Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[gokorik]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

French Maginot line was mostly tunnels and in sole purpose of stopping enemy on rthat line.
What WWII showed was the war was very dinamic with fast flanking pinzer movements. It still has not been changed.
Trenches and tunneling is WWI era.

Durring WWII, you had huge a huge area being fought over. The front lines measured in thousands of km's. I'm not saying that we depend on these tunnels for victory, I'm saying they can be used to protect troops and allow moment without the risk from artillery.

Our trenches there are for the sole purpose of keeping lines of territory controll. They are in no way intend for full scale confrontation by modern weapons and tactics. Even Artsrun Hovhannesyan emphasized this, that quick maneuvers and efficiency in tactics, discipline, weapons are our plan.

Agreed but my point is that trenches still can be useful. Yes we can't depend on them.

The tunnels you mentioned in Syria actually have had no determining effect. Asad's forces are winning by modern methods of sincronized assaults. Those tunnrls have become graves for large numbers of rebels.

Those tunnels have allowed those wahabi rats to survive artillery strikes and aerial bombardment.

Actually world was talking about rebel tunnels up untill year ago. But since then, even rebels have changed their tactics.
No modern western army uses trench or tunnel warfare anymore. They use fast maneuvering and presice hitting tactics.
Our army won this 4 day war not because trenches, but presice artillery and effective small unit tactics

I belive South Korea uses tunnels, if you count strategic objects like NORAD or other bunker systems, many western nations utilise them.

Our trenches there are for the sole purpose of keeping lines of territory controll. They are in no way intend for full scale confrontation by modern weapons and tactics. Even Artsrun Hovhannesyan emphasized this, that quick maneuvers and efficiency in tactics, discipline, weapons are our plan.

100% agree again my point is tunnels can help. Not that they are a magic solution to all problems

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Agreed but our loss of life is far greater then there's. How we perceive things should not just be tolerated. We need to think outside the box of reality and think of ways to hurt enemy forces apart from the already known weapons they know we carry. For example ,Tunnels. Very effective in Mountainous regions. Also traps. Our forces don't need to go head on but sit back. Tactical Warfare needs to change. I believe our Army is strong but our design on the ground is old.

Those words that I have redlined are yours.
I am asking you again. Why did you make this sentence? Wy are you repeating Azerbaijani official line?
If you really get that offended by being called azery, then why are you taking the azeri line and not armenian official line, which states the names of more than 100 azeri dead.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Those words that I have redlined are yours.
I am asking you again. Why did you make this sentence? Wy are you repeating Azerbaijani official line?
If you really get that offended by being called azery, then why are you taking the azeri line and not armenian official line, which states the names of more than 100 azeri dead.

Yavrig, vor aneret Madaghisitz a, mi had hartz dur, togh dan aratche nayi, kani lech a dessel ir atchkov?

To end the tunnel story, just one question: where should the entry and exit of each tunnel be exactly?
How long and how deep do you imagine it?
Whit what kind of manpower are we supposed to dig them?
(we have nor the Viet manpower, nor smooth soil. Most our terrain is rocky 1 or 2 meter deep.... )

And if it is to hide from artillery shelling, normally the blindage is supposed to do that job. What needs to be done is use iron and beton in big quatities, like the germans did when building bunkers.

That makes sense, bur tunnels, certainly not.

[gokorik]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Talking of tunnels is irrelevant.
Anybody talking about has no idea of our trench system, topography...., etc... it's just irrelevant.

Tunnels may be used in specific situations, like Viet Kong in Vietnam or the jihadists in Syria.
The Jihadists use mainly to connect 2 relatively close quarters, or villages, under siege.... or to dig under enemy lines to detonate mines.
Evidently irrelevant in our case.
Hezbola did it to hide from superior air force, in a guerilla war, just do the Afgans. Still irrelevant, since those do not have the imperative to hold territory...

In our case, tunnels are iirelevant.

Hezbollah did hold territory against Israel and tunnels were used to give Hezbolah an edge. The Vietnamese also did hold territory although they would abandon that territory if an American attack was overwhelming, but not before tunnels were used to inflict a price for that land.

[Eddo211]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

The best way to fight (in my opinion) is to fire on enemy and then run to another place fire on enemy and repeat. If bomb or artillery in coming then you go into your tunnel with your fingers in your ears. lol

[ASALA2116]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I'm no Azeri troll. I am an Armenian , with an Armenian wife from Armenia. Whoever calls me a Turk or Azeri is insulting me and my family. If you want to clarify if I'm really an Armenian give me a call on my Australian number. +61452526765 . My name is Garen. I'm a proud Armenian so give me a call if I have to prove myself to a few guys who tried to label me as an Azeri. Let's see if you call

[Vrej1915]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Hezbollah did hold territory against Israel and tunnels were used to give Hezbolah an edge. The Vietnamese also did hold territory although they would abandon that territory if an American attack was overwhelming, but not before tunnels were used to inflict a price for that land.

Not exactly.
Hzbola used reinforced and hidden tunnels in border villages, once they were already captured, or at least totally evacuated by civilians, to harass the invading army, at the cost of turning big villages like Bint Jbeil into small Stalingrads.
Or else, they used some in caves like, montain terran, to hide their Grads or Katyshas.
yet, the tactics and imperative were absolutely not comparable with our situation.
Their terrain was much smaller, topography much different, and essentially in built areas, that happen to be very close one to an other in Lebanon.
The area south of the Litani river has a population of something around 300.000 , and is just the size of half Martakert (25.000).
Our fronline in NKR is something like 350 Km, and yet something like 700 Km for Armenia alone.....
Plus they had the huge funding of Iran, may be hundred of millions for just that purpose.
The only thing slightly comparable may be the last battle in a small rocky valley, at last hours of 2006 war, when israelis tried to use large tank formations an heliported speznaz.
Ironically there two, one israeli helicopter was shot by an anti tank missile, yet a RPG 29, and not a 7 in our case.

The Viet Kong used tunnels to hide entire formation, behind enemy lines, most of the time in built villages underground or immediate near by, with a friendly population not subject to genocide by the occupation force, immense manpower, and butterlike soil, not rocks...

In neither case, the defending party had to hold 12.500 KM2 absolutely hermetic to the other sides troops....

[Vrej1915]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I'm no Azeri troll. I am an Armenian , with an Armenian wife from Armenia. Whoever calls me a Turk or Azeri is insulting me and my family. If you want to clarify if I'm really an Armenian give me a call on my Australian number. +xxxxxxxxxxxx . My name is Garen. I'm a proud Armenian so give me a call if I have to prove myself to a few guys who tried to label me as an Azeri. Let's see if you call

Ay dgha, mi had klukhed tap dur, hamaret tchntchi, et herakhosed ver gal, Madaghis zanki, esh esh turss dalutz aratch.

[AbuSindi]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

You are right. This is the import /export laws........but as far as I know it applies to companies/businesses that are involved in export/import.

There is nothing stopping me from sending say 200 night visions in a period of two months to another person in Armenia. However the way you guys want to do it will be much better and get recognition.

Eddo Jan we have plenty of night vision in Armenia. What we don't have is thermal vision. If there is no source of light (like if the moon is behind some clouds) or if there is heavy fog, night vision doesn't work. The same if the enemy is hiding behind a shrub. Night vision makes you able to see at night just as you would during the day. So if there is cover you won't see the enemy. Thermal vision on the other hand senses body heat and allows you to see even if the enemy is behind some bushes. I looked into sending some thermal vision and it's illegal to export even for personal use. If you have one in the US and want to go hunting in Canada, you cannot take it with you, even to Canada! You can certainly try, and might be able to successfully sneak one or two units, but almost impossible in mass amounts.

[gokorik]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Not exactly.
Hzbola used reinforced and hidden tunnels in border villages, once they were already captured, or at least totally evacuated by civilians, to harass the invading army, at the cost of turning big villages like Bint Jbeil into small Stalingrads.
Or else, they used some in caves like, montain terran, to hide their Grads or Katyshas.
yet, the tactics and imperative were absolutely not comparable with our situation.
Their terrain was much smaller, topography much different, and essentially in built areas, that happen to be very close one to an other in Lebanon.
The area south of the Litani river has a population of something around 300.000 , and is just the size of half Martakert (25.000).
Our fronline in NKR is something like 350 Km, and yet something like 700 Km for Armenia alone.....
Plus they had the huge funding of Iran, may be hundred of millions for just that purpose.
The only thing slightly comparable may be the last battle in a small rocky valley, at last hours of 2006 war, when israelis tried to use large tank formations an heliported speznaz.
Ironically there two, one israeli helicopter was shot by an anti tank missile, yet a RPG 29, and not a 7 in our case.

The Viet Kong used tunnels to hide entire formation, behind enemy lines, most of the time in built villages underground or immediate near by, with a friendly population not subject to genocide by the occupation force, immense manpower, and butterlike soil, not rocks...

In neither case, the defending party had to hold 12.500 KM2 absolutely hermetic to the other sides troops....

Again, I'm not saying that tunnels should be dug from one edge of the front line to the other. I'm saying certain strong point could be dug. Dug in artillery position with tunnels to ferry ammo from one point to another protected from cluster bombs and other artillery. That's not what we saw in videos durring April 2-5, with ammo in the open and exposed artillery men.
I still don't agree that tunnels would be useless. Yes impractical in some areas but they could have helped around Talish. It's easy for me to criticise after everything happene but still, I stand by my point.
If tunnels are useless in trying to defend territory, why would the South Korean's use them?