foothold in Armenia, Russia is out of the game all together, and must dig trenches for the second defense of Stalingrad/Volgograd. They will not last for a decade in Kavkaz, and no one will ask them their opinion.
2- Azerbaijan can't buy the same arms and same quantities, at such low prices from elswhere. It is yet to be prooved, that others are willing to sell them the same kind and quantities, more so qualities... you can presume, but yet, apart from Israel, no one did (turkey and Pak are not included, yet no US high tech armament was used against us, that is US control is still working, since most NATO strategic materials have reexport limitations, and till now Turkey could not breach them. In the 90-s, Turkey did reexport ex-east german arms in quantities, but not western ones). And even what Israel does, is not equivalent (very expensive, harmful, yet not strategic) compared to Russia.
3- And all this put aside, the most important aspect is not here. Azerbaijan just can't, DOES NOT HAVE THE OPTION TO BUY these from others than Russia, since the reason Baku buys from Russia, is the clear expectation from Russia to pressure, control, and force our hand. That is, the biggest hope of Aliyev is not a victory on the battkefield, but a treason of our leadership under russian pressure. If you do not understand this, you can't get the picture right, to beggin with.
Baku thinks it is bribing Russia, since it is certain Russia can force our hand for a pro azeri solution. (This is not unfounded, History shows that this turkish policy was very successfull for the last century. Last such success was Turkish/Russia deal destroy Armenian hand regardin 1915/2015, and the famous treason of Serjik and Gul's protocols).
So from this sole point, no one can replace Russia for Baku.
Even if they do get same arms, so cheap from Israel, or London, or the US, none of them can call serjik and order a halt of our counter offensive, when things turn bad for Baku on the front, after a surprise attack.
4- Russia is not our enemy, but even more not our Ally. This is a fact, proven yet and again, whether we want ir or not. Yet we have to take it as one of the regional powers, whith whom we can collaborate. It is just a Partener. We want it or not. It is our National fault, that we let a partener, historically very prone to sell our interests, turn our master.
It is not Russia's fault. it is our mistake. It is our fault, that a MF like nalbantoghlu is our FM. That's why, first of all, we must recover our decision making capacity, independence. From all, but most of all, from the Russians.
5- Since we did accept Russian diktats, and did accept to live as slaves, under full control of a Master that did not even guaranty what We pretended it did (security/arms supply...), we ourselves closed all other doors. Whether we can find other arms supplies, cheaper or costlier can't be excluded, as long as we did not tried it first.
But it certainly can't be, if the one supposed to talk in our name, works oppenly as a russian agent.(Nalbantoghlu)
6- We want it or not, we do not have allies. But this is not our destiny. Even stateless Kurds did find patrons, and even they refuse full controll of their evident benefector (US), and keep the balance with Russia. Why sjould we not be able to try the same basic game.
Before excluding any potential success, first we have to try.
And for that, we need to:
- call a cat a cat, even if it is very disturbing to realise what that meens.
- recover our independence, decision making capacity.
- try in most urgency to have a diplomacy, diplomats of our own, even if it means to hurt the taste of the russians.

7- last, asking the question about who imposed on us this halt is irrelevant.

[ArmenPezeshk]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I stopped by the AYF sponsored protest today infront of the Azeri embassy in DC. If only you guys could see how ridiculous the azeri/turks were...basically foaming from their mouths.

My cousin is a law student at Georgetown Law Center. She is organizing a DISCUSSION (not debate) concerning Artsakh scheduled for April 20th. We actually have been planning this for months but have had to adjust a few things in light of recent events. Confirmed speakers include, David Scalbo (From the state department and one of the original cease-fore negotiators..I may have spelled his name wrong) Armen Sahakyan, and NKR representative Robert Avetisyan.

Believe it or not, I personally am trying to find representative/speakers from the Azeri side. Someone capable of opening some dialogue professionally. So far, most conversations I have with Azeris regarding this have almost ended up with me tearing their eyes out.. and I am an extremely reasonable person even in the face of our enemies. If anyone knows an educated azeri (if that exists) who will be willing to join the discussion please forward me their contact info. Some of you may be wondering WTF I am doing, but bringing parties from both sides together only adds legitimacy to the discussion. Our goal here is bring awareness in a non-biased, professional setting and to hopefully spark some kind of coverage and enlightenment. Also, feel free to reach out to other Armenian political figures who may be interested.

Thanks,
Armen Pezeshkian

[Joseph]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

My Dear,
Most of what you said here is exact.
Let me just add some notes:

1- We are not quite the same with baku for Russia, whether they do realise/admitt, and more so whether we do it. For simple reason. If not their foothold in Armenia, Russia is out of the game all together, and must dig trenches for the second defense of Stalingrad/Volgograd. They will not last for a decade in Kavkaz, and no one will ask them their opinion.
2- Azerbaijan can't buy the same arms and same quantities, at such low prices from elswhere. It is yet to be prooved, that others are willing to sell them the same kind and quantities, more so qualities... you can presume, but yet, apart from Israel, no one did (turkey and Pak are not included, yet no US high tech armament was used against us, that is US control is still working, since most NATO strategic materials have reexport limitations, and till now Turkey could not breach them. In the 90-s, Turkey did reexport ex-east german arms in quantities, but not western ones). And even what Israel does, is not equivalent (very expensive, harmful, yet not strategic) compared to Russia.
3- And all this put aside, the most important aspect is not here. Azerbaijan just can't, DOES NOT HAVE THE OPTION TO BUY these from others than Russia, since the reason Baku buys from Russia, is the clear expectation from Russia to pressure, control, and force our hand. That is, the biggest hope of Aliyev is not a victory on the battkefield, but a treason of our leadership under russian pressure. If you do not understand this, you can't get the picture right, to beggin with.
Baku thinks it is bribing Russia, since it is certain Russia can force our hand for a pro azeri solution. (This is not unfounded, History shows that this turkish policy was very successfull for the last century. Last such success was Turkish/Russia deal destroy Armenian hand regardin 1915/2015, and the famous treason of Serjik and Gul's protocols).
So from this sole point, no one can replace Russia for Baku.
Even if they do get same arms, so cheap from Israel, or London, or the US, none of them can call serjik and order a halt of our counter offensive, when things turn bad for Baku on the front, after a surprise attack.
4- Russia is not our enemy, but even more not our Ally. This is a fact, proven yet and again, whether we want ir or not. Yet we have to take it as one of the regional powers, whith whom we can collaborate. It is just a Partener. We want it or not. It is our National fault, that we let a partener, historically very prone to sell our interests, turn our master.
It is not Russia's fault. it is our mistake. It is our fault, that a MF like nalbantoghlu is our FM. That's why, first of all, we must recover our decision making capacity, independence. From all, but most of all, from the Russians.
5- Since we did accept Russian diktats, and did accept to live as slaves, under full control of a Master that did not even guaranty what We pretended it did (security/arms supply...), we ourselves closed all other doors. Whether we can find other arms supplies, cheaper or costlier can't be excluded, as long as we did not tried it first.
But it certainly can't be, if the one supposed to talk in our name, works oppenly as a russian agent.(Nalbantoghlu)
6- We want it or not, we do not have allies. But this is not our destiny. Even stateless Kurds did find patrons, and even they refuse full controll of their evident benefector (US), and keep the balance with Russia. Why sjould we not be able to try the same basic game.
Before excluding any potential success, first we have to try.
And for that, we need to:
- call a cat a cat, even if it is very disturbing to realise what that meens.
- recover our independence, decision making capacity.
- try in most urgency to have a diplomacy, diplomats of our own, even if it means to hurt the taste of the russians.

7- last, asking the question about who imposed on us this halt is irrelevant.

Well done, Vrej. Thank you, brother.

[Joseph]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I stopped by the AYF sponsored protest today infront of the Azeri embassy in DC. If only you guys could see how ridiculous the azeri/turks were...basically foaming from their mouths.

My cousin is a law student at Georgetown Law Center. She is organizing a DISCUSSION (not debate) concerning Artsakh scheduled for April 20th. We actually have been planning this for months but have had to adjust a few things in light of recent events. Confirmed speakers include, David Scalbo (From the state department and one of the original cease-fore negotiators..I may have spelled his name wrong) Armen Sahakyan, and NKR representative Robert Avetisyan.

Believe it or not, I personally am trying to find representative/speakers from the Azeri side. Someone capable of opening some dialogue professionally. So far, most conversations I have with Azeris regarding this have almost ended up with me tearing their eyes out.. and I am an extremely reasonable person even in the face of our enemies. If anyone knows an educated azeri (if that exists) who will be willing to join the discussion please forward me their contact info. Some of you may be wondering WTF I am doing, but bringing parties from both sides together only adds legitimacy to the discussion. Our goal here is bring awareness in a non-biased, professional setting and to hopefully spark some kind of coverage and enlightenment. Also, feel free to reach out to other Armenian political figures who may be interested.

Thanks,
Armen Pezeshkian

Armen, there was an Azeri guy who used to write for Zaman in Turkey until he ran afoul of Erdogan and got deported. I cannot recall his name but will try to find out. He'll be very pro-Azeri but not necessarily pro-war.

[Joseph]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Russian lawyer: Artsakh resistance is a challenge for post-modern world order

Russian lawyer, member of the Civic Chamber of Russia, Executive Director of the For the Openness of Justice Public Committee Denis Dvornikov has made the following comment on his facebook page, against which Azerbaijan has launched a massive military assault these days.
“Artsakh resistance is becoming not only a strong military power but also a completely unexpected ideological challenge for the post-modern world order, in which a nation is not a nation and a state is not a state, where the ideal man in peaceful times is the Consumer and in harsh times the one who flees – the Refugee.
It is exactly for this reason that the world is in a shock and can’t believe its eyes when watching how men with a smile on their faces go to the front to fight for their brothers, for their land, for that boy who has been shot by an assh#le artilleryman in the schoolyard...
If the Karabakh Armenians had fled, they too would have probably been given a couple of German villages, their feet too would have been washed in St. Peter’s square in Rome, their crying men would have been shown on CNN and BBC too. But they didn’t run! To the contrary – an Armenian millionaire is taking his son out of comfortable Oxford and sending him to the front, and not to some elite unit but to the very frontline, under Russian “Солнцепек”s; because for him it is more important to have a son who is a real man rather than a son who is a leading economist.
I am very worried for Artsakh. I am very envious of Artsakh, where in that mountainous air such thick meaning of life is concentrated that you can already eat it with a spoon, like the hot Armenian Spas.”]
God bless the heroic, indigenous, Orthodox Christian Armenian people of Artsakh/NKR.
May 1,000s and 1,000s of invadonomad, Islamist, Turkic hordes meet their virgins in whatever ‘paradise’ the savages end up in.

[Joseph]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Though the numbers are results he uses are dubious, this a pretty decent synopsis:

http://www.unz.com/akarlin/nagorno-karabakh-war-15/

[ArmenPezeshk]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Armen, there was an Azeri guy who used to write for Zaman in Turkey until he ran afoul of Erdogan and got deported. I cannot recall his name but will try to find out. He'll be very pro-Azeri but not necessarily pro-war.

Thank you, looking forward to it.

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

My Dear,
Most of what you said here is exact.
Let me just add some notes:

1- We are not quite the same with baku for Russia, whether they do realise/admitt, and more so whether we do it. For simple reason. If not their foothold in Armenia, Russia is out of the game all together, and must dig trenches for the second defense of Stalingrad/Volgograd. They will not last for a decade in Kavkaz, and no one will ask them their opinion.
2- Azerbaijan can't buy the same arms and same quantities, at such low prices from elswhere. It is yet to be prooved, that others are willing to sell them the same kind and quantities, more so qualities... you can presume, but yet, apart from Israel, no one did (turkey and Pak are not included, yet no US high tech armament was used against us, that is US control is still working, since most NATO strategic materials have reexport limitations, and till now Turkey could not breach them. In the 90-s, Turkey did reexport ex-east german arms in quantities, but not western ones). And even what Israel does, is not equivalent (very expensive, harmful, yet not strategic) compared to Russia.
3- And all this put aside, the most important aspect is not here. Azerbaijan just can't, DOES NOT HAVE THE OPTION TO BUY these from others than Russia, since the reason Baku buys from Russia, is the clear expectation from Russia to pressure, control, and force our hand. That is, the biggest hope of Aliyev is not a victory on the battkefield, but a treason of our leadership under russian pressure. If you do not understand this, you can't get the picture right, to beggin with.
Baku thinks it is bribing Russia, since it is certain Russia can force our hand for a pro azeri solution. (This is not unfounded, History shows that this turkish policy was very successfull for the last century. Last such success was Turkish/Russia deal destroy Armenian hand regardin 1915/2015, and the famous treason of Serjik and Gul's protocols).
So from this sole point, no one can replace Russia for Baku.
Even if they do get same arms, so cheap from Israel, or London, or the US, none of them can call serjik and order a halt of our counter offensive, when things turn bad for Baku on the front, after a surprise attack.
4- Russia is not our enemy, but even more not our Ally. This is a fact, proven yet and again, whether we want ir or not. Yet we have to take it as one of the regional powers, whith whom we can collaborate. It is just a Partener. We want it or not. It is our National fault, that we let a partener, historically very prone to sell our interests, turn our master.
It is not Russia's fault. it is our mistake. It is our fault, that a MF like nalbantoghlu is our FM. That's why, first of all, we must recover our decision making capacity, independence. From all, but most of all, from the Russians.
5- Since we did accept Russian diktats, and did accept to live as slaves, under full control of a Master that did not even guaranty what We pretended it did (security/arms supply...), we ourselves closed all other doors. Whether we can find other arms supplies, cheaper or costlier can't be excluded, as long as we did not tried it first.
But it certainly can't be, if the one supposed to talk in our name, works oppenly as a russian agent.(Nalbantoghlu)
6- We want it or not, we do not have allies. But this is not our destiny. Even stateless Kurds did find patrons, and even they refuse full controll of their evident benefector (US), and keep the balance with Russia. Why sjould we not be able to try the same basic game.
Before excluding any potential success, first we have to try.
And for that, we need to:
- call a cat a cat, even if it is very disturbing to realise what that meens.
- recover our independence, decision making capacity.
- try in most urgency to have a diplomacy, diplomats of our own, even if it means to hurt the taste of the russians.

7- last, asking the question about who imposed on us this halt is irrelevant.

My dear Vrej. Let me disagree with your 2&3 points.
Azerbaijan could go the way Georgia did. And have much more prospects than Georgia, because unlike Georgia, a large and powerful country of turkey, with whom they identify as one nation would take them with open arms. And the reason that west does not supply Azerbaijan with arms now is because Baku is in Russia's sphere. If coming out, it would be not even equal in arms shipments with Georgia but much more preferred for US because Baku could pay with cash unlike Georgia who takes hand overs.
I can guarantee you that Azerbaijan, with turkeys help(getting a privileged rates like NATO members turkey) would be flooded with modern western armaments.
Never mind about human rights BS issues that supposedly prevents US from selling arms to Baku. Soudi Arabia is 100 times worse than Azerbaijan in that, but is flooded with latest western tech for which not only US but every European country plus Japan and even China and India are competing to supply.
That would be very welcome arrangement for west.
Heck, west would probably encourage turkey and Azerbaijan to create one military. To shut Russia out for good.
Have you concidered what would become of Armenia?
Don't tell me that west is interested about Armenian issues for humanity. What's a couple of million more Christians with what they let to happen to much more of them in Middle East?
Whatever interest we see in west for us is because we are in Russian camp and all is done to weaken it.
We would be a history.
And that is what was exactly happening before 2008 Georgia war, as Azerbaijan along with others was holding its breath to see how Russia handled the challenge.
And the way Russia chopped up Georgia and how west sat silent in war, convinced Azerbaijan that it was Russia, that was gonna dictate things in Caucasus. Not US, EU, NATO or turkey.
It was after 2008 that most of Azerbaijan Russia armament deals took place. It was the way how Azerbaijan submitted itself to Russia.
I miself don't see any diffrence how Russia dictates itself from how West dictates itself. Just smooth or rough methods.
I myself think that despite some weaknesses, our government handles situation with west and Russia pretty well.
If any one of us criticizing it, could not do better.
If we and Azerbaijan were in western camp same way we are under Russian influence, I guarantee you Artsakh would have been given to Azerbaijan long ago plus a corridor in Syuniq from Baku to Nakhijevan.
This is based on all the proposals and declarations not coming from Russia but all that has and still comes from Europe and west in general(one last one just 3 weeks ago).
As long as both Armenia and Azerbaijan are under Russian controll the status quo will not change and the first country of two that cuts relations with Russia will loose Karabakh dispute.