Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Lori]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

It's laughable to think that iran is more trustworthy than Russia. Iranians are one of the most two-faced nations on earth, they will smile to your face, and be plotting behind their mind. Russia at least is straight-forward, and cuts out the BS.

You're probably forgetting the fact that modern Armenia exists today due to it's liberation from Iran by the Russians.

I'm not sure what past you're talking about, but Persians have historically been an enemy of the Armenian nation. Yes today things are different. But if Russia were out of the picture, you could bet it would be Turks and Persians vying for control over Armenia and the south Caucasus. Iran, like Turkey, has grand designs of its own over Armenia and the south cacucasus, and the Russian factor is the only thing keeping both at bay.

Russia has in the past put Russian lives at stake in defense of Armenia (albeit in furtherance of it's own interests). Russia is currently putting Russian lives at stake in Syria, as is Iran. But iran would never do that for Armenia.

Iran doesn't want to see a pan-turanic state stretching from Istanbul to the Caspian, if not beyond to central asia. That's why Armenia's existence is important, to put it mildly, for Iran. But Iran can never be an ally, we can never rely on them, and they will never out-right support us.

I don't want to dig up feuds from the olden days, but I saw this post by Artsakh. I think its of great earnestness that this becomes common understanding on this thread.

Artsakh jan, you are 100% on point. A lot of the parskahyes here won't understand, as they don't know Armenia history before 1850. Before 1880-1890 Hamidian Massacres, the relationship between Armenians and Turks was..."mellow". After the 1890s, relations got worse and it soon led to the genocide by Turk nationalists. That is the history we are all aware of and we all know.

Before 1890, the Turk was nothing but another Muslim group ruling over Armenian lands. The main foe of the Armenian nation was the Iranians. They have been uprooting us, slaughtering us, and stabbing us in the back for 2 thousand years straight. If we go back to the Ottoman-Persian Wars, the Persians undertook a genocide against Armenians and Georgians. (Shah Abbas deportations) The belief that the Iranians are on our side, or that they would side with us if war broke out, or that they are in anyway trustworthy is madness and must end. We only upkeep good ties with them for the sake of our economy and stability. We don't have any other choice.

This post was Artsakh's answer to Vishap90s post, which was nothing but a load of crap. (He was saying that Iran is more trustworthy than Russia )

The Russians have done more for Armenia than any other nation. At first, out of Christian solidarity and empire building. Now, out of sheer need for friends and a better position in the Caucasus. If the Russians did not beat the Iranians and kick them over the Arax river, then Armenia wouldn't exist. It was the Russian Army who avenged the Armenians of Ezurum throughout the genocide. The only case of betrayal was the Bolshevik invasion of Armenia. However, I don't think you can liken the Bolsheviks to the Russian imperialists. Their ideologies are unalike, as well as the ethnic makeup of both parties. Many Bolsheviks were even Armenian.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is...enough of the Iranophilia, its cancer. They are as untrustworthy as a thief, and they have shown it a lot lately. I believe it was Iran who let the Azeris go through their territory to strike poorly trained Armenian forces near the Iranian-Karabakh border? It takes a true mental gymnast to believe that the Iranians would side against fellow Shia Muslims and their own compatriots. (10 million Iranian citizens are still Turks)

The Turks we can deal with, they are straightforward in their hatred for Armenia. The Iranians are indeed two-faced backstabbers, even more than Georgians. I am 100% against have a bigger border with them, or having a border with them at all.

[burjuin]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Nagorno-Karabakh Defense Army

[Vahram90]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

The Russians have done more for Armenia than any other nation. At first, out of Christian solidarity and empire building. Now, out of sheer need for friends and a better position in the Caucasus. If the Russians did not beat the Iranians and kick them over the Arax river, then Armenia wouldn't exist. It was the Russian Army who avenged the Armenians of Ezurum throughout the genocide. The only case of betrayal was the Bolshevik invasion of Armenia. However, I don't think you can liken the Bolsheviks to the Russian imperialists. Their ideologies are unalike, as well as the ethnic makeup of both parties. Many Bolsheviks were even Armenian.

Ճիշտ է, որ արևելյան Հայաստանը գոյություն չէր ունենա, եթե ռուսները հարավային կովկասը չգրավեին։ Ճիշտ է նաև, որ պարսիկները միանշանակ մեզ ընկեր չեն։ Բայց ռուսների քայլերՆ էլ երբեք պայմանավորված չեն եղել որևե տեսակի համակրանքով հայերի նկատմամբ։ Դրա վառ ապացույցը հետևյալ պատմական փաստերն են.
ա. Ռոմանովների մոլի հայատյացությունը
բ. հայ-թաթարական ընդհարումները 1905-1907 թ., որոնք ցարական ռեժիմը կազմակերպեց
գ. ռուսների պահվածքը ցեղասպանության ժամանակ։ Հայերին արգելում էին վերադառնալ այն տարածքները, որոնք ռուսական վերահսկողության տակ էին։ Ցարի նպատակը Հայաստանը կազակներով բնակեցնելն էր։ Ռուսները Վանում ու Կարինում կանգնած, հայերին էվակուացնում էին։
դ. Շահ Աբասի քայլերը վերագրում եք Իրանին, սովետի քայլերը անջատում ռուս-հայկական հարաբերություններից։ Եթե խոսում ենք հայ-ռուսական հարաբերությունների մասին, ուրեմն պիտի սովետական շրջանն էլ ներառենք։
ե. ռուսների չեզոք պահվածքը ԼՂՀ հարցում և պատրաստականությունը անգամ պատերազմով Հայաստանին փոխզիջման դրդելու։

Ինչը վերաբերում է Իրանին, ապա Իրանն էլ մյուս բոլոր պետությունների պես իր շահերն է հետապնդում և էդտեղ գաղափարախոսական հակադրություն փնտրելը սխալ է։

[burjuin]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Lori]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Ճիշտ է, որ արևելյան Հայաստանը գոյություն չէր ունենա, եթե ռուսները հարավային կովկասը չգրավեին։ Ճիշտ է նաև, որ պարսիկները միանշանակ մեզ ընկեր չեն։ Բայց ռուսների քայլերՆ էլ երբեք պայմանավորված չեն եղել որևե տեսակի համակրանքով հայերի նկատմամբ։ Դրա վառ ապացույցը հետևյալ պատմական փաստերն են.
ա. Ռոմանովների մոլի հայատյացությունը
բ. հայ-թաթարական ընդհարումները 1905-1907 թ., որոնք ցարական ռեժիմը կազմակերպեց
գ. ռուսների պահվածքը ցեղասպանության ժամանակ։ Հայերին արգելում էին վերադառնալ այն տարածքները, որոնք ռուսական վերահսկողության տակ էին։ Ցարի նպատակը Հայաստանը կազակներով բնակեցնելն էր։ Ռուսները Վանում ու Կարինում կանգնած, հայերին էվակուացնում էին։
դ. Շահ Աբասի քայլերը վերագրում եք Իրանին, սովետի քայլերը անջատում ռուս-հայկական հարաբերություններից։ Եթե խոսում ենք հայ-ռուսական հարաբերությունների մասին, ուրեմն պիտի սովետական շրջանն էլ ներառենք։
ե. ռուսների չեզոք պահվածքը ԼՂՀ հարցում և պատրաստականությունը անգամ պատերազմով Հայաստանին փոխզիջման դրդելու։

Ինչը վերաբերում է Իրանին, ապա Իրանն էլ մյուս բոլոր պետությունների պես իր շահերն է հետապնդում և էդտեղ գաղափարախոսական հակադրություն փնտրելը սխալ է։

I'm glad you are not unwavering in your outlook on things. However, I cannot bring myself to believe that the Iranians are somehow much more willing to be less pragmatic and more friendly than Russia. What does Russia have to do to show their steadfastness? Nuke Baku and Ankara? They gave Armenia some of the most potent missile systems in the world. Free tanks, MLRS, and investment into the crippled economy. The Iranians let the Turks go through their territory to strike the Armenian rear guard. Thats beyond unfriendly.

I'm not sure your knowledge of WW1 is good enough either. I already spoke of Karin. The Russians destroyed the Ottoman Third Army as retaliation for what they did to the Armenians living there. The Armenians withstood slaughter in Van owing to the intervention of the Russian Army and Armenian volunteers from the Russian Empire. Nikolai Yudenich might as well be an honorary Armenian lol. The republic was betrayed by the national council, not by Russians or Bolsheviks, throughout the Turkish-Armenian War. Silikyan wanted to take back Kars, but the government and Corps command hindered him.

Truthfully, and I hate saying this as much as anybody else, if it wasn't for the Bolsheviks taking over Armenia and strengthening the border...Turkish reinforcements after the Battle of Sardarabad would have overrun Armenian positions in a counter-attack. Any bid to take back Kars would have been hard, since the Turks were reinforced right after the battle while Armenian Army's resources were pretty much gone.

[burjuin]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Armenian Army

[Shant03]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

A lot of the parskahyes here won't understand, as they don't know Armenia history before 1850. Before 1880-1890 Hamidian Massacres, the relationship between Armenians and Turks was..."mellow". After the 1890s, relations got worse and it soon led to the genocide by Turk nationalists. That is the history we are all aware of and we all know.

Wow. I had to login on my phone just to respond to this. Truly an idiotic statement since most Armenians who lived in Iran (I don't like the term parskahyes) understand their history very well. By making such a claim illustrates your lack of knowledge on the topic so let me educate you. When Armenians were brought to Iran they we're eventually (1700s) forced to convert to Islam. They refused and as a results thousands of them were killed until eventually the government decided to let them be. Everyone knows this, and until today most Armenians from Iran hate Persians/muslims and wants nothing to do with that country. Are you from Iran are you just generalizing based on what little you appear to know?

[Vahram90]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I'm glad you are not unwavering in your outlook on things. However, I cannot bring myself to believe that the Iranians are somehow much more willing to be less pragmatic and more friendly than Russia. What does Russia have to do to show their steadfastness? Nuke Baku and Ankara? They gave Armenia some of the most potent missile systems in the world. Free tanks, MLRS, and investment into the crippled economy. The Iranians let the Turks go through their territory to strike the Armenian rear guard. Thats beyond unfriendly.

You are mixing up some things.
Iranians never allowed to azeris to strike from their territory. Azeris did it simply. The population on the iranian side of Arax is azeri as well so it was not so difficult. By the way, this story is not confirmed, it could be a tale. Iran was the only country that was really interested in Armenians taking control over Fizuli, Jabrayil and Zangelan.
Russia has not to prove anything. They are acting according to their interests. I am the last person accusing others not being so stupid as we are But it is fatal to think that Russia invests in our economy or is strengthening our army because of goodwill. And their "investment" in our economy is not more than extortion by forcing us to sell all key industries or pipelines to them.

I'm not sure your knowledge of WW1 is good enough either. I already spoke of Karin. The Russians destroyed the Ottoman Third Army as retaliation for what they did to the Armenians living there. The Armenians withstood slaughter in Van owing to the intervention of the Russian Army and Armenian volunteers from the Russian Empire. Nikolai Yudenich might as well be an honorary Armenian lol. The republic was betrayed by the national council, not by Russians or Bolsheviks, throughout the Turkish-Armenian War. Silikyan wanted to take back Kars, but the government and Corps command hindered him.

I was talking about the general plan of tsarist Russia regarding western Armenia. My whole ancestry is from Van and everybody from the "saved western Armenians" can tell you the same. Russians evacuated Armenians from the russian controlled zone long before the withdrawal in 1917. The general plan of the Romanovs was within the frame of "Armenia without Armenians". They wanted western Armenia as a cossack colony. Don't forget: The tsar was extremly anti-armenian. And if you read Abovyan and other contemporary armenian literature, you'll see that armenian patriots didn't like the russian rulers even if they were happy to be freed from persian (muslim) rule.

Truthfully, and I hate saying this as much as anybody else, if it wasn't for the Bolsheviks taking over Armenia and strengthening the border...Turkish reinforcements after the Battle of Sardarabad would have overrun Armenian positions in a counter-attack. Any bid to take back Kars would have been hard, since the Turks were reinforced right after the battle while Armenian Army's resources were pretty much gone.

Sardarapat was in 1918, Bolshevik invasion in 1920. After the Battle of Sardarapat we managed to take back Kars, Ardahan and Surmalu in 1919. So I don't understand the logic of this part of your statement. We lost the war against the turks in 1920 because we were under attack from three sides. We defended our borders against turks but bolshevik invasion was too much.

Bolsheviks taking over Armenia and strengthening the border

What are you talking about????????? Donating armenian land to turks means strengthening the border?

[Lori]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

You are mixing up some things.
Iranians never allowed to azeris to strike from their territory. Azeris did it simply. The population on the iranian side of Arax is azeri as well so it was not so difficult. By the way, this story is not confirmed, it could be a tale. Iran was the only country that was really interested in Armenians taking control over Fizuli, Jabrayil and Zangelan.
Russia has not to prove anything. They are acting according to their interests. I am the last person accusing others not being so stupid as we are But it is fatal to think that Russia invests in our economy or is strengthening our army because of goodwill. And their "investment" in our economy is not more than extortion by forcing us to sell all key industries or pipelines to them.



I was talking about the general plan of tsarist Russia regarding western Armenia. My whole ancestry is from Van and everybody from the "saved western Armenians" can tell you the same. Russians evacuated Armenians from the russian controlled zone long before the withdrawal in 1917. The general plan of the Romanovs was within the frame of "Armenia without Armenians". They wanted western Armenia as a cossack colony. Don't forget: The tsar was extremly anti-armenian. And if you read Abovyan and other contemporary armenian literature, you'll see that armenian patriots didn't like the russian rulers even if they were happy to be freed from persian (muslim) rule.



Sardarapat was in 1918, Bolshevik invasion in 1920. After the Battle of Sardarapat we managed to take back Kars, Ardahan and Surmalu in 1919. So I don't understand the logic of this part of your statement. We lost the war against the turks in 1920 because we were under attack from three sides. We defended our borders against turks but bolshevik invasion was too much.


What are you talking about????????? Donating armenian land to turks means strengthening the border?

1. That is ridiculous. Iran has border guards and military divisions in Iranian Azerbaijan. You are telling me that those division commanders sat on their asses while Azerbaijani military divisions were coming into their territory? You are telling me they shunned an invasion by Azeri divisions? Come on man, I know you aren't that dumb.

2. I never said Russia did it out of goodwill, I said they did it out of the need for friendly nations to their south. That is a goal of realpolitik.

3. Russia has not proved anything? Is the deliver of Iskander nothing to you? No other nation has Iskander missile systems other than Russia and Armenia. The Poles shake in their boots at the mention of the system's name. The Russians are the only thing standing between Yerevan and the Turkish Army. There is no way Armenia can shield all of its borders.

4. The "Armenia without Armenians" was a mere proposal by Slavic nationalists within the Russian foreign ministry and military. It was never true policy or implemented. General Yudenivich made this proposal amidst the genocide, the land was already without Armenians and was taken by the Russian Empire. You seriously misunderstand the history of the Russians plan for Western Armenia.

5. Which Tsar? Armenia was in the empire for over 200 years. Every Tsar had policies unlike the last. Alexander II had a friendly relationship with the Finns while others suppressed them. Nobody under the Tsars was successful, mainly if you weren't Slavic. That was one of the driving reasons behind the Soviet revolution. There was never equality and the Russian Empire was a backwards agrarian nation while states like Germany industrialized and became strong world powers.

6. You are right, I confused up the Caucasus campaign with the Turkish-Armenian War, since the actual troop movements and gains made by the Turks were pretty much the same. Seize Kars, Gyumri, etc. Forgive me.

7. Just so you know, I do believe the Treaty of Kars is void and meaningless, and we should immediately make claims on our former territories. However, if there was no partitioning by Bolshevik troops, then the Turks could have taken all of Armenia in 1920. Its much like the partitioning of Poland. If the Soviet Union had not taken eastern Poland, then the Poles, Jews, Belarusians, and Ukrainians there would have been exterminated by the Nazis through the planned Eastern genocide.

[Lori]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Wow. I had to login on my phone just to respond to this. Truly an idiotic statement since most Armenians who lived in Iran (I don't like the term parskahyes) understand their history very well. By making such a claim illustrates your lack of knowledge on the topic so let me educate you. When Armenians were brought to Iran they we're eventually (1700s) forced to convert to Islam. They refused and as a results thousands of them were killed until eventually the government decided to let them be. Everyone knows this, and until today most Armenians from Iran hate Persians/muslims and wants nothing to do with that country. Are you from Iran are you just generalizing based on what little you appear to know?

You know that there are strong Iranophiles in this thread who make those Muslim sociopaths seem like Armenian-loving butterflies blowing in the wind. Don't shun their existence. I do have some extended family from Tabriz, actually. They live in Russia now. I don't recall any bid to convert Iranian Armenians to Shia Islam, but I wouldn't put it passed Shah Abbas to do something like that. That was kind of his thing. I believe most Armenians who were deported, died throughout the deportations. I reckon nearly half of the 300,000 Armenians deported died.