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The Struggle for Caucasia

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  • #111
    Originally posted by guaco
    Baron, I strongly recommend to go to Armenia and look how your diaspora seems from outside. I don't want to insult you but your people seem very racist, obsessive, aggressor from outside.
    For sure that one day we wil solve our problems with Armenians about "genocde", economy, security,etc. But not with people like you because you are just an obstacle to solve the problems within Turks-Armenians. After 3 generations, today, most of Armenian diaspora has no relation about being Armenian. I know real Armenians in Turkey, in Armenia. There may be an anger between communities, but those people are not racist like your community.
    For most of your community, Armenian=A nation that is killed by Turks and that msut hate Turks. Turkish hatred becomes a traditional identity at your diaspora, you will understand what I mean if you stop hating me a nd observe you from outside your community.
    First of all, I do not take anything you say as an insult, because I have heard the words "racist, obsessive and aggressor" used more against Turks than Armenians. However, that is not my problem, and I do not wish to sink to that level of name-calling, whether you have the "intent" to insult or not.

    Second, I have been to Armenia. The way we were seen as diasporans did not bother me at all. For one, many people thought I was a local. So much for your statement that Armenians in the diaspora have no relations to Armenia. Other than that, some taxi drivers and grocers didn't want to make us pay, the taxi company eventually invited us over for coffee and ice cream, a family we had just met in Artsakh invited us to spend the night at their place, two police officers invited us for a barbecue party, and I met friends with whom I keep in touch regularly, and plan to revisit this summer.

    Third, to state that the Diaspora is the largest obstacle to Armenian-Turkish relations is a sheer lie. The Armenian government, and especially the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Which happens to be led by a diasporan Armenian born in Syria and educated in the USA) has REPEATEDLY stated that Armenia has set no preconditions to talks with Turkey. Turkey, on the other hand, has told Armenia to drop the issue of genocide, and to vacate Artsakh (or Kharabakh). As you can see, it is Turkey that has set preconditions that it knows Armenia will refuse. Therefore, let us please be honest when we look for the true culprit.

    Armenia does not equal a nation that is killed by Turks.
    Armenia equals a nation that has a tremendously rich culture, litterature and history. The genocide is but a small part of our history, albeit the most tragic.

    And it is not so much the "we hate you because your grandfather killed my grandfather" attitude that prevails. Rather, it is "we are angry because you still refuse to acknowledge your past crimes". You speak of friendship, but how are we realistically able to believe that (not among individuals, but as two countries) when we have seen how easily your country can lie about our past? What guarantee do we have that the future does not hold a similar fate?

    Do I wish for better relations? OF COURSE! But until Turkey wakes up and acknowledges its past, and decides to no longer meddle in the Artsakh issue, "friendship" is not a possibility.

    Here's a comparison for you. Suppose you are a student in the 3rd grade, and you always get good grades. However, you're not too big physically. Now suppose the class bully starts beating you up one day. You are always in pain, and your grades start dropping. Do you want to be friends with this bully at that moment? No. All you want is for him to let you go to school and study as you wish. Maybe three years later, the bully will mature into a smart young boy, and ask for forgiveness. Will you want to be friends then? Why not?

    Comment

    • #112
      well put well put. what i get angry at is that turks actually think that they understand Armenia and Armenians who live there now better than diaspora Armenians do.

      Comment

      • #113
        Originally posted by Baron Dants
        First of all, I do not take anything you say as an insult, because I have heard the words "racist, obsessive and aggressor" used more against Turks than Armenians. However, that is not my problem, and I do not wish to sink to that level of name-calling, whether you have the "intent" to insult or not.

        Second, I have been to Armenia. The way we were seen as diasporans did not bother me at all. For one, many people thought I was a local. So much for your statement that Armenians in the diaspora have no relations to Armenia. Other than that, some taxi drivers and grocers didn't want to make us pay, the taxi company eventually invited us over for coffee and ice cream, a family we had just met in Artsakh invited us to spend the night at their place, two police officers invited us for a barbecue party, and I met friends with whom I keep in touch regularly, and plan to revisit this summer.

        Third, to state that the Diaspora is the largest obstacle to Armenian-Turkish relations is a sheer lie. The Armenian government, and especially the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Which happens to be led by a diasporan Armenian born in Syria and educated in the USA) has REPEATEDLY stated that Armenia has set no preconditions to talks with Turkey. Turkey, on the other hand, has told Armenia to drop the issue of genocide, and to vacate Artsakh (or Kharabakh). As you can see, it is Turkey that has set preconditions that it knows Armenia will refuse. Therefore, let us please be honest when we look for the true culprit.

        Armenia does not equal a nation that is killed by Turks.
        Armenia equals a nation that has a tremendously rich culture, litterature and history. The genocide is but a small part of our history, albeit the most tragic.

        And it is not so much the "we hate you because your grandfather killed my grandfather" attitude that prevails. Rather, it is "we are angry because you still refuse to acknowledge your past crimes". You speak of friendship, but how are we realistically able to believe that (not among individuals, but as two countries) when we have seen how easily your country can lie about our past? What guarantee do we have that the future does not hold a similar fate?

        Do I wish for better relations? OF COURSE! But until Turkey wakes up and acknowledges its past, and decides to no longer meddle in the Artsakh issue, "friendship" is not a possibility.

        Here's a comparison for you. Suppose you are a student in the 3rd grade, and you always get good grades. However, you're not too big physically. Now suppose the class bully starts beating you up one day. You are always in pain, and your grades start dropping. Do you want to be friends with this bully at that moment? No. All you want is for him to let you go to school and study as you wish. Maybe three years later, the bully will mature into a smart young boy, and ask for forgiveness. Will you want to be friends then? Why not?
        1. Obviously I am not the one that make the name calling.
        2. I wish you to see how diaspora seems from outside.
        3. And of course todays facist Armenian government share your hate policy, I meant the people of Armenia, they are not racist like diaspora. I remember Ter Petrossian government tried to solve the problems with Turkey, but he couln't stand against the blind and ignorant hatred of the diaspora+economical problems=he failed and now you can proud with today's government.
        4. I agree thatArmenians are more than genocide, they have a very rich historical background and culture and it is very bad for you since for your young diaspora generation Armenian=a nation that is killed by Turks and that must hate Turks.

        You can critisize Turkish government and I can agree with you at some points, you may hate Turks because of you suffered at history. What I said is different: A blind and ignorant Turkish hatred becomes a traditional identity among your diaspora. That is what I said and I finish.

        Comment

        • #114
          Thank you for again ignoring the point that our "fascist" government calls for dialogue, while your "democratic" one rejects it.

          I'm not even going to bother to reply since you promised that you "finished".

          Goodbye!

          Tigran, I share your frustration.
          HyeJinx: yes, I will be moving for good once my education is completed.

          Comment

          • #115
            Baron I know we disagree a lot but we can agree, esha esh ga mna.

            Comment

            • #116
              Bah, our disagreements are healthy ones. Debate about certain subjects that some might consider taboo is the only way to ensure better preparedness, productivity, and even unity.

              Yete aysbisi barakaneroo mech hamatsayn enk, mnatsadze vnas chooni

              Comment

              • #117
                Originally posted by Baron Dants
                Bah, our disagreements are healthy ones. Debate about certain subjects that some might consider taboo is the only way to ensure better preparedness, productivity, and even unity.

                Yete aysbisi barakaneroo mech hamatsayn enk, mnatsadze vnas chooni
                I hope that doesn't mean you'll stop coming around these bards since talking to you if one of the reasons I stick around. As an accomplished writer myself, I will always envy your ability to make on the spot arguements that shoot down the other person's (whether they acknowledge it or not).

                Actually at this point I could care less about this guy, let us talk about our home. You said you went to Karabagh, how is it? I'm almost more anxious to visit there than Armenia proper when I go next summer.
                "All I know is I'm not a Marxist." -Karl Marx

                Comment

                • #118
                  Originally posted by Anushik
                  I don't blame you because you didn't like "Ararat" , but that is the truth... that movie based on real stories, and that is the half of reality... not only Armenians told that stories but people from other countries (for example that German woman in the movie...)...
                  "Ararat" is not "the truth" - it is 100% fiction. In fact, it must be the only movie in history where even the closing credits are fiction.
                  Plenipotentiary meow!

                  Comment

                  • #119
                    100% fiction? I think you're confusing this film with a Turkish schoolbook...
                    "All I know is I'm not a Marxist." -Karl Marx

                    Comment

                    • #120
                      HAHAHAHA, good one aper

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