Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Most Armenians are politically immature emotional creatures, and just don't want to understand....

And the wise, politically-mature, unemotional demi-god that is Tigranakert understands everything.

[Tigranakert]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

And the wise, politically-mature, unemotional demi-god that is Tigranakert understands everything.

Look who we have here, whiny belly whose posts are always off-topic. Anyways, thank you. It's not difficult to be a semi-God, nor a God for that instance, compared to you, Scottish kitty.

[Eddo211]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Some Armenians need to loose that slave mentality....it was Armenian blood that liberated Artsakh, not Russians. People need to stop dishonoring our warriors by siding with our enemies line that Russia does the fighting for Armenia, not Armenians.

Most countries in today's world are dependent on others for their national interests and security. Russia is an important ally (so is Armenia to Russia) but to say we owe them our independance or we cant even wipe our own butts without them is to live in past fears and in a victim mentality. LOOSE IT NOW!!
This is not how we liberated Artsakh and this is not the mentlity on how we protect it now. You must believe in yourself or you will always fail and be controlled. You guys talk about unity?....Russia and US don't want Armenian unity.

President Sarkisian's respond to youths question on recovering Western Armenia and Ararat:

"Everything depends on the young generation. Every generation has some goal to achieve. The current generation defended and liberated a part of Armenian land. If the future generation makes much effort then Armenia will be one of the best states in the world.

Generally, the power of the state is not defined through its territory. The state should be modern, secure and prosperous. The Armenian people are able to achieve their goals. And they will if they believe in it"

[Eddo211]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

holy crap! Su-25 is one mean beast! it's great that AAF is milking every juice off of it!

Even Americans admit that is a much better platform than their A-10.

[Haykakan]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I did not see anyone say that Russia does the fighting for Armenia. Yes without Russia we do not exist as a country that is a fact! You can be as self coonfident as you like but this is only one factor which needs to be based on reality. Without the Russian base the Turcks would have gotten rid of us long ago. Without Russian weapons we do not fight nor win any war. These are hard core facts that no words will change. Armenia is about as independent as utah is. This is reality-we do not live in a dashnak wet dream.This is why i like Tigranakerts writings because he points out what seems to be not that obvious to some of you. We are lucky that the azeris were inept cowards and we had brave and capable soldiers. The other turks to our west are neither inept nor cowards and are way stronger then the azeris-do not let one victory go to your head we are still in grave danger and our only hope is still Russia.

[Eddo211]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I did not see anyone say that Russia does the fighting for Armenia. Yes without Russia we do not exist as a country that is a fact! You can be as self coonfident as you like but this is only one factor which needs to be based on reality. Without the Russian base the Turcks would have gotten rid of us long ago. Without Russian weapons we do not fight nor win any war. These are hard core facts that no words will change. Armenia is about as independent as utah is. This is reality-we do not live in a dashnak wet dream.This is why i like Tigranakerts writings because he points out what seems to be not that obvious to some of you. We are lucky that the azeris were inept cowards and we had brave and capable soldiers. The other turks to our west are neither inept nor cowards and are way stronger then the azeris-do not let one victory go to your head we are still in grave danger and our only hope is still Russia.

Armenia has earned its independence. Getting Russian weapons is no different than Turkey getting US/Israeli weapons, just because its at lowered price doesn't change that fact. Russian base in Armenia is not there strickly to deter Turkey (a NATO member) from invading Armenia. Just like we don't want Turkey overwelming Armenia, Russia and Iran don't want Turkey's expansion in the region, military base or not. The facts that you mention are your facts, not everyones. Nobody here is underestimating the Turks, but you seem to underestimate the Azeris.....you say one victory against Turks, I count three. Sarikamish, Sartarabad, Artsakh.

The road to Western Armenia is through the East.....and with this old Armenian mentality we will never acheive it. Its been 20 years now with our independence and the new generation needs to drop the old shackles and look to the future rather than hide behind the Russian skirt and stay stagnet forever. Tigranakert makes a good point that we need to inflitrate further into Russian power houses but we should not bow to Russians and put all our faith in them.

Our faith is in our hands.....what we do with it its by our hands.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

1- Who said Russia was not important, and the closest relations are not in our national interest?
2- What's the point in showting laud again and again Russia is our savior? Did anybody said we must turn our back to Russia to begin with?
3- The value of Russia is so evident that it is not even a matter to argue, and I did not saw anybody denying it. If nothing else, the origin of our arsenal, since the end of XIX century is mainly if not purely Russian made or conceived...

But to have strategic relationship, alliance, you need to be two. And when problem there is, it is never from our side
(put aside the LTP episode, due mainly to stupid illetracy, and some manipulation from the west) that it comes.
And the blindly slave mentality is only favoring/making the ground for betrayal.

If we look back from the origins of our relationship, we will see that things turned nasty for us, each time Russia felt too much self confident, on the expansion mode in the Caucasus. When it felt comfortable enough to afford a 'cheap' honeymoon at our expense with the turks.
And when things turn really nasty for them, and the turks become too self confident, Russia at the brink of collapse (retreat to the Volga basin), realises the only option/foothold left...
No need to detail, these are pretty well known facts.

But if this is the thema, then let us look on the other side of the story:
1- How much does Russia need us? It turns out, that without us, their border will be at best Krasnodar/Volgograd. A fact they tend to forget too often.
2- They provide us with arms? Holychit! And what else should they do? I do not want to go into unnecessary details here, but even financially, this costs them nothing. They are even gaining money from the whole story. If you compare our 'cost' to the benefits we provide, we must be the cheapest ally Russia ever had, anywhere in the world, at anytime...
And this is true for our other allies (Europe and the US) too. But for those, our value is not vital, for Russia it is.
Without Gyumri, they will have to sail the to the Black sea only via the Don!

3- Why are we obliged to look in Black/White . Russia/West? Things are not this way, if ever they where.
4- If you look at the situation attentively enough, you will realyse, that our existence is in the interest of virtually every important center of power, apart the Turks, and according to their sick perception Georgians (in this case, their perception is only due to their lack of analytical mind, and instinctive hatred against everything Armenian, but there is no need to be Einstein to see how much our existence benefitted and benefits Georgia).

Apart from Russia, we are vital for Iran, very important for the USA in its policy to control Turkey, quite important for the EU, in its policy to keep Turkey at bay, and even very interesting for new actors on the rise, like China and India, in our capacity to make trouble in the turkish world...

Even if we do not want to realyse the facts, these empires, most of the time competitors, if not enemies, do actually agree to tacitly cooperate in our case, for more a decade now. In fact, at least the 3 major powers, Russia/EU/US do their best, to help/encourage/force us to keep the hard line, to not return any land..., not for our sake, of course. (remember how LTP was ousted, when he had the bright idea to kiss turk's ass, with the vocal or tacit approval of all players)
Incidentally Iran's interest does coincide. So whether coordinated, or not, all major players do agree to make us 'at best'.
The only player that tried to force concession, was Mr Medvedev/Russia (incidentally in a turkish honeymoon, feeling strong enough after 888..., but the US + kababakhian hasdagoghoutioun managed to sabotage its plans, by frightening Serjik in 2008/2010)
Unfortunately, they tend (as every good business tycoon), to cut costs at best... and like to invest the minimal.

Here is the problem.
If each one of them does not pay/offer/equip us more, it is due to our inability to ask/force them to;
And here comes the slave mentality.
We are so grateful of being spared Deir Zor, that we are 'grateful' of what they afford...

To end my point: Russia is a very important partner, but a very unreliable, and often shortsighted/overconfident one.
But Russia is not the only partner we have, or may have.
Natural/historical/subconscious russophilia in our minds and souls, is not the better instinct in our, or even russian hands, if we consider long term russian national intereststs. But it often plays in the hand of the most corrupted, shortsighted, un-national elites of Moscow, permitting/encouraging betrayal....

[ninetoyadome]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Baku Protests Armenian ‘Arms Acquisition’ From Moldova

Russia - A BM-27 Uragan (Hurricane) multiple-launch rocket system at the St Petersburg Artillery Museum.
14.10.2011
Emil Danielyan
Azerbaijan has expressed serious concern over Armenia’s reported purchase from Moldova last month of rockets and other weapons worth millions of dollars, saying that it will complicate a peaceful resolution of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict.

Elnur Aslanov, head of an analytical unit at President Ilham Aliyev’s administration, on Friday described this and other arms acquisitions by Yerevan as a “serious destabilizing factor” in the region.

“The policy on Nagorno-Karabakh pursued by Armenia testifies to the destructive position of that state in the region,” Russian and Azerbaijani news agencies quoted him as telling journalists in Baku. “Any arms acquisition, any increase in the number of weapons in the region certainly does not lay the groundwork for establishing peace and stability and, on the contrary, impedes that.”

Aslanov was commenting on reports that large quantities of weapons and ammunition that were shipped from Moldova to Armenia by an Armenian cargo plane on September 13-14.

According to Moldovan media, the secret deal was formalized this summer through a Latvian intermediary firm, Latspetsexport. The government of Moldova has essentially confirmed that information after it sparked a political scandal in the former Soviet republic later in September.

The Moldovan news agency Omega last week claimed to have obtained copies of the Chisinau government’s contracts with Latspetsexport worth $3.3 million. It said they envisage the sale of several types of Soviet-made anti-tank and other rocket systems along with thousands pieces of ammunition used by them.

Those allegedly included a dozen BM-27 Uragan (Hurricane) multiple-launch rocket systems that have a firing range of up to 35 kilometers. “According to authorities in Moldova, some of these weapons have already been shipped to Armenia,” reported Omega.

Official Yerevan has declined to deny or confirm the reports. “In the interests of national security, details regarding the quantity and types of weapons and the party selling them are not subject to publication,” Davit Karapetian, the Armenian Defense Ministry spokesman, said on September 23.

The Azerbaijani government reacted negatively to the reported arms deliveries. Moldova’s ambassador to Azerbaijan, Igor Bodiu, was summoned to the Foreign Ministry in Baku to provide explanations. Bodiu afterwards described the deal as an “unfortunate mistake” that damaged his country’s relations with Azerbaijan.

Together with Ukraine and Georgia, Moldova and Azerbaijan are part of the GUAM grouping of four ex-Soviet states which has acted as a counterweight to Russia in the larger Commonwealth of Independent States.

Aliyev was reported to raise the matter with Moldova’s Prime Minister Vladimir Filat when the two met in Warsaw on the sidelines of a European Union summit on September 30. Omega quoted Filat as saying that he was invited to visit Baku “in order to continue the discussion.”

Armenia’s Deputy Foreign Minister Shavarsh Kocharian dismissed the Azerbaijani protests as “aggressive whining” later on Friday. “And this is natural because Baku has to explain to its own people where the billions [of dollars,] which are constantly trumpeted about from various podiums and supposed to be spent on military procurements, have ended up and why its policy of military blackmail in [peace] negotiations has failed,” Kocharian said in a statement.

Azerbaijan has spent billions of dollars in oil revenues on buying weapons which it hopes will enable it to eventually win back Karabakh and other Armenian-controlled territories. It plans to boost military spending to $3.3 billion this year, up from $2.15 a year ago. By comparison, Armenia’s defense budget for 2011 is projected to reach only $400 million.

The Armenian side has sought to offset this spending gap mainly through close military ties with Russia that entitle it to receiving Russian weapons at discount prices or even free of charge. A new Russian-Armenian defense agreement signed in August 2010 commits Moscow to helping Yerevan obtain “modern and compatible weaponry and (special) military hardware.”

The Armenian military demonstrated some of its new weaponry, including S-300 air-defense systems, during a high-profile parade staged in Yerevan on September 21. It also for the first time put on display 9K72 surface-to-surface ballistic missiles that are known in the West as Scud-B.

http://www.azatutyun.am/content/article/24360120.html

[gokorik]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[QUOTE=Vrej1915;324115]

Russia is a very important partner, but a very unreliable, and often shortsighted/overconfident one.

Unreliable? Who has been more reliable than Russia? Who was the one that countered the Turkish military buildup on our boarders in 1993? Was it the U.S.? Was it France, was it Iran?

In mid-August, 1993, Armenians massed a force to take the Azeri regions of Fizuli and Jebrail, south of Nagorno-Karabakh proper and Turkish Prime Minister Tansu Çiller responded by sending thousands of Turkish troops to the border and demanding that Armenia pull out of Azerbaijan's territories. Russian Federation forces in Armenia however countered their movements and thus warded off any possibility that Turkey might play a military role in the conflict.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia...rkey_relations


There is more info the buildup herehttp://books.google.com/books?id=7J-...%20iii&f=false

If it wasn't for Russia's presence and actions, Armenia would have found it's self in an extremely horrifying situation. When you talk to Armenian that lived in Armenia during the war, you can see the intense emotion in them when they talk about the time that Turkey was massing it's troops. It's easy for you to call Russia unreliable when you haven't experienced the fear of of war in your country.

remember the S-300....

You are right about the S-300 sale to Azerbaijan, but I believe the Russians made the sale with the knowledge that Armenia would be supplied with the Iskander missile. This missile CAN disable the S-300 PMU2. In the end Azerbaijan wastes 300 million dollars, which could have been spent on buying more tanks, aircraft and artillery etc, Armenia still has the ability to utilize it's air force and missile forces, and Russia gets to sell it's weapons to both sides.

[Haykakan]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Eddo while i admire yuor patriotism im afraid that you suffer from the same dillusions the dashnaks have suffered for a long time and it has cost us millions of lives and all of western Armenia. I am not ok with history repeating itself because we are too stubborn to learn from it. Our importance to russia is neglidgible compared how important russia is to us. The stakes for us and them are so different that our relationship can hardly be called a partnership. You remember how quickly Russia formed a strategic base or two in abxazia and ossetia? It took them a couple ofdays! GettingArmenia might take them a couple of weeks! If we lose russia youthinkthe usa is gona step into stop turckey from forming the gas lines and trade routes it and isreal drewll over? You think Iran is going to go all out and fight the turcks the hrias and the americans? My assessments are not based on nostelgia but facts and i would argue that you and many like you are indeed dwelling on nostelgia by nitpicking a victory or two from the oceans of defeat we have suffered. Reality is a xxxxx and wearing rose collored glasseswiont change it.
Vrej the very same facts that you point out prove the point i am making which is that we need russia way more then it needs us. It can and will abandon us if it feels it is in its interest and that is why we must strengthen our influence in russia. The fact that we deal with other countries in no way changes the fact that we are dependent on russia for our security. I couldnt believe those idiots demonstrating in the streets to break away from the soviet union and what happened to our country in the insueing years was a result of that stupidity. Sure we won a war but we lost most of our talented people who left to wherever they could, our children had no electricity, no runing water, no heat, little food...over 20 years later and we have yet to return to soviet levels of living standards. The truth is we did not realize how good we had it during the soviet days in the 80s and the west used LTP against us AND ALMOST DESTROYED US. Weather we like it or not there is no replacing Russia for us while Russia has way more options then we do. People like to think themselvesas more intelligent, more attractive, more successful then what we really are because it is human nature to do so but such overevaluations of ones own resources and abilities can land you in some big trouble. The fact is that we are a tiny country with littlein the form of resources and we are surroundedby hoards of turcks hell bent on destroying us. Armenia faces demographic problems while the turcks rise in numbers. Yes we are russias pet and no amount of dashnak nostelgia or chest pounding is going to change that. It is important to acknowledge reality and deal with it because there no therapists to take care of Armenia if she gets raped again by the turcks and the west. We need to build a country yet most diasporans wont even visit it. There are things we can do to develop Hyastan but fate is not only in our hands like some of you like to think.