Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[armo12]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I was in Armenia for 3 months. In the last week of the 3 months I saw a couple flying. Unless they were Mig 29's. It was all a flash in the sky at the end of the day. But they were fighters.

You can regularly spot migs and su-25's in armenia

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Looks like Asper Arms must have a contract with the military on modifying some arms. It is good start, but they have to get their act together and start producing our own instead of modifying.

To be able to manufacture a good sniper rifle, you need modern machine shop capability. Modern, I mean, CNC milling, lathe, ID rifling, EDM wire and sinker machines among some other equipment. In US there are shops which can produce any custom receiver/bolt combo (the heart of rifle) and rifling any caliber and twist barrels and fit all together.
All this time I have not seen or heard of any machine shop capable of and equipped accordingly in Armenia. Even Russians up untill 10-15 years ago were using archaic barrel building machines that were last modernized when war bounty was brought home from Germany.
US had imposed a ban on precision CNC machines in mid 80's because they were trying to prevent soviets from making super quiet propellers for submarines.
That is why there was practically no high quality sniper barrels made in Russia. Things have changed very much.
Now Russia has facilities making high quality sniper weapons. They even upgraded methods of manufacturing their AKs.


10-15 years ago precision CNC and EDM machines cost a 1/4 million each, now price have gone down way low.
Last month the company I work for bought a HAAS VF4 CNC mill (top brand in world) for just $90000. This machine will make any precision receiver or any part for rifle. Other machines will be similar in price and availability.
Also I am very confident for computer drafting/design and programming capabilities of our compatriots in Armenia. They will eat this technology raw.
Now, the machinery field is so competitive that when you buy their machine, they will give you free 1 week training on how to operate their machine. Also there are private schools here that for around $2000 will teach you the latest MasterCam so you can program the machines. Another $2000 will get you to learn 3D drafting program like SolidWorks.
Now you can design and produce your own top of the line sniper rifles from zero. This kind of armament is not a strike fighter tech. It's just detail oriented and presice craftsmanship.
I could order enough material to build 100 barrels for a couple of thousand dollars and ship it to Armenia also.

That's it. The investment needed for a good shop is around one million dollars. But nobody can spend that kind of money in Armenia and then wait if government decides to buy the product.
It is necessary that government go into partnership with a qualified enerprenor in starting and supporting this enerprise.
At the end, we could say that Armenia makes its own sniper rifles. The price of each of those weapons will drop from around $6-8000 each to $2000.
Just manufacturing and selling precision rifles for hunting and sport shooting world wide can become very profitable and carry the cost for domestic consumption.
Finnish Sako/Tikka has become so iconic that just the by pod for rifles they make sells for $400-500 dollars worldwide. About 10 times higher than competition.
There can be enormous profit. Just our government has to nurture this enterprise.
Also, this kind of manufacturing is not like Georgian armored vehicle affair. About 100 times less risky and costly.

[DieHard69]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

2016 has been great year in military progress, ever since the 4 day war our Mod has developed cameras, night vision goggles etc, and who is this person that has given these miracles Ilham Aliyev. His stupidity and a failed blitzkrieg has given us these miracles, he should be called The greatest hero of Armenia.

[Azad]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Now you can design and produce your own top of the line sniper rifles from zero. This kind of armament is not a strike fighter tech. It's just detail oriented and presice craftsmanship.
I could order enough material to build 100 barrels for a couple of thousand dollars and ship it to Armenia also.

That's the thing. Once they have a decent and final prototype the rest will be running the cnc and line assembly.
With (5) people company they can produce it all and start manufacturing other models for other uses.
Agree, they will need around a million but the labor will be very reasonable to export once they have a full line of 10 to 20 items.
I have seen some videos of Asper Arms he is using 1950's equipments which is ok for basic milling. Time to step it up.

[burjuin]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Հրետանավորները

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

That's the thing. Once they have a decent and final prototype the rest will be running the cnc and line assembly.
With (5) people company they can produce it all and start manufacturing other models for other uses.
Agree, they will need around a million but the labor will be very reasonable to export once they have a full line of 10 to 20 items.
I have seen some videos of Asper Arms he is using 1950's equipments which is ok for basic milling. Time to step it up.

Azad Jan we could do what Chinese have done in general merchandise market. Pick the highest priced items and make cheaper copies and rip the profits.
For example.
An Accuracy Inyernational "chassis system" (rifle stock, lol) costs around $1000. It is the top in world in aiding the shooter with adjustments and support. In reality it is an 8santimeter by 12 by 100 chunk of aluminum (worth about $50) precision machined and fitted to have adjustments for cheek, hand grip, shoulder support, receiver nesting with nice floating barrel, scope and by pod support, added rails for fancy add ons on 3 sides and painted cool camo. Sells for $1000.
A similar one can be designed with all the futures but distinctive (in arms marked moving around a couple of bolts is new design).
In Armenia's labor market this could be made for maybe $100 total cost.
Go to secondary markets for accuracy international (not US, Canada, England etc, but South America, orient, Africa and Eastern Europe) and sell.
There are many other items in menue that can be done.

[Azad]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Azad Jan we could do what Chinese have done in general merchandise market. Pick the highest priced items and make cheaper copies and rip the profits.
For example.
An Accuracy Inyernational "chassis system" (rifle stock, lol) costs around $1000. It is the top in world in aiding the shooter with adjustments and support. In reality it is an 8santimeter by 12 by 100 chunk of aluminum (worth about $50) precision machined and fitted to have adjustments for cheek, hand grip, shoulder support, receiver nesting with nice floating barrel, scope and by pod support, added rails for fancy add ons on 3 sides and painted cool camo. Sells for $1000.
A similar one can be designed with all the futures but distinctive (in arms marked moving around a couple of bolts is new design).
In Armenia's labor market this could be made for maybe $100 total cost.
Go to secondary markets for accuracy international (not US, Canada, England etc, but South America, orient, Africa and Eastern Europe) and sell.
There are many other items in menue that can be done.

Agree! The county and the people have the brain and the potential. The government has to get serious on creating an honest environment for business. Help startups with honest and fair supports.
Just like TUMO center they should start planting the seeds for machine shop and CNCs educations.
The IT sector is headed in the right direction. Next should be manufacturing, at least small (air shipped) precision products, since our land trade is not the best.

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I have come to own a Turkish manufacture unknowingly an came to see what a piece of s h I t their manufacturing quality is.
I bought a Winchester model 1000 air rifle from big 5. The clerk told me Winchester had bought Daisy air rifle co. And now they were under Winchester name.
I have original Daisy air pistol and love the quility.
After shooting fiew Rounds the stock broke in half. You know you have to break the barrel open to put pellet? It broke right below hand grip area.
As I looked closer on barrel, there was clearly marked "Made In Turkey".
Mother hacker.
I looked on the stock and the break was shiny like a broken glass surface. So Turks cast the stock without using any glass fiber reinforcement. This stock was as good as a toy gun stock.
So I went to Internet and found out that this Turkish company made rifles for Winchester/Daisy for a while. But the quality was so low and three were so many froudulent shipments that Daisy canceled all the contract and took manufacturing to China.
Turks on the other hand got so upset that they stopped shipment of orders that they were paid for.
Now I still have this rifle with broken stock. I am not going to fix it, as Turkish stocks are not sold anymore and new version of rifles made in China is different. Besides, instead of spending any money I probably will by Spanish Gamo.
But I don't want to throw it away.
I ithink, I will completely disassemble it and as a Tooling Engineer check Turkish manufacturing quality closely.
I know, I am up for satisfaction in my heart.

[HajiHabibli]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

are the artillery troops armed with AKMs?

[Azad]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I have come to own a Turkish manufacture unknowingly an came to see what a piece of s h I t their manufacturing quality is.
I bought a Winchester model 1000 air rifle from big 5. The clerk told me Winchester had bought Daisy air rifle co. And now they were under Winchester name.

Next time you should pay more and get a nice Diana. If they are still made in Germany.