Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[armo12]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

In the interview babayan says that the azeri attack was essentially spontaneous and not a pre planned large scale operation. If that's the case, how does one explain the maps and documents found in the downed mi24 which pointed to such a pre planned operation?

His argument basically collapsed on itself there,in fact,it only requires some logic to find out that azerbaijan was very well prepared for such an attack,here's the most obvious one:azerbaijan usually sends small diversion groups to penetrate the border,this time it sent the most elite special forces it had,alongside aerial support and reconnaissance,heavy artillery being used

[HyeSocialist]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Armenia cannot survive a state of perpetual war.I'm not talking about ending our ethnic conflict with Turks - That is an eternal struggle that we share with many other groups (Greeks, Serbs, etc). I'm talking about peace - politically. Armenia needs a chance to actually develop itself as well, and we don't have superpower backing and our own nuclear arsenal like Israel. We cannot be at war with Turks for 60 years straight.

If ceding some territory to the Turks (Just as Israel ceded territory back to Arab states) means development of the country, no more threats of full scale war, and peace - Why would you be against such a thing?

I've been reading your stuff and largely abstaining from replying back because I like the concept of peace. But here is where your reasoning is actually flawed. You even mentioned Israel giving back the Sinai in exchange for peace. Here is the things you do not really take into account.

Ceding land to Azerbaijan, in no shape or form, guarantees Nagorno Karabakh to be recognized by Azerbaijan or any other country. It is essentially appeasemet to the Azeris. Do you understand that? It literally does not guarantee us ANYTHING.

The Israelis lost the Sinai. They still occupy the golan heights which have now become almost part of Israel. They are now occupying the West Bank, which will, if pressure like this continue, also become Israel. You see, the Israelis are not going to give up land for some assumption it will bring peace. What the Israelis understand, what Armenians understand, and what you will one day understand is that in the real world, outside of Oregon, some people are just not going to understand unless you xxxxing fight them.

Armenia can grow into a super power. It could use its conflict to propel industrial production. It can beat the Azeris in all shapes and forms. It can't do that if you are on some kind of supposed high horse saying that we should give back those lands that brave men and women died for in order to appease a dictator and a country that is trying to destroy the Armenians.

You are unfamiliar of the depopulation of Nakchivan? Or how KGB grey wolves like Heydar Aliyev were trying to depopulate Syunik? How they tried and FAILED in Nagorno Karbakh?

Keep that peace loving bull sh*t to having the US pull out of Iraq or some sh*t. It has no place historically in the history of our people.

[HyeSocialist]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Azad Jan we could do what Chinese have done in general merchandise market. Pick the highest priced items and make cheaper copies and rip the profits.
For example.
An Accuracy Inyernational "chassis system" (rifle stock, lol) costs around $1000. It is the top in world in aiding the shooter with adjustments and support. In reality it is an 8santimeter by 12 by 100 chunk of aluminum (worth about $50) precision machined and fitted to have adjustments for cheek, hand grip, shoulder support, receiver nesting with nice floating barrel, scope and by pod support, added rails for fancy add ons on 3 sides and painted cool camo. Sells for $1000.
A similar one can be designed with all the futures but distinctive (in arms marked moving around a couple of bolts is new design).
In Armenia's labor market this could be made for maybe $100 total cost.
Go to secondary markets for accuracy international (not US, Canada, England etc, but South America, orient, Africa and Eastern Europe) and sell.
There are many other items in menue that can be done.

Totally agree! You don't even have to be manufacturing armaments continuously either. Binoculars, Shovels, other tools can be made from the same precision machinery needed to make firearms. Manufacturing armaments can be a good way to subsidize manufacturers. That's pretty much how Boeing can still compete with the Euros subsidizing the xxxx out of Airbus.

[burjuin]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Armenian peacekeepers shift duty in Lebanon
17:20, 01.06.2016
Region:World News, Armenia
Theme: Politics


YEREVAN. – The official ceremony of the peacekeeping duty shift of the Armenian troops was held Monday at the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) Sector West Headquarters, in Shamaa in the southern part of the country.

The Ministry of Defense of Armenia informed Armenian News-NEWS.am that before the ceremony, Armenian Ambassador to Lebanon Samvel Mkrtchyan met with UNIFIL’s Sector West Commander, Brigadier General Arturo Nitti.

Nitti commended the Armenian peacekeepers’ professional training, discipline and ability to work in a multinational environment, and highlighted their capability of rapid integration.

The interlocutors exchanged views on the prospects for the development of UN peacekeeping, and the need for the expansion of peacekeeping mandates.

During the official ceremony of the duty shift, Brigadier General Nitti thanked the Armenian peacekeepers for their conscientious and high level of service, and spoke appreciatively of their discipline and service training.

The official ceremony concluded with the presentation of UN special medals to the outgoing Armenian peacekeepers, and for successful completion of their mission.

Armenia News - NEWS.am

http://news.am/eng/news/330072.html

[AbuSindi]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

My position is not opposite the position of the Armenian people. My position is opposite to your position - no compromise/suicide pact.

Please explain how not cedeing territory is a suicide pact. On the contrary I believe that what you are suggesting is suicide. Turks have already proven countless times that they do not abide to any agreements, whether it's the Geneva conventions, the cease fire agreement, etc. They were in Talish for a few hours and we saw what kind of barbarians we're dealing with. Now you advocate bringing them closer to our populated territories by cedeing unpopulated regions? They've now started to make claims to Yerevan! Are you even considering the implications your position can have if it is carried out? Again, please explain how not giving any territory to the Turks is suicide. Thanks!

[haydavid]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Lori please answer the other questions like AbuSindi ones.
How is giving any land not suicidal to us ? We lost 800hectares of high ground and now 3 villages officially dead. No-way for anyone to live there.
Give them 8000 hectares and whole Artsax will be the same.
Turks have proven that they can't be our peaceful neighbours. The only way they want us is as theirs.
Never have we been in peace with them while we had any form of independence.

Treaties mean xxxx , what did those treaties do for Crimea? For Kosovo ? For Palestina ? For Abkhasia ? Nothing , nothing at all.

People aren't as good as you think. You are being naive if you belive they will EVER recognise Artsax even in exchange of 99% of land.

[Lori]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Please explain how not cedeing territory is a suicide pact. On the contrary I believe that what you are suggesting is suicide. Turks have already proven countless times that they do not abide to any agreements, whether it's the Geneva conventions, the cease fire agreement, etc. They were in Talish for a few hours and we saw what kind of barbarians we're dealing with. Now you advocate bringing them closer to our populated territories by cedeing unpopulated regions? They've now started to make claims to Yerevan! Are you even considering the implications your position can have if it is carried out? Again, please explain how not giving any territory to the Turks is suicide. Thanks!

Sure no problem. Btw, haydavid settle down. I can only answer so many accusations, demands, questions, etc at once. This is a discussion, not an interrogation.

If we don't come to a political compromise with the Azerbaijanis, it will surely mean war. War will destroy both nations, this situation is described as "suicide pact" by non-partisan analysts like Thomas De Waal, Eric Krunger, etc. Both Armenia and Azerbaijan have the capability of destroying one another. This was not the case 20 years in post-war Caucasus. The Azerbaijanis did not have the arsenal they have now. We did not have the arsenal we have now. That is reality and we must accept this. We don't have to "trust" the Azeris in order to have peace. We have a mutual defense agreement with the most powerful country in the region. Trust is not a factor, our security apparatus is. Again, incorporating Artsakh into Armenia will bring it under this umbrella. I don't know how many times I gonna have to repeat this.


When I say "peace" I do not mean a lasting peace with Turks. Ill say it again, that is an eternal struggle that we share with other groups and is not possible. Ethnic conflict extends past politics and boundaries. However, political peace is possible as long as one side is willing to come to a compromise.

The Azeris will not accept just letting 10-14 percent of their official territory go, that is given. I believe the time when states could just take land from one another during war is now over, we have international law and restrictions that regulate this. A compromise is in order.

Now you advocate bringing them closer to our populated territories by cedeing unpopulated regions?

You say this as if I just want us to give them land and thats it. You also imply that they aren't already close to major population centers in Armenia. Giving them the southern regions of NKR in exchange for political peace (And perhaps Shahumyan) is a much better alternative then phased settlement or Western plans for the region. (Maintaining post-Soviet borders)

I never said anything about Azerbaijan recognizing Artsakh as independent in exchange for territories. Artsakh is Armenia.

Are you even considering the implications your position can have if it is carried out?

It is not just my position, this is something you need to understand. This started because I agreed with Samvel and posted a map that triggered people.

Hmm . I read what you said.
What can I say? A Red cow wil not change his skin. An idiot will stay so.
only a Turk will back stub. You might be an Armenian by birth, but a Turk by character nevertheless.

Awww, Hakob. what happened to your dissertation? It was actually civil. Its as shame you have resorted back to your childish ways. Just couldn't take the sight of your own post huh?

Addressing Kocharyan's statements

Azerbaijan was already purchasing massive amounts of weapons from Russia when he was in power, just not as advanced. They used that weaponry to rebuild their army. We didn't start a modernization process until 2010, by then Azerbaijan had already started acquiring T90S tanks.

Robert is trying to ride a political wave, thats it. Something just seems really fishy here.

[londontsi]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Hmm . I read what you said.
What can I say? A Red cow wil not change his skin. An idiot will stay so.
only a Turk will back stub. You might be an Armenian by birth, but a Turk by character nevertheless.

Hagop, your conciliatory hand to Lori had parallels to Lori's approach to the Azeri in seeking peace.

Situations like these reminds me from the famous quotes of Churchill.
This relates to the sympathy given by good doers to the locals in the colonies ....

He said "They are either under your heel or round your neck."

You need to treat destructive ideas with the same pre-warning.

There is no middle ground between under the heel and round your neck.

.

[HajiHabibli]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

The Azeris will not accept just letting 10-14 percent of their official territory go, that is given. I believe the time when states could just take land from one another during war is now over, we have international law and restrictions that regulate this. A compromise is in order.

Unless Armenia can develop enough where Azerbaijan understands that war is truly suicidal and it's better to let 10-14% go, then get destroyed. Difficult task, but not impossible.

At this point it's too early still to jump for compromise. There could potentially come a time where the scenario you describe is truly the best option left. But, again, we are not there at this time.

[Lori]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Unless Armenia can develop enough where Azerbaijan understands that war is truly suicidal and it's better to let 10-14% go, then get destroyed. Difficult task, but not impossible.

At this point it's too early still to jump for compromise. There could potentially come a time where the scenario you describe is truly the best option left. But, again, we are not there at this time.

I agree. Unfortunately, the latest events more or less rule out any hopeful scenario from taking place. I do get the feeling that war is just around the corner. This "ceasefire" is just the calm before the storm.