The Struggle for Caucasia

[xBaron Dants]

And, you are not in a position to think about anything.

And why is that? Because I am a realist? I am all for better relations, and everybody knows that. However, I will never accept seeing Armenians going around and telling Turks "oh please be nice with us, we want to be friends" because we have NOTHING to apologize for.

I think I am in the best position to think and speak about this topic.
Not only am I a direct descendant of victims of Turkish massacres, not only do I have uncles, aunts and cousins living in Armenia today, I will also be joining them in the near future.

Therefore, I have every right to express my opinion on MY country.

[HyeJinx1984]

You moving back for good?

[SULTAN]

And why is that? Because I am a realist? I am all for better relations, and everybody knows that. However, I will never accept seeing Armenians going around and telling Turks "oh please be nice with us, we want to be friends" because we have NOTHING to apologize for.

I think I am in the best position to think and speak about this topic.
Not only am I a direct descendant of victims of Turkish massacres, not only do I have uncles, aunts and cousins living in Armenia today, I will also be joining them in the near future.

Therefore, I have every right to express my opinion on MY country.

Yes some parts of the movie was censored.And if we really get into EU we will have to open the borders with you.But again instead of repeating the same things we must solve the problems.Armenia and Azeri must find a solution to Karabagh without making a war.Turkey must open its borders.Armenia may keep demanding from Turkey to recognize genocide but must stop claiming lands from Turkey.Turkey must not accept the genocide.But must understand that we hurt Armenians very much in the history.Turkey must accept that the war in 1915 was not very clean and we did not have the right to send out and kill civilians.We must also admit that Armenians had a respectful, very old, culture and as a country deserves a better life.Also we lived together friendly for hundreds of years.There were many many Armenian soldiers,high officials.Armenians were the last people rebelled and asked freedom from Ottomans.But they were not ready as Arabs,Bulgarians and Greeks and Slavs.and they lost very badly.Now Turkey must help Armenia in everey way.Must invest money there.Turkey looks very poor from outside.But we have a very big underground economy works without papers to escape from high taxes.We must be very careful and nice to Armenians.Because if we want to enter the civilised world by joining EU we must understand that Armenia has a special meaning for the western world.İf we help Armenia without expecting much from them,some day will come and you people will forgive us.Finally I swear to god that although I read some very bad things here I have no bad feelings to Armenians deep in my heart.

[Virgil]

Anushik, I don't know and don't care about what you do with your life, but I have to admit you are VERY naive.

You xxxxing Armenians come on these board thinking that the whole world is as xxxxing peachy as the United States. Get a xxxxing life, the entire world is out for themselves but yet you linger and strive to be morally superior then everyone else. Look at the God dam presidential elections, the advertisments are as nationalist as anything coming out of Nazi Germany. You have George Bush smerking while the American flag is behind him. IF THIS IS NOT A INDICATION OF HOW IMPORTANT NATIONALISM IS I DON'T WHAT ELSE TO TELL YOU. I don't give a rats ass what happens to Turks nor do I want them to be my friends.

REALLY xxxxING THINK ABOUT THIS FOR A SECOND..

LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING...just the fact that you make it seem WE HAVE TO APOLOGIZE PLACES TWO SIDES TO ARMENIAN-TURKISH RELATIONS. TURKS BENT YOUR ANCESTORS OVER AND xxxxED THEM IN THE ASS, BUT YET YOU ARE HERE TRYING TO "RECONCILE" WITH THEM. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU "RECONCILING" WITH? HOW CAN YOU TRUST A NATION THAT HAS CONTINUALLY SHOWN AGGRESSION WITHIN THE LAST TEN YEARS? ARE YOU xxxxING ARMENIANS FORGETTING THAT A AZERI GENERAL, A GENERAL OF A NATION SUPPORTED BY TURKEY, STATED THAT "WITHING 25 YEARS THERE WILL BE NO ARMENIA"? ON WHAT BASIS ARE YOU ASSUMING THAT TURKS HAVE LEARNED THEIR LESSON?

This is a travesty and molestation of our nation. These xxxxing Turks HAVE YET TO APOLOGIZE FOR:

*THE GENOCIDE (GREEK, ASSYRIAN, ARMENIAN, KURDS)
*CYPRUS
*TREATMENT OF KURDS
*BLOCKADE (TURKS FROM TURKEY ONLY)
*AZERI AGGRESSION AND ATTEMPTED GENOCIDE
*AZERI THREATS
*TURKISH ECONOMIC SANCTIONS
*AZERI BLOCKADE AND ECONOMIC SANCTIONS

I could name a few more "mistakes" commited by Turks, however, since this is not about "history" I am not going to derail the thread.

THE ONLY xxxxING WAY I WILL EVER TRUST A TURK IS SIMPLE...

You Turks from Turkey, I want you to betray your Azeri comrades for me. ON THIS FORUM, I WANT YOU TO STATE THAT THEY ARE WRONG AND WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS WRONG AS WELL. I WANT YOU TO SHOW ME THAT YOU HAVE CHANGED BY NOT QUOTING BOOKS AND TRYING TO CONVINCE ME OF WHAT I ALREADY KNOW AS A FACT, RATHER, I WANT YOU TO ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG AND ACCEPT LOSSES. YOU xxxxING WANT ARMENIANS TO GIVE BACK ARTSAHK (KARABAGH), BUT YET ARE CONTINUALLY CLAIMING THAT "ARARAT" IS YOURS. DON'T YOU xxxxING THINKG THIS IS A DOUBLE STANDARD? HOW THE HELL CAN YOU EXPECT US TO GIVE OUR LAND TO YOU WHEN YOU HAVE STOLEN OURS AND ARE DENYING IT?

I don't normally write in Caps, but I am just sick to my stomach of how naive, shortsighted, and stupid you Armenians have become. Instead of learning from your mistakes you are continually choosing to be beggers. Taking a cup and asking the rest of the world to "help you". Do you honestly think that the U.S., who has commited atrocities itself, will actually demand anything from Turkey? Just look at the condition in Sudan. If any sort of "military deployment" was needed it should have gone towards saving Africans, instead, we have troops stationed around the oil feilds in Iraq. THE DAY THAT THE U.S. "DEMANDS" ANY SORT OF COMPENSATION FROM TURKS, IS THE DAY THAT HELL FREEZES OVER.

Oh yeah, you xxxxing "Amerka hyes" your own tax dollars are going towards marginalizing and eventually subjigating your nation under Turkish rule. Where the hell do you think Turks and Azeris' get their arms from? Israel, where do you think Israel gets their arms from? The U.S., so, in theory your tax dollars for a century have been covertly supporting the Turkish government. For a 100 years you ahve been fighting yourselves. That is how stupid and ridiculous the Armenian logic is. You live in a country that bankrolls your enemies. Who the xxxx do you think was the country that neatly sweeped the "genocide" underneat the rug? Do you honestly think that France, Germany, England, and the U.S. didn't know about the "genocide"? It is a travesty and I just can't believe the Armenian youth is buying into it. The only think America wants Armenia for is a pawn and once a pawn, always a pawn.

Instead of waving beggers cups during April 24th why don't you make sure another genocide doesn't happen. Instead of continually trying to be "morally superior" at the expense of your future as a people, buy arms, nukes, and in general be more nationalistic. The only way Armenia will succeed is if it becomes self-sufficent or else for the next 2000 years it will be used as a buffer state between Turks, Russians, and Americans just like it was used as a buffer state between Romans, Greeks, and Persians 2000 years ago.

[Virgil]

Yes some parts of the movie was censored.And if we really get into EU we will have to open the borders with you.But again instead of repeating the same things we must solve the problems.Armenia and Azeri must find a solution to Karabagh without making a war.Turkey must open its borders.Armenia may keep demanding from Turkey to recognize genocide but must stop claiming lands from Turkey.Turkey must not accept the genocide.But must understand that we hurt Armenians very much in the history.Turkey must accept that the war in 1915 was not very clean and we did not have the right to send out and kill civilians.We must also admit that Armenians had a respectful, very old, culture and as a country deserves a better life.Also we lived together friendly for hundreds of years.There were many many Armenian soldiers,high officials.Armenians were the last people rebelled and asked freedom from Ottomans.But they were not ready as Arabs,Bulgarians and Greeks and Slavs.and they lost very badly.Now Turkey must help Armenia in everey way.Must invest money there.Turkey looks very poor from outside.But we have a very big underground economy works without papers to escape from high taxes.We must be very careful and nice to Armenians.Because if we want to enter the civilised world by joining EU we must understand that Armenia has a special meaning for the western world.İf we help Armenia without expecting much from them,some day will come and you people will forgive us.Finally I swear to god that although I read some very bad things here I have no bad feelings to Armenians deep in my heart.

Bullxxxx

I don't buy it.

Sultan let me ask you somthing...

How would you feel if you were in place? Take a look at the subject from my point of view. You claim that "bygones are bygones", well, if indeed "bygones are bygones" why the stance on Artsahk? Why not condemn the actions of Azeri generals who directly state that they will invade Armenia in the near future?

I totally understand why you deny the genocide. Hell, if I was in your place I wouldn't want future historians associating a genocide with my culture, but after 100 years it is time to put this behind us. It is time to put it "behind us" on the basis that, as Armenians and as the "victims" of the crime, you, as Turks and perpetrators of the crime, offer some sort of "bridge" or "trust". Why should I trust you as a Turk when at the moment my country need Turkey, it turned its back on it?

Do you guys notice that Turks in general want to put their "past" behind them on their terms? I mean really, if you weren't trying to get into the EU, would you really give a dam about Armenians? About Kurds? About the genocide? About Artsahk? About Cyprus?

This is a double standard and truly hope you Armenians do not buy into it. Furthermore, I am not a Jew and in no way do I think paying me off will make up for what you did. Basically you DISPLACED a generation of Armenians and because of you we are heading towards extinction. Your nation was built upon my ancestors. There is no way around this, either you accept it and move on or you continually make yourselves look like a ass. I, as a Armenian, don't want anything from you. I am not going to "beg" my historicaly rival to give me land nor am I going to whine about it like you and your Azeri buddies.

A LOT of nations have done bad things and in general commited attrocities. The Japanese butched 200,000 thousand Chinese. The English subjigated the Irish and Scotts, while their ancestors the Americans butchered natives. The Spanish colonized, butchered, and destroyed natives. Hell, even the Jews have commited atrocities. However, in all cases except for maybe Israel and Japan, all these nations have admited they were wrong. They have not given compensation, but they admitted they were wrong.

[guaco]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the most brutal scenes of Ararat were censored.

Does EU have any conditions about the borders of the member countries? Can a country imposing a blockade be a member of EU?

Correction:
Ararat is not censored. I also watched the movie without censored. The story about censor discussion of movie Ararat in Turkey:
When the company which import Ararat bring the film to Turkey, the official film commission permitted Ararat if some scenes are censored. Then importer company reject it and go to the court. After the court it is permitted to show Ararat without censor. Then, MHP militans (the ultra nationalist party in Turkey) protested the film with their ugly kind of demonstrations. After the demonstrations "Belge Film" (the importer company of Ararat) gave up to show the film because of threatens of MHP militans. This time Turkish ministry of culture (Erkan Mumcu) urged Belge Film to show the movie and gave all quarantees about the security and demonstration s of MHP militans. nd this goes on and on....
Anyway finally: Ararat is not censored and is available at Turkey without censored, OK?
This censor story exaggerated at Europe, USA and made a big damage to the image of Turkey. Because of some marginal nationalist group (MHP)
Because of people in Turkey like your "Armenian"

[guaco]

And why is that? Because I am a realist? I am all for better relations, and everybody knows that. However, I will never accept seeing Armenians going around and telling Turks "oh please be nice with us, we want to be friends" because we have NOTHING to apologize for.

I think I am in the best position to think and speak about this topic.
Not only am I a direct descendant of victims of Turkish massacres, not only do I have uncles, aunts and cousins living in Armenia today, I will also be joining them in the near future.

Therefore, I have every right to express my opinion on MY country.

Baron, I strongly recommend to go to Armenia and look how your diaspora seems from outside. I don't want to insult you but your people seem very racist, obsessive, aggressor from outside.
For sure that one day we wil solve our problems with Armenians about "genocde", economy, security,etc. But not with people like you because you are just an obstacle to solve the problems within Turks-Armenians. After 3 generations, today, most of Armenian diaspora has no relation about being Armenian. I know real Armenians in Turkey, in Armenia. There may be an anger between communities, but those people are not racist like your community.
For most of your community, Armenian=A nation that is killed by Turks and that msut hate Turks. Turkish hatred becomes a traditional identity at your diaspora, you will understand what I mean if you stop hating me a nd observe you from outside your community.

[guaco]

This is a travesty and molestation of our nation. These xxxxing Turks HAVE YET TO APOLOGIZE FOR:

*THE GENOCIDE (GREEK, ASSYRIAN, ARMENIAN, KURDS)
*CYPRUS
*TREATMENT OF KURDS
*BLOCKADE (TURKS FROM TURKEY ONLY)
*AZERI AGGRESSION AND ATTEMPTED GENOCIDE
*AZERI THREATS
*TURKISH ECONOMIC SANCTIONS
*AZERI BLOCKADE AND ECONOMIC SANCTIONS

???????????????????????????????????????

Virgil, you don't know what you are talking about.
What Greek, Assyrian, Kurd genocide are you talking about?
It is obvious that you also don't have much information about your other points like Cyprus, Kurds,etc.
If you really interested about these issues, first you have to learn what you are talking about.
I am half Kurd half Turk. I was strongly protesting the Kurdish problem at streets in Turkey. OK? You don't know anything about Kurds so don't use them to support your stereotypes.
But if you feel good with fabricating stereotypes, go on.

[Anushik]

Anushik, I don't know and don't care about what you do with your life, but I have to admit you are VERY naive.

LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING...just the fact that you make it seem WE HAVE TO APOLOGIZE PLACES TWO SIDES TO ARMENIAN-TURKISH RELATIONS. TURKS BENT YOUR ANCESTORS OVER AND xxxxED THEM IN THE ASS, BUT YET YOU ARE HERE TRYING TO "RECONCILE" WITH THEM. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU "RECONCILING" WITH? HOW CAN YOU TRUST A NATION THAT HAS CONTINUALLY SHOWN AGGRESSION WITHIN THE LAST TEN YEARS? ARE YOU xxxxING ARMENIANS FORGETTING THAT A AZERI GENERAL, A GENERAL OF A NATION SUPPORTED BY TURKEY, STATED THAT "WITHING 25 YEARS THERE WILL BE NO ARMENIA"? ON WHAT BASIS ARE YOU ASSUMING THAT TURKS HAVE LEARNED THEIR LESSON?

OK, one more time... I don't say you need to apologize; btw I'll never apologize to Turks for anything... I know History very-very well, and I was one of the hundreds of people who were screaming on the "Hanrapetutyan Hraparak" <Kharabagh@ mern a...>, I was one of the millions of people who suffered after Soviet Collapse and when Azaris started the war... one of my close friends died during that war... I saw many things, which I will never wish even to my enemy... when I was suffering, many people from Armenian Diaspora, some of them now are talking about Armenian-Turk relationship, were living their happy lives; with gas, with energy, with water with everything... I saw everything, and I'm sick and tiered of that, I don't want war to start, I don't want my only brother go to the army, I don't want my mom cry because she doesn't know what will happen tomorrow, I don't want my more or less happy life ruins... this what I don't want... maybe I'm naive, maybe I'm selfish, but I want to stop this fricking war... Once again, I don't want you to apologize to anyone, especially Turks... but we are new generationp; shouldn’t we try to have peace on this Earth (at least our own)... And stop using f****ingh word, I can use it too you know?

[TJ]

virgil you are right in a sense, i am patriotic, i am nationalistic, iv dreamt before of nuking every goddamn turkish city, and taking our lands and our pride back, of course, i htink every Armenian has at one time or another, but you have to look at reality, none of that is gonna happen soon, at least not in the next 100 years, instead of sitting on our asses and dreaming we have to look at reality, we have to build our country and economy by cooperating with superpowers (US, Russia, EU) and regional powers (Iran, and yes Turkey), so that one day we will be in a bargaining position and have some power instead of being choked to death like we are now, blockaded on all sides, having to rely on russia so that the turks dont come in and we can scare the azeris, having to kiss georgian ass and pretend we like them so we can get some decent rates on transport, its politics and its reality, s hit takes time and careful planning ahead, not reckless action. i mean look were saddam got iraq.