Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

You keep talking about Sasna Tsrer.
Can you explain how can they build a country with institutions and they took over a police station.
My friend, that's like going back to a jungle state. That's not how countries are built..by glorifying armed attacks on a police station.
Armenians are not emotionally intelligent people, they love adrenaline.
But please think calmly, away from blind nationalism. Can such people build a modern, advanced country?
How can you assure that if similar people took over, they won't take over anything they don't like in a similar fashion?
Have these people been to universities? How many languages do they speak?
Do they understand about economics? GDP? growth?
We are stuck in the past and governed by our emotions, that's our biggest problem.
P.s. please don't reply by writing about how corrupt or whatever the current and past gov'ts were/are. I know all that already.

You are talking as if current government is university graduate and knowing multiple languages.
Check and see how many HHK leaders have actually graduated from high school?
As far as I am concerned the real owner's klik of Armenia (small bunch you can count on one hand) are simply uneducated street brutes.
The explanation of how a revolting group can build a country is just as irrelevant because sadly they won't come that in their mind. They will act to get rid of current rulers.
You probably did not read my first comment very carefully. Some of you think that this situation can continue for indefinite time and that is wrong in my opinion.
Not eliminating or stopping azeri provocations will lead to war soon or later, unleashed by Azeris. Each and every provocation and each and every weak answer from Yerevan only emboldens Azery government and population to go further towards war. We can or we cannot win a war now or should we wait for better times is not in our hands.
While in last April we had success in stopping them, does not guarantee for the next one. Who knows what Azeris will bring in, since we allow them full initiative and controll of situation by our weakness. Weaker we are, more forced we should be to controll our borders in order to prevent full scale war, not be like this.
About Economic situation, I wish even the most corrupt thug would pull out our country from stagnation. I would support him/her.
But excuse me, if I keep repeating that all this "reforms" by those "leaders" do not look very assuring.
So, should anybody start thinking "what if?".
What if economy does not improve?
From what I can see, the changes, legislation, election processes and system in parliament that this government is passing on increasingly, will turn our allready oppositionless country into one party Soviet like sistem. Allready the last HHK party congress was but exact copy of USSR communist party congresses by looks, content, purpose and spirit.
Then what and where is the engine that will transform our country into thriving economic power? HHK? One imported minister? Or 20 years of promises?
Remember what Serjik promised 5years ago? Depi abahov Hayasdan! Where is it?
So yes, there is a danger that if failed, there will be upraisings, because this ruling clan if failed (it has allready too many times) will not bow to any other entity and step down to let the more capable take care of country, but will do everything to keep power.
You guys look very tired or uncomfortable talking about corruption and rather talk about pleasant "future". But you should start thinking that not only Aliev in Baku wants to create a perpetual generational family power, but also our oligarkhs and rulers, though with other tactics.
All those entities or their sons and families like Khachatrian, Kocharian, Beglarian, Sargsian, Bagdasarov etc etc will be there holding political and economic power and Armenia's vitals for loooong time. That is why, if you notice, most of them, like yo-yos get in and out of government posts and business/market ownerships continuously for past 20 years no matter what scandals or opponents they face.
Any person that finds the thought of any disturbance of appraising very dangerous and damaging for our future, should instead put all efforts in creating a viable, strong, smart and dedicated, unified opposition and do everything to guarantee peacefull power transition.
Otherwise, when no visible options are left, population can resort to most extreme ways. Not everybody will get up and leave because of thugs above. Many will take Arms if the last hope of change dies. And of course it will be a gamble.
If anything to change the situation it is nesessary to put pressure on government to force to stop this incursions on borders.
It does not matter how they do it. They take over those heights, start a war or what? It's the government's job. Otherwise there is no government.
And it is very wrong to tell people to accept continuous deaths of young sons, because it is the best we can do now, because first of all people will not accept that continuously and also because with the same mentality even Artsakh can be handed over because "this is the best we can do".

[armnuke]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

You keep talking about Sasna Tsrer.
Can you explain how can they build a country with institutions and they took over a police station.
My friend, that's like going back to a jungle state. That's not how countries are built..by glorifying armed attacks on a police station.
Armenians are not emotionally intelligent people, they love adrenaline.
But please think calmly, away from blind nationalism. Can such people build a modern, advanced country?
How can you assure that if similar people took over, they won't take over anything they don't like in a similar fashion?
Have these people been to universities? How many languages do they speak?
Do they understand about economics? GDP? growth?
We are stuck in the past and governed by our emotions, that's our biggest problem.
P.s. please don't reply by writing about how corrupt or whatever the current and past gov'ts were/are. I know all that already.

You are talking as if current government is university graduate and knowing multiple languages.
Check and see how many HHK leaders have actually graduated from high school?
As far as I am concerned the real owners klik of Armenia (small bunch you can count on one hand) are simply uneducated street brutes.
The explanation of how a revolting group can build a country is just as irrelevant because sadly they won't come that in their mind. They will act to get rid of current rulers.
You probably did not read my first comment very carefully. Some of you think that this situation can continue for indefinite time and tgat is wrong in my opinion.
Not eliminating or stopping azeri provocations will lead to war soon or later, unleashed by Azeris. Each and every provocation and each and every weak answer fro Yerevan only emboldens Azery government and population to go further towards war. We can or we cannot win a war now or should we wait for better times is not in our hands.
While in last April we had success in stopping them that does not guarantee for the next one. Who knows what Azeris will bring in, since we allow them full initiative and controll of situation by our weakness. Weaker we are, more forced we should be to controll our borders in order to prevent full scale war, not be like this.
About Economic situation, I wish even the most corrupt thug would pull out our country from stagnation. I would support him/her.
But excuse me, if I keep repeating that all this "reforms" by those "leaders" do not look very assuring.
So, should anybody start thinking "what if?".
What if economy does not improve?
From what I can see, the changes, legislation, election processes and system in parliament that this government is passing on increasingly will turn our allready oppositionless country into one party Soviet like sistem. Allready the last HHK party congress was but exact copy of USSR communist party congresses by looks, content, purpose and spirit
Then what and where is the engine that will transform our country into thriving economic power? HHK? One imported minister? Or 20 years of promises?
Remember what Serjik promised 5years ago? Depi abahov Hayasdan! Where is it?
So yes, there is a danger that if failed, there will be upraisings, because this ruling clan will not bow to any other entity and step down to let the more capable take care of country, but will do everything to keep power.
You guys look very tired or uncomfortable talking about corruption and rather talk about pleasant "future". But you should start thinking that not only Aliev in Baku wants to create a perpetual generational family power, but also our oligarkhs and rulers, though with other tactics.
All those entities or their sons and families like Khachatrian, Kocharian, Beglarian, Sargsian, Bagdasarov etc etc will be there holding political and economic power and Armenia's vitals for loooong time. That is why, if you notice, most of them, like yo-yos get in and out of government posts and business/market ownerships continuously for past 20 years no matter what scandals or opponents they face.
Any person that finds the thought of any disturbance of appraising very dangerous and damaging for our future, should instead put all efforts in creating a viable, strong, smart and dedicated, unified opposition and do everything to guarantee peacefull power transition.
Otherwise, when no visible options are left, population can resort to most extreme ways. Not everybody will get up and leave because of thugs above. Many will take Arms if the last hope of change dies. And of course it will be a gamble.
If anything to change the situation it is nesessary to put pressure on government to force to stop this incursions on borders.
It does not matter how they do it. They take over those heights, start a war or what? It's the government's job. Otherwise there is no government.
And it is very wrong to tell people to accept continuous deaths of young sons, because it is the best we can do now, because first of all people will not accept that continuously and also because with the same mentality even Artsakh can be handed over because "this is the best we can do".

If the current government is bad, it doesn't mean Sasna Tsrer is good. They are two mutually-exclusive parties. That's why I wrote that P.S., but it seems that's the only excuse Sasna Tsrer admirers can come up with.

As far as I am concerned the real owners klik of Armenia (small bunch you can count on one hand) are simply uneducated street brutes.
The explanation of how a revolting group can build a country is just as irrelevant because sadly they won't come that in their mind. They will act to get rid of current rulers.

Thanks, the Armenia I'm looking forward to is not about moving from one ruling niche to another. Now the Sasna guys are pissed because they were left out for so long, they weren't included in the picture, and most importantly they couldn't fill their pockets, while the other Karabakh vets filled their pockets and coffers. Now with their hasty, uncalculated, irresponsible act, Sasna Tsrer gained the heart and mind of all those who think that positive change can be brought upon Armenia with a group of armed men from Karabakh taking over a Police station and killing a couple of policemen. Certainly not the Armenia where you and I would want our kids to grow up.

You automatically think condemning Sasna Tsrer means favoring HHK. WRONG!

[haydavid]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

If the current government is bad, it doesn't mean Sasna Tsrer is good. They are two mutually-exclusive parties. That's why I wrote that P.S., but it seems that's the only excuse Sasna Tsrer admirers can come up with.



Thanks, the Armenia I'm looking forward to is not about moving from one ruling niche to another. Now the Sasna guys are pissed because they were left out for so long, they weren't included in the picture, and most importantly they couldn't fill their pockets, while the other Karabakh vets filled their pockets and coffers. Now with their hasty, uncalculated, irresponsible act, Sasna Tsrer gained the heart and mind of all those who think that positive change can be brought upon Armenia with a group of armed men from Karabakh taking over a Police station and killing a couple of policemen. Certainly not the Armenia where you and I would want our kids to grow up.

You automatically think condemning Sasna Tsrer means favoring HHK. WRONG!

You are wrong thinking that those guys could not fill their pockets. Most of them had the opportunity to do that. Do you really think powerful men ( yes they are powerful , many people look up to them and respect them) like Pavlik couldn't swim in money if he wanted to ? They don't care about being oligarchs , I'm 100% sure of that.
What they tried was simply not well-planned.

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

If the current government is bad, it doesn't mean Sasna Tsrer is good. They are two mutually-exclusive parties. That's why I wrote that P.S., but it seems that's the only excuse Sasna Tsrer admirers can come up with.



Thanks, the Armenia I'm looking forward to is not about moving from one ruling niche to another. Now the Sasna guys are pissed because they were left out for so long, they weren't included in the picture, and most importantly they couldn't fill their pockets, while the other Karabakh vets filled their pockets and coffers. Now with their hasty, uncalculated, irresponsible act, Sasna Tsrer gained the heart and mind of all those who think that positive change can be brought upon Armenia with a group of armed men from Karabakh taking over a Police station and killing a couple of policemen. Certainly not the Armenia where you and I would want our kids to grow up.

Armnuke, would you please read again what you have wrote? What is the nonsense of "they did not line their pockets"?
Neither Pavlik and majority in his group never participated in any political or economical groups or activities ( nakhakhirhrdaran being as political exemption). Those are true honest, patriotic Armenians you and me can ever be. Why are you distorting their true image? Do you have any evidence of any one of Sasna Tsrer member corruption or any wrong doing or a thought, please present it to us. I want to know after all.
Your reasoning of their actions, I would expect from someone like Surik, or Nemets or Lfic because that's al they think of, like "carrot that thinks whole world is carrot color", Lol.
You call their act as irresponsible. But every Armenian believes that Sasna Tsrer with their actions initiated the events that led to change of prime minister, initiation of economic "reforms", reforms in the army, moscow's sudden softening and quieting of Lavrov initiative, clearing and progress of arms supplying etc etc.
there is many other points too which I invite you go check if you can find any shred of existence before PPYS events compared to what came later.
I anderstand you don't like those guys. But please don't talk things that are simply untrue.

[armnuke]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Armnuke, would you please read again what you have wrote? What is the nonsense of "they did not line their pockets"?
Neither Pavlik and majority in his group never participated in any political or economical groups or activities ( nakhakhirhrdaran being as political exemption). Those are true honest, patriotic Armenians you and me can ever be. Why are you distorting their true image? Do you have any evidence of any one of Sasna Tsrer member corruption or any wrong doing or a thought, please present it to us. I want to know after all.
Your reasoning of their actions, I would expect from someone like Surik, or Nemets or Lfic because that's al they think of, like "carrot that thinks whole world is carrot color", Lol.
You call their act as irresponsible. But every Armenian believes that Sasna Tsrer with their actions initiated the events that led to change of prime minister, initiation of economic "reforms", reforms in the army, moscow's sudden softening and quieting of Lavrov initiative, clearing and progress of arms supplying etc etc.
there is many other points too which I invite you go check if you can find any shred of existence before PPYS events compared to what came later.
I anderstand you don't like those guys. But please don't talk things that are simply untrue.

Taking over a police station with an armed assault and killing two policemen is a glimpse of what would follow if people of that sort ruled Armenia. What more evidence do you need? Yes I am reasoning their actions and it has nothing to do with the names you listed above. I am reasoning their actions because they resorted to violence as a means to be glorified.
As I said, we're stuck in the past, we love adrenaline, we are guided by our emotions rather than our logic, common sense, or simply our sane thinking.
The guy was a hero 20 years ago, so he should be fit to rule a country. Why? because the current rulers are unfit. Yea he was a hero and i'll carry him on top of my head if I see him. But there's a big big difference between being a hero on the battlefield and ruling a country.
I respect your opinion, and I'm gonna leave this discussion here.

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Taking over a police station with an armed assault and killing two policemen is a glimpse of what would follow if people of that sort ruled Armenia. What more evidence do you need?
As I said, we're stuck in the past, we love adrenaline, we are guided by our emotions rather than our logic, common sense, or simply our sane thinking.
The guy was a hero 20 years ago, so he should be fit to rule a country. Why? because the current rulers are unfit. Yea he was a hero and i'll carry him on top of my head if I see him. But there's a big big difference between being a hero on the battlefield and ruling a country.
Good luck then.

Who said the guy ruling country? Did Pavlic say a word about ruling the country? All I know is that he or his group only demanded Serjik's resignation.
Problem in our argument is you are going only one domentinal and putting one jacket on all events in last July or ones that I keep warning may come.
But truly, it is not matter if Pavlic or like will act. What about before those?
Actually the blind acceptance of situation and not even questioning everything, I find very emotional response.
It is also necessary to come out of emotions and keep discussing all those issues continuously. Border, economy, Serjik, Pavlik, everything.
I like you to tell me, what can possibly happen with our economy, border, army and etc in best and worst scenarios. Regardless of if we wont it to happen or not.
Do you think I like revolutions?
But many sleepless nights of thinking to see a real change and how, I keep always bumping to impossibility of our hardened Soviet stile and corrupt rulers and, Pavlik stands out. Lol

[armnuke]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Who said the guy ruling country? Did Pavlic say a word about ruling the country? All I know is that he or his group only demanded Serjik's resignation.
Problem in our argument is you are going only one domentinal and putting one jacket on all events in last July or ones that I keep warning may come.
But truly, it is not matter if Pavlic or like will act. What about before those?
Actually the blind acceptance of situation and not even questioning everything, I find very emotional response.
It is also necessary to come out of emotions and keep discussing all those issues continuously. Border, economy, Serjik, Pavlik, everything.
I like you to tell me, what can possibly happen with our economy, border, army and etc in best and worst scenarios. Regardless of if we wont it to happen or not.
Do you think I like revolutions?
But many sleepless nights of thinking to see a real change and how, I keep always bumping to impossibility of our hardened Soviet stile and corrupt rulers and, Pavlik stands out. Lol

He demanded the resignation of whoever by terrorizing the country. I dont care if it's pavlik, khatchik, tsovik or my very own brother.
If tomorrow some freedom fighter cant pay back or doesnt want to pay back his loans he would assault the bank? Or maybe send a car bomb or something? What are we going to glorify next? Child soldiers? Or suicide bombers?
Blind acceptance of the situation..you suppose.
I see it as blind acceptance of terrorism.
Long story short..you want change, be my guest.
But don't take up arms and try to tell me that's good.

[Vahram90]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Who said the guy ruling country? Did Pavlic say a word about ruling the country? All I know is that he or his group only demanded Serjik's resignation.
Problem in our argument is you are going only one domentinal and putting one jacket on all events in last July or ones that I keep warning may come.
But truly, it is not matter if Pavlic or like will act. What about before those?
Actually the blind acceptance of situation and not even questioning everything, I find very emotional response.
It is also necessary to come out of emotions and keep discussing all those issues continuously. Border, economy, Serjik, Pavlik, everything.
I like you to tell me, what can possibly happen with our economy, border, army and etc in best and worst scenarios. Regardless of if we wont it to happen or not.
Do you think I like revolutions?
But many sleepless nights of thinking to see a real change and how, I keep always bumping to impossibility of our hardened Soviet stile and corrupt rulers and, Pavlik stands out. Lol

Pavlik has attacked an opposition rally back in 2008 on order of Serjik. He is very ambivalent, has very good relations with some government members. The attack in July was very suspicious and without any logic. First they said they want Sefilyan to be released who was imprisoned before because of forming an armed group (with the aim of occupying state institutions). But they simultaneous proved that Sefilyan was guilty with this step because they said Sefilyan is their "commander" and that they have followed his order in taking the police station. Then they wanted the resignation of Serjik. But why the hell are you attacking a police station killing INNOCENT armenian policemen if you could attack Serjik himself??? There was no logic.
Generally it is a shame to attack state institutions if your country was at war some weeks ago and negotiations are going on. You are weakening the position of your country. I hate Serjik and every member of our government, I would demonstrate against him every day but I would never attack state institutions or kill other Armenians. There is a difference between changing something and destroying everything!

PS: Why I mentioned the attack on opposition rally in 2008... When Pavlik and his "patriotic" policemen-killers talked in front of the cameras they said everytime that they see no other way to change something, they have to do something to awaken the people. In 2008 the whole armenian people was on the streets and the only thing Pavlik has done was attacking his own people with stones and defending Serjik. I don't trust people like this.

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

He demanded the resignation of whoever by terrorizing the country. I dont care if it's pavlik, khatchik, tsovik or my very own brother.
If tomorrow some freedom fighter cant pay back or doesnt want to pay back his loans he would assault the bank? Or maybe send a car bomb or something? What are we going to glorify next? Child soldiers? Or suicide bombers?
Blind acceptance of the situation..you suppose.
I see it as blind acceptance of terrorism.
Long story short..you want change, be my guest.
But don't take up arms and try to tell me that's good.

Aren't you pulling it out of context by child soldiers, car bombs and suicide bombers?
What are you talking about?

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Pavlik has attacked an opposition rally back in 2008 on order of Serjik. He is very ambivalent, has very good relations with some government members. The attack in July was very suspicious and without any logic. First they said they want Sefilyan to be released who was imprisoned before because of forming an armed group (with the aim of occupying state institutions). But they simultaneous proved that Sefilyan was guilty with this step because they said Sefilyan is their "commander" and that they have followed his order in taking the police station. Then they wanted the resignation of Serjik. But why the hell are you attacking a police station killing INNOCENT armenian policemen if you could attack Serjik himself??? There was no logic.
Generally it is a shame to attack state institutions if your country was at war some weeks ago and negotiations are going on. You are weakening the position of your country. I hate Serjik and every member of our government, I would demonstrate against him every day but I would never attack state institutions or kill other Armenians. There is a difference between changing something and destroying everything!

PS: Why I mentioned the attack on opposition rally in 2008... When Pavlik and his "patriotic" policemen-killers talked in front of the cameras they said everytime that they see no other way to change something, they have to do something to awaken the people. In 2008 the whole armenian people was on the streets and the only thing Pavlik has done was attacking his own people with stones and defending Serjik. I don't trust people like this.

Vahram that is something I have not heard. Could you please post here the full story or article or eyewitness accounts so I will learn the details?
Maybe you have seen him doing so? Were you in Yerevan in that time?
I would like to explore the whole conduct of yerkrapahs that time, because Pavlik was a member too right?
What group stacked who?