10 Major Concerns Regarding Armenia-Turkey Protocols

[KanadaHye]

Re: 10 Major Concerns Regarding Armenia-Turkey Protocols

Give them up so easily you say? It has been a century and instead of the mighty rightious diaspora along with its awsome powers delivering justice to the armenian people we are having to accept unfair protocals just so the country can survive. You keep forgetting that this and most other major decisions are not made by Armenia but by the big powers interested in the region. No rational leader would ignore their wishes because this would lead to suicide for the country. If Russia and America are telling you open the border or else then what the hell do you expect the armenian leader to do exactly? These powers don't care about us getting justice yet many here think genocide recognition by one will bring us salvation or something. It is time for the diaspora to reevaluate its priorities because its tactics have failed miserably and along with the goals they all need to be changed for the good of the armenian people and nation.

Maybe we should call up China and tell them to beat up on Russia, the US and the EU

Davidian: Turkish-Armenian Protocols: Reality and Irrationality

“The Protocol on the Establishment of Diplomatic Relations Between the Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey” officially announced in Berne, Yerevan, and Ankara on Aug. 31, 2009, has been brought to center stage and not without controversy. In order to fully appreciate and rationally analyze this yet-to-be-ratified document that is meant to serve as the basis for further dialogue between the parties, its origins and accepted norms of international behavior regarding it must be understood. The document exists, it is not going away, and undoubtedly will be ratified by the Armenian parliament in short order. The Turkish parliament may delay ratification. While this article cannot cover every aspect in depth, the attempt is to provide a foundation to understand what may or may not be transpiring between Armenia and Turkey and why.

This Protocol is the culmination of at least five years of discussions between Armenians and Turks at different official levels. Beginning circa 2003, talks were underway between then Turkish and Armenians foreign ministers Abdullah Gul and Vartan Oskanian respectively. While these talks appeared to be non-productive, in 2005, Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan suggested instituting a joint historical commission to study what was termed “claims of genocide.” Armenia and Turkey are talking for many reasons; if for no other reason they are neighbors, irrespective of the outstanding historical issues. Why might Armenia deign talking with Turkey? Without talking, nothing can be addressed between the two parties, including issues not related to the Protocol, and these are the parties that are the internationally recognized as players, in spite of an extensive Armenian Diaspora.

Neither Armenia nor Turkey is in a position to unilaterally act completely independent of the interests of larger regional or international states. Subordinate states have to constantly re-examine their interests in order to adjust with those of major powers with the aim of maximizing bargaining stand while understanding (and attempting not to capitulate to) the interest of the other parties. In general, this precludes these states from engaging in zero sum inanity, such as demanding an all-or-nothing state of affairs.

If the combined political pressure from Russia, U.S., and EU “strongly suggests” not only Armenia consider discussing with the Turks lifting their border blockade but attempt to discuss historical issues, it is not acceptable or even in Armenia’s interest to simply say “no.” In a crude analogy, Serbia’s Milosevic responded with the refrain “no, no, no” in response to the demands of major powers to end the campaign of ethnic cleansing regardless of the claim “we didn’t start it.” His country was bombed and its infrastructure heavily damaged.

Equivalent pressure was put on the Turkey to begin serious talks with Armenia in spite of Turkish demands that Armenian forces leave Nagorno-Karabakh and its environs, and that Armenia end support for genocide recognition before discussions can become substantive.1 Interestingly enough, neither of these Turkish demands is stated in the Protocol.

It's a pretty long read... feel free to read the rest from the link below

http://www.hairenik.com/weekly/2009/...irrationality/

[Haykakan]

Re: 10 Major Concerns Regarding Armenia-Turkey Protocols

Maybe we should call up China and tell them to beat up on Russia, the US and the EU

Davidian: Turkish-Armenian Protocols: Reality and Irrationality

“The Protocol on the Establishment of Diplomatic Relations Between the Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey” officially announced in Berne, Yerevan, and Ankara on Aug. 31, 2009, has been brought to center stage and not without controversy. In order to fully appreciate and rationally analyze this yet-to-be-ratified document that is meant to serve as the basis for further dialogue between the parties, its origins and accepted norms of international behavior regarding it must be understood. The document exists, it is not going away, and undoubtedly will be ratified by the Armenian parliament in short order. The Turkish parliament may delay ratification. While this article cannot cover every aspect in depth, the attempt is to provide a foundation to understand what may or may not be transpiring between Armenia and Turkey and why.

This Protocol is the culmination of at least five years of discussions between Armenians and Turks at different official levels. Beginning circa 2003, talks were underway between then Turkish and Armenians foreign ministers Abdullah Gul and Vartan Oskanian respectively. While these talks appeared to be non-productive, in 2005, Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan suggested instituting a joint historical commission to study what was termed “claims of genocide.” Armenia and Turkey are talking for many reasons; if for no other reason they are neighbors, irrespective of the outstanding historical issues. Why might Armenia deign talking with Turkey? Without talking, nothing can be addressed between the two parties, including issues not related to the Protocol, and these are the parties that are the internationally recognized as players, in spite of an extensive Armenian Diaspora.

Neither Armenia nor Turkey is in a position to unilaterally act completely independent of the interests of larger regional or international states. Subordinate states have to constantly re-examine their interests in order to adjust with those of major powers with the aim of maximizing bargaining stand while understanding (and attempting not to capitulate to) the interest of the other parties. In general, this precludes these states from engaging in zero sum inanity, such as demanding an all-or-nothing state of affairs.

If the combined political pressure from Russia, U.S., and EU “strongly suggests” not only Armenia consider discussing with the Turks lifting their border blockade but attempt to discuss historical issues, it is not acceptable or even in Armenia’s interest to simply say “no.” In a crude analogy, Serbia’s Milosevic responded with the refrain “no, no, no” in response to the demands of major powers to end the campaign of ethnic cleansing regardless of the claim “we didn’t start it.” His country was bombed and its infrastructure heavily damaged.

Equivalent pressure was put on the Turkey to begin serious talks with Armenia in spite of Turkish demands that Armenian forces leave Nagorno-Karabakh and its environs, and that Armenia end support for genocide recognition before discussions can become substantive.1 Interestingly enough, neither of these Turkish demands is stated in the Protocol.

It's a pretty long read... feel free to read the rest from the link below

http://www.hairenik.com/weekly/2009/...irrationality/

Like this is exactly what i have been saying but...... Well except the china part hehe.

[KanadaHye]

Re: 10 Major Concerns Regarding Armenia-Turkey Protocols

Like this is exactly what i have been saying but...... Well except the china part hehe.

I thought China might want to test out some of that military might that they paraded around today.... hehehehe

[Davo88]

Re: 10 Major Concerns Regarding Armenia-Turkey Protocols

I believe that Armenia can do better than simply caving in to the others’ demands. I also believe we Armenians can do better than accepting that our country caves in to their demands. This reminds me of the time when the Armenian leadership made peace with the Young Turks. Remember what happened afterward? I am not saying that another genocide will happen, but I hope that we do not repeat this mistake especially under these conditions.

Anyway... About China: how about they leave the EU and US alone and test their might on Turkey itself? lol

[bell-the-cat]

Re: 10 Major Concerns Regarding Armenia-Turkey Protocols

Many people here are like parrots repeating the same thing over and over again without thinking about what it means.

But that is what an Armenian message board is for!

[Anoush]

Re: 10 Major Concerns Regarding Armenia-Turkey Protocols

But that is what an Armenian message board is for!

By all means cat, if you don't care for it then go away to other green pastures. By by.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: 10 Major Concerns Regarding Armenia-Turkey Protocols

By all means cat, if you don't care for it then go away to other green pastures. By by.

What a pretty parrot - here's a sunflower seed for you.


2000 posts!

[Anoush]

Re: 10 Major Concerns Regarding Armenia-Turkey Protocols

The point of a organised diaspora is to maintain the armenian heritage and culture and to help Armenia by building a personal relationship with her.

It's funny this coming from you. You never ceased for every opportune moment to put the Diasporans down claiming that we must not speak, feel, talk out, worry about the blunders that our motherland's government is doing; simply because we live here in the Diaspora and they live in the Motherland. Hmmm.... and whatever blunders that the government makes we should accept it blindfoldedly and never to worry or talk out about it, because we have it made in here outside of RA and they are there suffering. And I wonder why they are suffering in there our beloved Hayrenagits Armenians. Lets see;

+ Serge Sargsyan and all his crew have monopolized the whole of Armenia by having his familiar relatives, friends, acqaintances and his "helou hebadags" making them his number one officials and that way controlling the whole Republic of Armenia.

+ By doing the above he is therefore not only controlling the people but the Armenian Senate and Congress as well. The end result is whatever he wants it shall pass as 'fait-a-complit'. He then will see to it that it does. NO DEMOCRACY whatsoever.

+ Huge amounts of monies from Kirk Kirkorian and Hovnanians and others have been given as gifts to Armenia and to RA's government officials. What did they do? A good part of the monies have been pocketed by the government officials and their relatives, acquaintances and themselves. Thus there is a certain radius in the middle of Yerevan who are very wealthy and spoiled. The rest of the people are hungry, most have become uneducated for that matter, and hungry people cannot fight or raise their heads against the opressive and uncaring government who does nothing to the intelligent youth to prosper and shine for the country. The hungry people are left mostly uneducated and not knowing their history or much else for that matter, are oblivuous to the facts. Who does? The knowledgeable and the educated Diaspora. Because they know better and most are still very patriotic and feel for Armenia and Armenians' future and the sovereighnty.

+ If Sargsyan was sooooo very concerned of opening the borders with our number one enemy to help the poor Armenians economically, he should have and could have done it, by helping the country, BTW; opening up jobs, employment, caring towards the hungry and the uneducated people by pouring all the monies from the wealthy Diasporans into the country and into the mouths of the people, and NOT into HIS own mouth.

Now as if he wants to bring in a little bit of more money into the country by opening up the border with our number one enemy who are lying to his and our faces and hysterically laughing at us, all Armenians in the face of the world. If Sargsyan wanted to make Armenia prosper, he could have and should have done it by not stealing the monies that were abundantly pouring into the country but rather pouring it in every which way into the hands and the mouths of the vast Armenian people in Armenia.

[Anoush]

Re: 10 Major Concerns Regarding Armenia-Turkey Protocols

What a pretty parrot - here's a sunflower seed for you.


2000 posts!

Isn't it so ironic that your 2000 post should be the evil devil's sign. That's what your heart is and that's what you can produce.

[Haykakan]

Re: 10 Major Concerns Regarding Armenia-Turkey Protocols

It's funny this coming from you. You never ceased for every opportune moment to put the Diasporans down claiming that we must not speak, feel, talk out, worry about the blunders that our motherland's government is doing; simply because we live here in the Diaspora and they live in the Motherland. Hmmm.... and whatever blunders that the government makes we should accept it blindfoldedly and never to worry or talk out about it, because we have it made in here outside of RA and they are there suffering. And I wonder why they are suffering in there our beloved Hayrenagits Armenians. Lets see;

+ Serge Sargsyan and all his crew have monopolized the whole of Armenia by having his familiar relatives, friends, acqaintances and his "helou hebadags" making them his number one officials and that way controlling the whole Republic of Armenia.

+ By doing the above he is therefore not only controlling the people but the Armenian Senate and Congress as well. The end result is whatever he wants it shall pass as 'fait-a-complit'. He then will see to it that it does. NO DEMOCRACY whatsoever.

+ Huge amounts of monies from Kirk Kirkorian and Hovnanians and others have been given as gifts to Armenia and to RA's government officials. What did they do? A good part of the monies have been pocketed by the government officials and their relatives, acquaintances and themselves. Thus there is a certain radius in the middle of Yerevan who are very wealthy and spoiled. The rest of the people are hungry, most have become uneducated for that matter, and hungry people cannot fight or raise their heads against the opressive and uncaring government who does nothing to the intelligent youth to prosper and shine for the country. The hungry people are left mostly uneducated and not knowing their history or much else for that matter, are oblivuous to the facts. Who does? The knowledgeable and the educated Diaspora. Because they know better and most are still very patriotic and feel for Armenia and Armenians' future and the sovereighnty.

+ If Sargsyan was sooooo very concerned of opening the borders with our number one enemy to help the poor Armenians economically, he should have and could have done it, by helping the country, BTW; opening up jobs, employment, caring towards the hungry and the uneducated people by pouring all the monies from the wealthy Diasporans into the country and into the mouths of the people, and NOT into HIS own mouth.

Now as if he wants to bring in a little bit of more money into the country by opening up the border with our number one enemy who are lying to his and our faces and hysterically laughing at us, all Armenians in the face of the world. If Sargsyan wanted to make Armenia prosper, he could have and should have done it by not stealing the monies that were abundantly pouring into the country but rather pouring it in every which way into the hands and the mouths of the vast Armenian people in Armenia.

The Armenian government does not call the shots, Russia does. I dont know how many times i have to explain this. The money sent by the diaspora has been put to good use to build roads, waterlines, schools....We are lucky as hell Russia has a interest in our country because neither the dashnaks nor anyone else could have allowed it to survive. You can argue all you like but facts remain facts no matter how you look at them.