Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Etchmiadzin]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Experiance gained by the dead has no value.

You wouldn't normally call them experianced soldiers ( or veterans ) but rather cannon fodder.

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Yeah but then again maybe we should have sided with Turkeys ally Germany during ww2 and wait for the turks to liberate us from the evil russians.

Nk war was not won because of armenians superior genetics, bravery or luck.

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Yeah but then again maybe we should have sided with Turkeys ally Germany during ww2 and wait for the turks to liberate us from the evil russians.

Nk war was not won because of armenians superior genetics, bravery or luck.

We should have been unified and dedicated to the idea of independence. Our communists should not have fought hand in hand with Russian, Georgian and Azeri Bolsheviks to destroy first republic.
Our nation had to continue with Sardarapat unity and spirit.
We had only a fraction of WWII losses in WWI and republic time (fighting men).
Being independent would not mean war with Nazy Germany.
Just partnering with Russia, England, US in WWII would keep us safe. And in case turkey tried to invade, half a million our army would have a good chance of withstanding. And this would later turn into liberating western Armenia.
Turkey was too weak and very fearfull of getting involved in WWII before Germany's victory over Russia. There are historical facts also that nazy germany did not want turkey expanding into Caucasus because it needed Caucasian oil for it's own economy and war effort.
This is just theories. But as long as we have vision, theories will become realities.
But we all know that our nation's philosophy and ambitions were far from it at that time.

At least now we should know what an asset an independent army is for us.

[londontsi]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Yeah but then again maybe we should have sided with Turkeys ally Germany during ww2 and wait for the turks to liberate us from the evil russians.

Nk war was not won because of armenians superior genetics, bravery or luck.

People fight and die for their own country.
People fight and die because they have been promised something, freedom, hayrenik something.
People fight and die because they fear the authorities.
People fight and die because they fear the consequences of the enemy winning the war.
Etc etc

Those men went to fight because of fear from the authorities.
They went to show their loyalty to the dictator Stalin.
They went with the euphoria created by the war propaganda.

It was never “you have to fight either for uncle Joe or Hitler”.
I doubt if ever “Azad yev angakh Hayastan” was their mind.

Just think by how much would our nation be bigger and stronger with their offspring.
I am afraid I do not see anything positive in exchange for their loss to our nation.

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

People fight and die for their own country.
People fight and die because they have been promised something, freedom, hayrenik something.
People fight and die because they fear the authorities.
People fight and die because they fear the consequences of the enemy winning the war.
Etc etc

Those men went to fight because of fear from the authorities.
They went to show their loyalty to the dictator Stalin.
They went with the euphoria created by the war propaganda.

It was never “you have to fight either for uncle Joe or Hitler”.
I doubt if ever “Azad yev angakh Hayastan” was their mind.

Just think by how much would our nation be bigger and stronger with their offspring.
I am afraid I do not see anything positive in exchange for their loss to our nation.

100% correct.
But our people went to die in WWII because they had no choice. Every Armenian's faith to live or die was in the hand of Moscow.
If we give away our army's control again, we will be giving away control of our own lives.
Now , joint air Defence or regiment is not giving away our army. Lot's of countries do this things all the time.
But we have to clearly establish the line which can never be passed.

[londontsi]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

.... , joint air Defence or regiment is not giving away our army. Lot's of countries do this things all the time.
But we have to clearly establish the line which can never be passed.

Hagop

The joint regiment already has clauses which oversteps the line you are suggesting.

The arrangement is it will be led by an Armenian commander in peace time.
During a conflict the command changes hands to a Russian commander.

A parallel argument was presented with NATO where during peacetime they are led by local commanders.
During war the command changes hands to US.

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[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Hagop

The joint regiment already has clauses which oversteps the line you are suggesting.

The arrangement is it will be led by an Armenian commander in peace time.
During a conflict the command changes hands to a Russian commander.

A parallel argument was presented with NATO where during peacetime they are led by local commanders.
During war the command changes hands to US.

.

Does that change of command apply to whole army or stays on particular regiment level? Same goes for air Defence. I would not like for any foreigner having control of our air defences.
But some cooperation may work for training, upgrading purposes like said in above post.
If we need to have Russian base in our country for protection against Turks, then we have to have some kind of joint coordination and preparation system. But that should never be done on account of our military sovereignty. I am not an expert in that. Hope our government knows what it's doing, though I don't thrust our government all the time.
Speaking of Russian base's purpose, it looses meaning in my eye sometimes. But as soon as I think of unsolved Artsakh conflict I realise that we want it there. But I also realise that if there will be peace with Azeris, immediately, I will not see the need to have Russians in our soil anymore.
I know, many of us may think this way.
So, there it goes, as long as Russia needs to have a base in Armenia, there will not be peace between us and Azeris.

[londontsi]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Does that change of command apply to whole army or stays on particular regiment level? Same goes for air Defence. I would not like for any foreigner having control of our air defences.
But some cooperation may work for training, upgrading purposes like said in above post.
If we need to have Russian base in our country for protection against Turks, then we have to have some kind of joint coordination and preparation system. But that should never be done on account of our military sovereignty. I am not an expert in that. Hope our government knows what it's doing, though I don't thrust our government all the time.
Speaking of Russian base's purpose, it looses meaning in my eye sometimes. But as soon as I think of unsolved Artsakh conflict I realise that we want it there. But I also realise that if there will be peace with Azeris, immediately, I will not see the need to have Russians in our soil anymore.
I know, many of us may think this way.
So, there it goes, as long as Russia needs to have a base in Armenia, there will not be peace between us and Azeris.

This debate answers many of the questions regarding the joint command agreements

.

[Haykakan]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Does that change of command apply to whole army or stays on particular regiment level? Same goes for air Defence. I would not like for any foreigner having control of our air defences.
But some cooperation may work for training, upgrading purposes like said in above post.
If we need to have Russian base in our country for protection against Turks, then we have to have some kind of joint coordination and preparation system. But that should never be done on account of our military sovereignty. I am not an expert in that. Hope our government knows what it's doing, though I don't thrust our government all the time.
Speaking of Russian base's purpose, it looses meaning in my eye sometimes. But as soon as I think of unsolved Artsakh conflict I realise that we want it there. But I also realise that if there will be peace with Azeris, immediately, I will not see the need to have Russians in our soil anymore.
I know, many of us may think this way.
So, there it goes, as long as Russia needs to have a base in Armenia, there will not be peace between us and Azeris.

You are slipping lately. The Russians are not there to keep azeris at bay. They are there to keep their bigger cousins at bay.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Etchmiadzin]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

"Our people have had the honor to be among those who founded the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Despite the innumerable errors, both large and small, it is an undeniable fact that only as a part of the USSR have our people been able to survive Turkish invasion, live within secure borders, and progress economically and culturally. In spite of the current criticisms expressed from every quarter, it is a fact that the inhabitants of the Armenian
Soviet Socialist Republic today enjoy a higher standard of living and more security than have Armenians at any other time in their three thousand year history. And all of this has taken place in the face of enormous challenges, including foreign invasion, economic isolation, civil war and an unimaginably costly World War"

-Monte Melkonian