Ancient population of Armenians

[jgk3]

Re: Ancient population of Armenians

It is an excuse. If that wasn't the case, the Roman Empire, or Byzantine Empire, or heck, the Ottoman Empire would still exist today. The reason why the Ottoman Empire fell is because of the union of Western forces, not because the Ottomans weren't cunning enough to be a super power. If hostile neighbors unite and fight against a super power, then it will make a difference. Armenia was always a small nation, yet it always survived, despite being in the middle of huge empires with a larger population.

The Ottomans were cunning enough to save their own hide in Turkey by entering WWI and having a free hand in genociding their Christians in order to create a nation out of what would be left of their empire, which they all knew they could not hold any longer in its totality. They did this, and trumped all of Europe who busy bickering over who gets what piece of "the sick man of Europe".

Well, we can't really know what the culture of Armenians with sex was, but you're right, in the past, procreation was more common than today. Nevertheless, people in civilizations often procreated less than barbarians.

I doubt we procreated "less than barbarians" back in the day. We used to have a lot more kids than we tend to have nowadays. And we did not face the problem of assimilation the way our diaspora does.

True, but it still doesn't change the fact that one of the most important reasons why they were victorious was their large hordes, no matter their motives. If they were a small nation, they couldn't even dream of taking over the Middle East.

Their "large hordes" would be worthless in the face of a well fed standing army that could stage an effective defense, especially in the type of terrain we lived in. They were not even a nation when they conquered us, but fragmented waves of chieftains bursting into the weary, corrupt and defenseless Near East, just like the Germanic tribes who broke into the Roman Empire and each set up their own kingdoms.

[Davo88]

Re: Ancient population of Armenians

Apart from its greater population potential, a reason why Armenia could have become an important regional power is the strategic location of Greater Armenia between Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Russia. It would have had access to the Mediterranean coast through Cilicia and perhaps also the Black Sea coast. Its only competition in the region would have been a smaller, less populous, and relatively unimportant Turkey...

[jgk3]

Re: Ancient population of Armenians

Apart from its greater population potential, a reason why Armenia could have become an important regional power is the strategic location of Greater Armenia between Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Russia. It would have had access to the Mediterranean coast through Cilicia and perhaps also the Black Sea coast. Its only competition in the region would have been a smaller, less populous, and relatively unimportant Turkey...

Like any other example of a nation controlling important trade routes that link Europe and Asia, an ungenocided, independent Armenia would be no exception.

Nonetheless, Armenians did the best they could to muster political and financial control without an independent country, for 600 years. In fact, we probably got too good at being "good, industrious, faithful citizens" and forgot the virtues of having an organized army. That is precisely why we were genocided.

If we weren't genocided, you know what we'd do? We'd just stick with Turkey all the way. We'd just continue our legacy as "good, industrious, faithful citizens." But because we were genocided, such a policy is out of question.

Now we have to pick between whining about our misfortunes, and kicking ass without biting off more than we can chew.

[SevSpitak]

Re: Ancient population of Armenians

The Ottomans were cunning enough to save their own hide in Turkey by entering WWI and having a free hand in genociding their Christians in order to create a nation out of what would be left of their empire, which they all knew they could not hold any longer in its totality. They did this, and trumped all of Europe who busy bickering over who gets what piece of "the sick man of Europe".

I have very big doubts that if Turkey had a population of 800,000 (like Armenians), they would accomplish what they did in 1923. In any case, Armenians were cunning enough to create their country after a genocide against all odds, so if there was no genocide, and we had our Western Armenia, there is no doubt in my mind that Armenia would be one of the regional leaders, alongside Turkey and Iran.

I doubt we procreated "less than barbarians" back in the day. We used to have a lot more kids than we tend to have nowadays. And we did not face the problem of assimilation the way our diaspora does.

I know we had bigger families back then, but not that big compared to Muslims. In either case, I have no reliable opinion on our history of procreation... so I have nothing really to say here.

Their "large hordes" would be worthless in the face of a well fed standing army that could stage an effective defense, especially in the type of terrain we lived in. They were not even a nation when they conquered us, but fragmented waves of chieftains bursting into the weary, corrupt and defenseless Near East, just like the Germanic tribes who broke into the Roman Empire and each set up their own kingdoms.

Their large hordes would be very useful if they themselves were well fed and violent enough (we can never know this). But there is one thing for sure, numbers do count, although there have been exceptions in history, but most of the time they do. Yes, you're right, the Middle East was in a pretty bad shape, which opened the doors for Turks to enter, but it would be impossible to rule the entire Middle East if they didn't come in large numbers.

They weren't a nation, but they were all united under the Seljuks.

[levon]

Re: Ancient population of Armenians

Nonetheless, Armenians did the best they could to muster political and financial control without an independent country, for 600 years. In fact, we probably got too good at being "good, industrious, faithful citizens" and forgot the virtues of having an organized army. That is precisely why we were genocided.

That's an incorrect statement. At no point in time were Armenians ever OK with just being "good, industrious, faithful citizens" of Turkey. Independence was always in our minds, and the notion become even more intense starting late 17th century, which is precisely why the Ottomans saw the Armenian population as a threat to their statehood.

And, I would ask you how Armenians could establish an organized army under Turkish rule, when they were considered second-class citizens? Had we been "good, faithful" citizens of Turkey, all of us would have been genocided, and there wouldn't have been any survivors.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Ancient population of Armenians

Armenians aren't known for their faith in government (for obvious reasons). We have been industrious, hard working and valuable citizens but I wouldn't use the words "faithful citizens".

We have historically been a nation of people surrounded by perpetual war and our existence has naturally been determined by international circumstances. In a way, our mindsets have been molded by greater powers.

I don't think our population has ever been great due to our geo political location in the world.

[Davo88]

Re: Ancient population of Armenians

I wouldn't say we were faithful voluntarily, but faithful forcefully and by the sword, until the start of the Armenian national movement.

About our population throughout time : it was probably also affected by earthquakes that happened in the area. It is unfortunate to say this but Armenia is in fact located on a fault line...

Garni temple was destroyed by an earthquake : http://www.earth-prints.org/handle/2122/1795

An earthquake in 1287 in Cilicia is mentioned here : http://books.google.ca/books?id=iy9L...hquake&f=false

[SevSpitak]

Re: Ancient population of Armenians

Armenians aren't known for their faith in government (for obvious reasons). We have been industrious, hard working and valuable citizens but I wouldn't use the words "faithful citizens".

We have historically been a nation of people surrounded by perpetual war and our existence has naturally been determined by international circumstances. In a way, our mindsets have been molded by greater powers.

I don't think our population has ever been great due to our geo political location in the world.

Actually, Armenia's geopolitical location is among the worst in the world. It's the point where the fiercest empires of the East met the fiercest empires of the West, literally, plus as Davo mentioned, Armenia was often devastated by earthquakes. Plus it was difficult to unite its people due to the mountainous geography. All in all, if we were to reset the world to the time of Sumer, maybe this time we wouldn't be so lucky as to survive to this day, or we would be something like the Laz in Turkey (Descendants of Colchis & Pontus, distinct Caucasus language -- similar to Georgian, originally Christians, Islamized under the Ottomans, and today many are more nationalist Turks than Turks themselves). Some historians say that our survival considering our disadvantages is almost unparalleled in the history of civilizations in the world.

[jgk3]

Re: Ancient population of Armenians

I have very big doubts that if Turkey had a population of 800,000 (like Armenians), they would accomplish what they did in 1923. In any case, Armenians were cunning enough to create their country after a genocide against all odds, so if there was no genocide, and we had our Western Armenia, there is no doubt in my mind that Armenia would be one of the regional leaders, alongside Turkey and Iran.

The Armenian leadership was as uncunning as it gets during and following the genocide, putting their hopes in the English, French and Russians... at times even in Turkey!!! at a time when the only rational thing to do was to pick up a Mosin and shoot at the enemy.

Their large hordes would be very useful if they themselves were well fed and violent enough (we can never know this). But there is one thing for sure, numbers do count, although there have been exceptions in history, but most of the time they do. Yes, you're right, the Middle East was in a pretty bad shape, which opened the doors for Turks to enter, but it would be impossible to rule the entire Middle East if they didn't come in large numbers.

The only reason large numbers of Turks came into the Middle East is because they were attracted like flies to its weakness. Tribe by tribe, they came, looking for plunder. Central Asia was a training ground for that kind of thing, because no one there could afford a large standing army to defend one's territory like you could in the Middle East or Europe. The more of the Silk Road you controlled, the more tribute, tax and trade revenue you'd collect to fuel your army. Conquest meant survival. Turks simply applied this formula to the Middle East once the Persian Sassanid empire was too weak/non-existent too keep them out.

They weren't a nation, but they were all united under the Seljuks.

Yes, that was an important development, once they realized that they were going to be swallowed by a resurgence of power among the native forces in this region (to which they were aliens).

That's an incorrect statement. At no point in time were Armenians ever OK with just being "good, industrious, faithful citizens" of Turkey. Independence was always in our minds, and the notion become even more intense starting late 17th century, which is precisely why the Ottomans saw the Armenian population as a threat to their statehood.

It's true, we did have our nationalistic aspirations, but Turkish Armenians on the whole were still pretty damn faithful to the Turks. Our faith came from being scared xxxxless of the alternative to not being "the most loyal villayet". And the reward for our faith was disenfranchisement and death.

And, I would ask you how Armenians could establish an organized army under Turkish rule, when they were considered second-class citizens? Had we been "good, faithful" citizens of Turkey, all of us would have been genocided, and there wouldn't have been any survivors.

That's the point... It took a genocide for us to stop kissing Turkish ass.

[SevSpitak]

Re: Ancient population of Armenians

The Armenian leadership was as uncunning as it gets during and following the genocide, putting their hopes in the English, French and Russians... at times even in Turkey!!! at a time when the only rational thing to do was to pick up a Mosin and shoot at the enemy.

Yet they still managed to defend some part of Armenia in Karabakh and in the mountains around Lake Sevan from the Ottoman occupation of the Caucasus during the Bolshevik revolution. Armenians were as cunning as they were given the chance to be. It is also funny how they resisted the Bolshevik invasion to the last breath, and fought off the Turks in Sardarabad. We asked for help from Christian nations, but that doesn'T mean we were an insignificant, poor little uncunning nation that depended on others. If we were uncunning, we wouldn't have an independent country today.

The only reason large numbers of Turks came into the Middle East is because they were attracted like flies to its weakness. Tribe by tribe, they came, looking for plunder. Central Asia was a training ground for that kind of thing, because no one there could afford a large standing army to defend one's territory like you could in the Middle East or Europe. The more of the Silk Road you controlled, the more tribute, tax and trade revenue you'd collect to fuel your army. Conquest meant survival. Turks simply applied this formula to the Middle East once the Persian Sassanid empire was too weak/non-existent too keep them out.



Yes, that was an important development, once they realized that they were going to be swallowed by a resurgence of power among the native forces in this region (to which they were aliens).

No, Turks were very much like the Mongolians. Temujin (Genghiz Khan) was a Mongolian, very much like Seljuk was an Oghuz Turk. Seljuk somewhat unified the nomadic Oghuz Turkic clans, much like Temujin united the Mongolian clans, before the Sassanids were taken down. (there is a lot more to it than simply uniting, Seljuks took over Greater Iran). Turks were a minority in Persia, just like the Armenians. They overthrew the Abbasids, if I'm not mistaken, but they definitely didn't enter a free-for-all buffet. The Seljuk Empire was a Persianate (an Iranian Empire), ruled not by a Parthian dynasty, nor Median, nor Persian, but a Turkic dynasty, which opened the doors for the first major migration of huges hordes of nomadic Turks to penetrate the Middle East. This continued until the Mongol Empire entered the Middle East, and fell, when the Turks settled, let go of their nomadism, and adopted the culture of the nations their ruled, and began amalgamating to to the extend of losing all their Mongoloid traits to one day create Turkey, Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan (Turkmenistan is the only remnant of the Oghuz Turks to have somewhat preserved their mongoloid traits).

It's true, we did have our nationalistic aspirations, but Turkish Armenians on the whole were still pretty damn faithful to the Turks. Our faith came from being scared xxxxless of the alternative to not being "the most loyal villayet". And the reward for our faith was disenfranchisement and death.

That's the point... It took a genocide for us to stop kissing Turkish ass.

Your view on your own nation is quite dull. At that time, most Armenians didn't care if they were ruled by Osmanlis or Russians. All they cared was to have their bread and live their lives. They weren't faithful to Turks, they just lived under them, and it would be ridiculous to stop being productive just because they were under Turks. An Armenian artist who makes art in Turkey doesn't mean he is faithful to Turkey or kissing Turkish ass. He lives in Turkey, and that's where he makes his art. It's that simple. We never EVER kissed Turkish ass, and those who did, were often rejected. Russian Armenians helped develop Russia, Turkish Armenians helped develop Turkey (Armenians are the ones who built the Sultan' palace). American Armenians help develop America. Does that mean they kiss American asses?

Nevertheless, when we had the opportunity to liberate our lands from Russians, we did so (after the Soviet Union), and when we saw the opportunity to do that from the Turks, we tried to as well. It took a genocide not to stop kissing their asses, but to forget our homelands. Turkish Armenians today have no intention, or dream, to liberate their homes in Western Armenia. But they don't kiss Turkish ass today either. I'm Bolsahay, and let me tell you, to live in Turkey as an Armenian, you have to pretend to kiss their ass sometimes because otherwise, you die (Hrant Dink). You also have to understand that if you saw and lived in Istanbul, you would never want to live elsewhere. Many did leave, but many stay because Istanbul is the home they love. You can't misjudge them for this.