Families under Pressure

[anileve]

Originally posted by Baron Dants Well sorry we didn't ask.. maybe we knew what MSF is..
Besides that, yes, it's a very important project and there should be more locals involved.

As for the "silly road" in Artsakh, it will play a big role in developping businesses there, and will strengthen Armenia-Artsakh relations. Oh, and it could also be instrumental if ever Artsakh is ever attacked. We need that road.

That is not to say that other programs should be ignored. Armenianow's Christmas edition talks about people in need, and different organizations that come to help. Out of curiosity, are you in any such organizations?

Jes I am . My dear Baronchik, the last thing Armenian Fund needs is more funding, and they conduct these silly telethons to raise more wealth than they already have. The president of the Armenian Fund is a billionaire by the way, yet somehow the organization neglects to offer some aid to the smaller organizations whose main focus is to improve economic conditions of the low income, poverty stricken class. Which I personally think is a priority. Besides, ironically they are building that "silly road" in Karabagh, yet most of the residents are leaving for Yerevan.

Have you looked into MSF Baronchik? I was thinking of getting involved in raising awareness of its existence in the Armenian Community since I've noticed that an extremely small percentage of them are aware of MSF's purpose. And if monetary contribution is made it should be directed to them rather than churches and other larger programs. Recently there was a toy drive and I was so happy to see that the toys will go directly to the children in the villages of Armenia rather than through ambiguous channels.

I stopped making any financial contributions unless I have proof that the money will be applied as stated.

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by anileve Jes I am . My dear Baronchik, the last thing Armenian Fund needs is more funding, and they conduct these silly telethons to raise more wealth than they already have. The president of the Armenian Fund is a billionaire by the way, yet somehow the organization neglects to offer some aid to the smaller organizations whose main focus is to improve economic conditions of the low income, poverty stricken class. Which I personally think is a priority. Besides, ironically they are building that "silly road" in Karabagh, yet most of the residents are leaving for Yerevan.

Have you looked into MSF Baronchik? I was thinking of getting involved in raising awareness of its existence in the Armenian Community since I've noticed that an extremely small percentage of them are aware of MSF's purpose. And if monetary contribution is made it should be directed to them rather than churches and other larger programs. Recently there was a toy drive and I was so happy to see that the toys will go directly to the children in the villages of Armenia rather than through ambiguous channels.

I stopped making any financial contributions unless I have proof that the money will be applied as stated.

Agreed about knowing where your money ends up. I also agree that the Himnadram should channel some money to these more specific programs.

What I will organize soon is fundraising in order to provide the Children's rehab Center (where we worked this summer) with the funds necessary to renovate the filtering and heating system of their swimming pool. It's a very big and nice pool, but they haven't used it for a couple of years due to this problem. The doctor also told us that it is very beneficial for the rehab program, and would be very useful to have again.

As for the road in Karabakh, it joins Armenia and Artsakh, and I am a firm believer that it is a priority. Not the only one though, of course..

[jahannam]

Originally posted by anileve

And this Armenian Fund is doing nothing but building some silly road in Karabakh.

you people amaze me.
i don't know what to say.

[Arvestaked]

I do believe that road is important (I've even been on it). The problem with that project is that the government officials are pocketing all of the spyurkahye money.

[anileve]

A road may be important but should certainly not be a priority, just imagine if the funding that this project received was to go to the programs that help families with severe economic difficulties? Imagine using that money to improve schools in the outskirts of Armenia or to provide free lunches for children forced into beggary or to provide families with decent shelter rather than collapsing and foul-smelling barns poverty forces them to live in. Wouldn’t that be a much more significant cause?

The interest is a pure nationalistic one to build this road, since it is a claim on territory rather than a concern for the well being of the people in the country. I am sorry if you disagree but speaking to a few individuals involved in the project my opinion has been cemented with scrutiny.

[Arvestaked]

That's true. But you are assuming there is no aid going to the other things you mentioned and that is not true. I personally helped fix up a school. Those projects exist too.

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by anileve A road may be important but should certainly not be a priority, just imagine if the funding that this project received was to go to the programs that help families with severe economic difficulties? Imagine using that money to improve schools in the outskirts of Armenia or to provide free lunches for children forced into beggary or to provide families with decent shelter rather than collapsing and foul-smelling barns poverty forces them to live in. Wouldn’t that be a much more significant cause?

The interest is a pure nationalistic one to build this road, since it is a claim on territory rather than a concern for the well being of the people in the country. I am sorry if you disagree but speaking to a few individuals involved in the project my opinion has been cemented with scrutiny.

I think what you forget is that along with there territory, there are also hundreds of thousands of Armenians living there. Do they deserve any less? Or are they not part of the country?

[anileve]

That is not true Arvestaked, I am aware that there are other programs which exist to provide precisely that type of support, I have mentioned their existence in the previous post. However, not a significant amount of aid is delegated to them, not in the least as much as the amount that the Armenian Fund is so successful at obtaining. Baron, I understand your view, but once again, our claim over Karabagh is a purely nationalistic one. It is a political agenda which I won’t touch base on, but it is very beneficial to the governmentS more than the residents I should say. I know that my claims are quite presumptions and many do not take them on too well, but I do have theories to believe so. Residents of Karabagh are migrating to Yerevan more and more, besides they can hardly take care of one of the smallest countries in the world with a continuously declining population, how can they take care of a territory that has always been a hot zone for a political platform?

Karabagh has been handed over to Azeris by Stalin and his buddies, perhaps they should start lobbying Russia to return what is rightfully theirs. Makes more sense to me if you ask, however that is not a convenient approach and a very dangerous one, since Armenia has positioned itself as a beneficiary of Russia who is their closest ally right now. So you see it is all political and not much is dependent on the concern for the people if it clashes with international politics. Nationalism which shows it’s ugly head by promoting the definition of patriotism by measuring the importance of procession of land, more importantly than the economic condition of the civilians.

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by anileve That is not true Arvestaked, I am aware that there are other programs which exist to provide precisely that type of support, I have mentioned their existence in the previous post. However, not a significant amount of aid is delegated to them, not in the least as much as the amount that the Armenian Fund is so successful at obtaining. Baron, I understand your view, but once again, our claim over Karabagh is a purely nationalistic one. It is a political agenda which I won’t touch base on, but it is very beneficial to the governmentS more than the residents I should say. I know that my claims are quite presumptions and many do not take them on too well, but I do have theories to believe so. Residents of Karabagh are migrating to Yerevan more and more, besides they can hardly take care of one of the smallest countries in the world with a continuously declining population, how can they take care of a territory that has always been a hot zone for a political platform?

Karabagh has been handed over to Azeris by Stalin and his buddies, perhaps they should start lobbying Russia to return what is rightfully theirs. Makes more sense to me if you ask, however that is not a convenient approach and a very dangerous one, since Armenia has positioned itself as a beneficiary of Russia who is their closest ally right now. So you see it is all political and not much is dependent on the concern for the people if it clashes with international politics. Nationalism which shows it’s ugly head by promoting the definition of patriotism by measuring the importance of procession of land, more importantly than the economic condition of the civilians.

I'm sorry to say, but I don't follow at all.

Why don't we just merge with France or some other country then? We won't have any territory, but we might be better off economically.

Artsakh has been the home of Armenians for centuries, but you seem to be in denial of that. You make it sound as if it's some sort of competition between Armenia and Azerbaidjan.

And who are the "they" that should go lobby to Russia? I didn't really understand that part, but maybe I don't really want to anymore..

[anileve]

Originally posted by Baron Dants I'm sorry to say, but I don't follow at all.

Why don't we just merge with France or some other country then? We won't have any territory, but we might be better off economically.

Artsakh has been the home of Armenians for centuries, but you seem to be in denial of that. You make it sound as if it's some sort of competition between Armenia and Azerbaidjan.

And who are the "they" that should go lobby to Russia? I didn't really understand that part, but maybe I don't really want to anymore..

Merging with France, I don’t see how I was implying that, but it makes one wonder how would France benefit from that? What exactly does Armenia have to offer to the rest of the world, besides more problems for other governments to solve? Besides, you have proven to me how majority think; it is indeed the territory not the well being of the people that is the main concern, which in my opinion is rather wrong. What good is acquiring more territory if you cannot provide for the existing territory that is already in your procession?

Baronchik, I never denied that Artsakh has been the home of Armenians for centuries, although it was continuously invades by many other nations throughout history such as Arabs, Persians, Seljuk Turks, Mongols, new tribes of nomadic Turks and again the Persians. And on the contrary of what you believe it is a competition between Armenia and Azerbaijan. To prove my point further you have to look at the economy of both countries and take into consideration the natural resource that is significant to each and it is important to also examine history closely to understand the situation fully. I’ll let you be the judge, please read the following:

“The economic condition in both republics is disastrous; Armenia has suffered deeply from a blockade initiated by Azerbaijan and joined by Turkey, which led to a critical shortage of energy; and Azerbaijan has so far been unable to use its rich oil and natural gas resources to normalize the economy of the country.”

And this

“With Russia's own oil production plummeting disastrously, Moscow is extending its influence over the oil riches of its Caspian Sea neighbors with the approval of an oil contract by the Azerbaijani parliament.

How interesting, Karabakh has always been in possession of the oil riches, why I ask you should they give up the territory that can bring them so much wealth, which country in their rightful mind release the most valuable resource they are in possession of? Especially if it was handed over to them by the Soviet bastards? As much as it would be a moral thing to do, governments often overlook morality for the sake of the economic benefit such is the nature of politics. To further demonstrate the events that decided the fate of Karabakh please continue reading further:

“The Karabakh question went before the Transcaucasia Bureau of the Communist Party for settlement. The Bureau decreed on June 3, 1921 that Nagorno Karabakh belonged to Armenia. Narimanov threatened an upsurge of anti-Soviet activity from the side of Azeri-Turk nationalists if Nagorno Karabakh were given to the Armenian SSR. The Transcaucasian Bureau reaffirmed its decision on July 4, much to the dismay of the Azeri-Turks. But at this point Stalin, then Commissar for Nationality Affairs, intervened. On the next day, in Stalin's presence, the Transcaucasian Bureau reversed its decision without debate. The Bureau resolved to "leave Nagorno Karabakh inside the frontiers of Azerbaijan, giving it a large measure of regional autonomy, and having as its centre the town of Shusha" (Walker, 1991, p. 108). This decision conformed to Stalin's divide-andrule policy for nationalities. By placing the Armenians of Karabakh inside Azerbaijan as 'hostages' the Armenian SSR would be less likely to act contrary to the wishes of the Kremlin. Likewise, an 'autonomous' Armenian enclave within Azerbaijan could be activated as a pro-Soviet fifth column in the event of disloyalty by the Azeri-Turks.”

As you can see this hate that we hold so dear should really be directed towards the rightful villain – the Russians, since they took it upon themselves to determine the ownership of the territory to further enslave both of the countries to ensure their dependence and loyalty to the Soviet Republic. Naturally both sides took a blow and not just one party. Again we are faced with that conniving game of politics where the casualties are innocent and aloof citizens used as instruments to reach the governmental agenda. And yet one more excerpt for you to digest, that might clear some misconceptions and this is the saddest one of all, I happen to live through these events and remember them very vividly.

“Azerbaijani Radio reports two Azeri youths killed in Karabakh. Thus Azeris start retaliating against Armenians in Azerbaijan, and the ethnic confl ict, as Yérasimos states, followed its own logic.5 For what could be a more logical place for retaliatory violence than Sumgait, Baku’s dark industrial suburb, with a large Armenian minority, where on top of everything huge numbers of furious and fr ustrated Azeri refugees had been resettled? The official figures show 32 dead (26 Armenians and 6 Azeris) for the three days, 27-29 February, that the unrest went on, although Armenian sources multiply the numbers of (Armenian) casualties by a factor of a t least ten. The fact that the Soviet army and Interior ministry troops were in the area did not change anything; in fact the army stood by and watched the pogrom take place, and may even have initiated it, as is persistently argued by Igor Nolyain in his thought-provoking article.6 According to Nolyain, the Soviet forces did not stay at neglecting to prevent the bloodshed, but deliberately seeked to create a conflict between the two communities, both in Armenia and in Azerbaijan. This was done thro ugh the control of the media, by spreading exaggeratedly provocative statements on both sides, and by deploying criminals from Soviet prisons in Sumgait to initiate the pogrom. Whatever the real level and nature of Russian involvement, it seems clear in r etrospect that the Russians did not have to do much to set both Armenia and Azerbaijan on fire. If their aim was, as it seems, to destabilize the area by creating an inter-communal war which would weaken both governments and enable Moscow to reestablish c ontrol over the area, they were only wrong in the sense that they did not know what kind of a monster they were giving birth to. Just like the child who plays with fire soon looses control of what he started, with unknown consequences, the Azeri-Armenian conflict soon slipped out of the Russians’ hands. In fact, the mutual hatred had escalated to such a point that any spark would initiate the conflict. And the spark which would make the process of escalation of the ethnic conflict irreversible, was indeed the Sumgait pogrom. After Sumgait, it seems as there was no way to bring about a de-escalation of the conflict, and in any case this was made impossible by the wobbling approach of the Soviet authorities.”

By the way Baronchik, do you still think that Armenia flourished under the Soviet rule and was able to elevate its culture? I call this being slowly stripped of any culture Armenia had and Russians somehow “accidentally” always managing to be present throughout every conflict Armenia had. Russians were the most dangerous enemy of all, the worse one anyone one can have - the conniving, back stabbing and powerful instigator. Now they are our main ally, ahhh the sweet irony how I loath thee while you laugh at our naïve ness.