Ancient population of Armenians

[jgk3]

Re: Ancient population of Armenians

My parents are bolsahye... Their families were (and are) mostly indifferent towards Armenia, they just don't consider it to be their country, beyond something to point to on a map when someone asks them where it is.

When I'm referring to Turkish Armenians kissing ass, and being "faithful" out of fear, I'm referring to their behavior during the genocide especially... When all the men were conscripted into the army and butchered, and the women, elderly and children were routed from their homes and sent on death marches to the desert without their knowing. What a pitiful sight... We were slaughtered like animals, because we didn't want to believe that the CUP could do such a thing. Instead, we thought that through our good will, our situation would improve...

The Armenians in Artsakh, Syunik and Nakhitchevan knew better by 1918 than to share the same fate... thank god. And Sardarabad... the first moment where we as a nation actually got our xxxx together and fought as an alternative to genocide.

There was nothing cunning about our behavior. We just came to our senses at some point, but it took way too long to, way way too long... We lost half our population before waking up and realizing you have to fight if you want to keep your life in that situation.

Thanks for explaining in more detail the situation behind the Seljuks, I'll admit I'm not well read about early Turkic migrations and conquest, but I know something about how hordes come out of Central Asia, and that calling it a "barbarian" phenomena explains nothing about them or why they are successful.

[levon]

Re: Ancient population of Armenians

My parents are bolsahye... Their families were (and are) mostly indifferent towards Armenia, they just don't consider it to be their country, beyond something to point to on a map when someone asks them where it is.

That's unfortunate

When I'm referring to Turkish Armenians kissing ass, and being "faithful" out of fear, I'm referring to their behavior during the genocide especially... When all the men were conscripted into the army and butchered, and the women, elderly and children were routed from their homes and sent on death marches to the desert without their knowing. What a pitiful sight... We were slaughtered like animals, because we didn't want to believe that the CUP could do such a thing. Instead, we thought that through our good will, our situation would improve...

Please, do read up before you make such statements. Your statements seem to imply that Armenians never organized into any defensive forces until it was too late. Here is a quick read for ya.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

Don't forget, Armenian irregular forces formed before the onset of the Genocide, in the late 19th century when Ottomans started mass killing campaigns. It is true that prior to the genocide many Armenians were disarmed, however, there were others that formed irregular units and protected Armenian villages from insurgent turkish soliders who were tasked with disarming the population. Had the irregular units not formed, there wouldn't have been any survivors.

[jgk3]

Re: Ancient population of Armenians

That's unfortunate



Please, do read up before you make such statements. Your statements seem to imply that Armenians never organized into any defensive forces until it was too late. Here is a quick read for ya.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

Don't forget, Armenian irregular forces formed before the onset of the Genocide, in the late 19th century when Ottomans started mass killing campaigns. It is true that prior to the genocide many Armenians were disarmed, however, there were others that formed irregular units and protected Armenian villages from insurgent turkish soliders who were tasked with disarming the population. Had the irregular units not formed, there wouldn't have been any survivors.

I know what you're saying... But what irks me is the tiny percentage of all Armenians who choose to form those irregular units. That is what is making me say "such statements".

The problem with our revolutionary movement was always that it needed a lot more participation. If instead of 6000 Armenian fedayeen, we had maybe 15,000... things would've been a lot better... The fact that we couldn't amount to more than 6000 actually doing something to protect the lives of villagers, is a reflection of the kind of mentality of hopefulness that Turkey would improve if we stayed loyal.

The more irregular units... the more we would've survived.

[SevSpitak]

Re: Ancient population of Armenians

My parents are bolsahye... Their families were (and are) mostly indifferent towards Armenia, they just don't consider it to be their country, beyond something to point to on a map when someone asks them where it is.

When I'm referring to Turkish Armenians kissing ass, and being "faithful" out of fear, I'm referring to their behavior during the genocide especially... When all the men were conscripted into the army and butchered, and the women, elderly and children were routed from their homes and sent on death marches to the desert without their knowing. What a pitiful sight... We were slaughtered like animals, because we didn't want to believe that the CUP could do such a thing. Instead, we thought that through our good will, our situation would improve...

...

There was nothing cunning about our behavior. We just came to our senses at some point, but it took way too long to, way way too long... We lost half our population before waking up and realizing you have to fight if you want to keep your life in that situation.

What about the Van resistance which established the Neo-Vaspurakan (Western Armenian) Administration?

There is one thing that's 100% sure, we were 50% responsible for the genocide. Like you say, we weren't united. We chose to trust the CUP (which had recently given minorities better rights) than to trust our own fellow Armenians' warnings from already sacked villages. Even our church didn't want to believe anything like a full-scale massacre was going on. We probably would have had at least a portion of Western Armenia if all Armenians united and fought off the Ottomans followed by Ataturk.

[jgk3]

Re: Ancient population of Armenians

What about the Van resistance which established the Neo-Vaspurakan (Western Armenian) Administration?

Was this under the Russian occupation of Van?

[Federate]

Re: Ancient population of Armenians

There was more than just Van where we resisted. Not the best quality articles but they were there. In short period of time, we were able to rally whatever was left after disarmament and conscription and give a last stand...

...in Zeitun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitun_...nce_%281915%29

...in Musa Ler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_Dagh

...in Urfa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urfa_Resistance

...in Shabin-Karahisar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabin-...sar_Resistance

[SevSpitak]

Re: Ancient population of Armenians

Was this under the Russian occupation of Van?

At first, yes, but during the Bolshevik revolution, they were left to stand guard on their own. They did their best but it was taken down and 200,000 Armenians (survivors of the genocide who had stayed/returned to fight back for their lands -- if I'm not mistaken) fled to Russian Armenia (which was also fighting against the Ottomans, Georgians and Neo-Tatar "Azerbaijanis" -- on a side note, it was at this time the Islamic Musavat party of South Eastern Caucasus was persuaded by their linguistic counterparts, the Osmanli Young Turks, to join the Pan-Turanist ideology, and unite all nomad and non-nomad Turkophones of Greater Iran by absorbing the identity and name of the Azarbaijanis -- in other words, the first ever [fabricated] "Azerbaijani" state in the Caucasus, and the first time all Turkophones in Greater Iran let go of their tribal identity and adopted a unified ethnic identity.)

[SevSpitak]

Re: Ancient population of Armenians

...in Musa Ler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_Dagh

I'm not sure, but to my knowledge, Musa Dagh (the book and film) was a semi-fictional story which was based on true events, like Titanic and the Jack/Mary love story thing (I forget her name, I think it was Mary... anyway who cares, you get the point). I'm not positive if there really was a resistance in Musa Dagh, or if the story was a compilation of events that occurred in other resistances. I'll have to check that out.

The story was actually written by a Gew.

Edit: OK, my Titanic analogy is valid. The book is a semi-fictional story based on true events. The Musa Dagh resistance did happen, just not exactly like in the book/movie.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Ancient population of Armenians

What about the Van resistance which established the Neo-Vaspurakan (Western Armenian) Administration?

There is one thing that's 100% sure, we were 50% responsible for the genocide. Like you say, we weren't united. We chose to trust the CUP (which had recently given minorities better rights) than to trust our own fellow Armenians' warnings from already sacked villages. Even our church didn't want to believe anything like a full-scale massacre was going on. We probably would have had at least a portion of Western Armenia if all Armenians united and fought off the Ottomans followed by Ataturk.

We weren't united then and especially after... I always wonder why for such a small population of people, we have SO MANY DIVISIONS.

"The division of the two Catholicossates stemmed from frequent relocations of Church headquarters due to political and military upheavals.

The division between the two Sees intensified during the Soviet period and to some extent reflected the politics of the Cold War. The Tashnag (Dashnag) Party, a nationalist political party that had dominated the independent Republic of Armenia from 1918 to 1920 and was active in the diaspora, saw the Church and clergy, with its worldwide headquarters at Echmiadzin in the Soviet Republic of Armenia, as a captive Communist puppet, and accused its clergy in the US as unduly influenced by Communists, particularly as the clergy were reluctant to participate in nationalist events and memorials that could be perceived as anti-Soviet.

On December 24, 1933, a group of assassins attacked Eastern Diocese Archbishop Levon Tourian as he walked down the aisle of Holy Cross Armenian Church in the Washington Heights neighborhood of New York City during the Divine Liturgy, and killed him with a butcher knife. Nine Tashnags were later arrested, tried and convicted. The incident divided the Armenian community, as Tashnag sympathizers established congregations independent of Etchmiadzin, declaring loyalty instead to the See based in Antelias in Lebanon. The division was formalized in 1956 when the Antelias (Cilisian) See broke away from the Echmiadzin See.[27]

The separation has become entrenched in the United States, with most large Armenian communities having two parish churches, one answering to each See, even though they are theologically indistinguishable. There have been numerous lay and clergy efforts at reunion, especially since the fall of the Soviet Union."

[SevSpitak]

Re: Ancient population of Armenians

We weren't united then and especially after... I always wonder why for such a small population of people, we have SO MANY DIVISIONS.

"The division of the two Catholicossates stemmed from frequent relocations of Church headquarters due to political and military upheavals.

The division between the two Sees intensified during the Soviet period and to some extent reflected the politics of the Cold War. The Tashnag (Dashnag) Party, a nationalist political party that had dominated the independent Republic of Armenia from 1918 to 1920 and was active in the diaspora, saw the Church and clergy, with its worldwide headquarters at Echmiadzin in the Soviet Republic of Armenia, as a captive Communist puppet, and accused its clergy in the US as unduly influenced by Communists, particularly as the clergy were reluctant to participate in nationalist events and memorials that could be perceived as anti-Soviet.

On December 24, 1933, a group of assassins attacked Eastern Diocese Archbishop Levon Tourian as he walked down the aisle of Holy Cross Armenian Church in the Washington Heights neighborhood of New York City during the Divine Liturgy, and killed him with a butcher knife. Nine Tashnags were later arrested, tried and convicted. The incident divided the Armenian community, as Tashnag sympathizers established congregations independent of Etchmiadzin, declaring loyalty instead to the See based in Antelias in Lebanon. The division was formalized in 1956 when the Antelias (Cilisian) See broke away from the Echmiadzin See.[27]

The separation has become entrenched in the United States, with most large Armenian communities having two parish churches, one answering to each See, even though they are theologically indistinguishable. There have been numerous lay and clergy efforts at reunion, especially since the fall of the Soviet Union."

Division is the biggest cancer in Armenians, and in my opinion, the ONLY reason why we have lost so much since the dawn of civilization.

Then again, some historians say, ironically, it helped us survive. If we were united, then by conquering us once, they conquer us all, but divided, they have to conquer us one by one.

In a way it's true, but united, we would still have a better chance to resist invasions. Anyway, we still see the division today, as you mentioned. Bolsahay, Barsgahay, Amerigaha, Suryatsi, Rusyatsi, etc. etc. It just goes on and on. We're like little rascals fighting over something we don't even know. Anonts aghdod en, anonts islam sirogh en, anonts abush en, anonts chingene en, etc. etc. it drives me crazy.

Sure there are some Armenians I don't like (which is natural, after all, we're humans right?), but if I see an Armenian in need of help, I don't care where they come from, I'll be more than glad to help. What drives me insane the most is when Hayastantsis reject us Diasporans. Turkey's most orgasmic wish is for Armenia to break away from its Diaspora.