Is this the end of the Diaspora?

[Anoush]

Re: Is this the end of the Diaspora?

"my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."
John F. Kennedy

Yes very truthful, very wise and very justified words; however people and government must work and mesh together in a more fair and a more democratic and a just fashion. In short, a government, any government must exercise fairness, justness and have democracy. A government must show great patriotism and be a good role model towards their citizens. And the people on their part should be giving, patriotic, and then they will trust and love their government and work with them hand in hand. However trust and goodwill must also come from the government and the people will follow and work and support their government.

[Anoush]

Re: Is this the end of the Diaspora?

I said it above and I shall sicinctly repeat, that by all means if half of Diasporans which are 3.5 millions in population repatriated, they will undoubtedly bring more wealth, Western and Middle-eastern countries savvy, their experiences, their patriotism, their hard earned intelligence, their social and economical knowledges and more. I am for it of course, but I also state that the government of today in RA must also change dramatically for the better. They should be much less totalitarian, less corruption and exercise more fairness, justness and yes more patriotism towards their people that form the country, their country as well as the people. Yes they can control the country and the people; but with more fairness, justness and reward the geniuses of the land by providing them good paying jobs so that they in turn will be able to give the very best to their country.

[Haykakan]

Re: Is this the end of the Diaspora?

Alpha when you use Ara Baliozian as a reference you automaticaly discredit any argument you are trying to make. He has the rational of a 4 year old child and his writings prove it. So you say you would rather go live in Artsagh then Hayastan well ok then whats stoping you from doing that? By refusing to participate in what today is Hayastan you very much are discounting what we have today. You havent tried a single thing ever yet you are ready to pass judjment and discredit anything having to do with hayastan. Your mentality is exactly what divides our people. Instead of going to Hayastan and participating,geting involved with your own people and nation you automaticaly discredit any such scenerio based on what so n so said. Hayastan is all we have left and it should be treasured and nourished not discredited and avoided. There is not, never was, and probably never will be a perfect state anywhere on this earth. Every nation has serious problems and the way its people "and this means you and every other armenian" deal with such problems determines the kind of nation you have. The sooner you pull your head out of the sand the sooner you will see that there is never a better time then the present to participate in the building of your country!

[Lucin]

Re: Is this the end of the Diaspora?

People will always find excuses to not move back to Armenia...

Not every Diasporan can move back to Armenia. We don't know what's going on in people's lives so it'd be quite unrealistic to leave a life/career behind for an unknown future in Armenia. But at least they can do the least, whatever they can.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Is this the end of the Diaspora?

What happened when people took Stalins invitation to repatriate to "Armenia"? They were shunned by the people and persecuted by the government. How is todays "Armenia" any different? The mafia does today what the KGB did then (not that there's a difference between the two).

These are facts.

Almost all diasporans have roots in todays nation of Turkey, NOT Armenia. The only exception are those who fled Armenia since glastnost. Almost all "Hayastancis" have roots to "western Armenia" before the genocide.

These are facts, not opinions.

I'm not trying to discount what we have today. What I am saying is that there's nothing wrong with me being true to my roots and demands, regarding nationalism, and wanting the same as Monte Melkonian, Antranig Pasha, Dro and many others, which is a repatriation of Western Armenia!

Besides, Artsakh is where I'd rather go than anywhere in Hayastan.

One last thought...does my OPINION make me less Armenian? The only type of Armenian I discriminate against is the ones with a supremacy complex. Go read some Ara Baliozian for heavens sake and learn about our real history about how much of a pawn you are to propaganda...there's not enough for me to say and I'm not going to go on the offense in that regard.

What kind of Bs are you posting? So following your logic no Armenian lived in RA and Artsakh and every one came from westen part. Let me tell you that this BS. There were enough people to have 50000 soldiers in the Russian army. And no they weren't coming from Western Armenia.

Non of your heroes would talk like our enemies are doing. Do you know why Antranig and Dro weren't living in Hayastan. it was because it had turned a SU republic. That's the only reason, those heroes are turning in their graves after this kind of Bs.

And you know what the republic of Armenia and Artsakh(which is a part of the republic) don't need a guy like you. Don't ever go there because the locals will kick your ass so hard you'll never dare to set a foot in holy Armenian land.

And you think you have the right to tell the Armenian government how it can act and call the president a traitor. The way I see it, it's the other way around. After all this Anti-Hayastan BS I've seen you have no right to even tell that the sky over Armenia is blue.

[apachi]

Re: Is this the end of the Diaspora?

Alpha when you use Ara Baliozian as a reference you automaticaly discredit any argument you are trying to make. He has the rational of a 4 year old child and his writings prove it. So you say you would rather go live in Artsagh then Hayastan well ok then whats stoping you from doing that? By refusing to participate in what today is Hayastan you very much are discounting what we have today. You havent tried a single thing ever yet you are ready to pass judjment and discredit anything having to do with hayastan. Your mentality is exactly what divides our people. Instead of going to Hayastan and participating,geting involved with your own people and nation you automaticaly discredit any such scenerio based on what so n so said. Hayastan is all we have left and it should be treasured and nourished not discredited and avoided. There is not, never was, and probably never will be a perfect state anywhere on this earth. Every nation has serious problems and the way its people "and this means you and every other armenian" deal with such problems determines the kind of nation you have. The sooner you pull your head out of the sand the sooner you will see that there is never a better time then the present to participate in the building of your country!

Well Said, Haykakan, Very Well Said.

[AlphaPapa]

Re: Is this the end of the Diaspora?

Haykakan, where do you live? And if you repatriatized to Armenia, what did you sacrifice?

[Kasa]

Re: Is this the end of the Diaspora?

Anoush,

Good points you make but how's a government supposed to change unless people demand it? Governments in democratic systems are not an entity separate from people but an extension.

Now, I agree that the government of Armenia is not be the most democratic or fairly elected (i.e. - without vote rigging, bribing, etc) but still it is an improvement over absolute dictatorship which the Soviet system was, there, the government was separate from people and people's wishes (although there is something to be said about "people get the government they deserve". If people in Russia and other Soviet republics really didn't like the system I believe they could have changed it, but that's a different discussion).

So how can we hope or expect the government of Armenia to be more fair and just and all the other requirement you state in your posting except by moving to Armenia, joining and living in the society there, and by participating in the political process there, demand changes from the government.

We can't wait for the government to first change then we move, we have to make and bring about the change. Otherwise, it will continue being in the hands of the people it is in right now, and be ruled by the same mentality and ideologies that it is being guided under currently.

[Haykakan]

Re: Is this the end of the Diaspora?

Haykakan, where do you live? And if you repatriatized to Armenia, what did you sacrifice?

I went over all that already go read earlier posts. Unfortunately many in the diaspora think like you and i have changed many of their minds alrerady. It doesnt take a genious to figure out what i am saying but it does take the firing of a synapse or two.

[Anoush]

Re: Is this the end of the Diaspora?

Anoush,

Good points you make but how's a government supposed to change unless people demand it? Governments in democratic systems are not an entity separate from people but an extension.

True, unfortunately the soviet system made our people in there to continue the previous regime and the corruption trend. I'm not saying to all of them; but the soviet regime didn't allow the people to exercise patriotism and read about their history. All of these amounted to the state that is today and how the government was elected by the people; at least the previous two governments. This last one as you said below was voted by rigging, bribery and so forth.

Now, I agree that the government of Armenia is not be the most democratic or fairly elected (i.e. - without vote rigging, bribing, etc) but still it is an improvement over absolute dictatorship which the Soviet system was, there, the government was separate from people and people's wishes (although there is something to be said about "people get the government they deserve". If people in Russia and other Soviet republics really didn't like the system I believe they could have changed it, but that's a different discussion).

You know, as I gave the idea above, quite unfortunately the soviet regime created the people of today by not letting them move freely, BTW; to read and probe into their history books, to openly become patriotic as they were by no means allowed publicly to declare =except a few= and all of that created for the people to be less patriotic, less knowledgeable in their own history, and no knowledge of how to move politically in today's world, simply because the country was not theirs. They couldn't rule it. That is why both the government and the people are in the state that they are in now. It's unfortunate but I think I am right in most respects.

So how can we hope or expect the government of Armenia to be more fair and just and all the other requirement you state in your posting except by moving to Armenia, joining and living in the society there, and by participating in the political process there, demand changes from the government.

You're correct, when new people (Diasporans) move into the country they will certainly make a difference. Not right away, but in time and perhaps sooner than anticipated. Especially if they repatriate in greater numbers as some are more knowledgeable in their own history, are usually exempt from corruption and hopefully will come with their hard earned dollars, pounds or whatever. But it requires a greeaaaat deal of sacrifice on Diaspora's behalf to both repatriate under these circumstances and to not leave afterwards. Realistically, the way the people's mindset is in the homeland are give me give me (not that I blame the people, no) and the government is certainly non democratic and corrupted and pretty selfish. Therefore, you need Diasporans en grande masse to move in to RA to make that difference on their behalf and to better educate the people in there their way or be able to mingle with them. Then they'll be able to choose the government of their choice. I am of course speaking idealistically now; but you have to find a way to move not just a few Diasporans at a time but at least a quarter or a third of them at a time. Just like it happened in the 40's and late 40's when Diasporan Armenians moved to Soviet Armenia from the middle east and Europe.

We can't wait for the government to first change then we move, we have to make and bring about the change. Otherwise, it will continue being in the hands of the people it is in right now, and be ruled by the same mentality and ideologies that it is being guided under currently.

I know and you're right; but how can you make at least a third of the Diasporans to move in at the same time. Because that's what is necessary so that Diasporans wouldn't feel turned off and go back again where they came from as it happened in the past.