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Liberation of Western Armenia

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  • #91
    Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

    A prosperous Armenia is not within the long term interest of the Turkish nation - simply because we Armenians want lands and reparations. No self-respecting Turk is going to give away strategic lands to us Armenians. Trust me on that. Moreover, the Turks will not give us reparations because it would ruin their already small bank accounts. Moreover, giving us lands or reparations is a Pandora's box for them. Once they do it for us, it will be Assyrians, Kurds and Greeks, Cypriots lining up.

    However, the biggest fear Armenian nationalists have is the massive economic and demographic size of Turkey. Theoretically, if the Republic of Armenia engages in open trade, and all is civil between us and the Turks, there is a great danger that the Republic of Armenia, as small and as isolated as it is, will become desperately dependent on Turkey for survival. This is the biggest long term fear that Armenia has with regards to open trade with Turkey.

    I personally feel that we can not have official relations with Turkey as long as we have national demands. And, as far as I am concerned, the Armenian diaspora has demands and, as a matter of fact, the Armenian Republic has demands as well, although for diplomatic reasons they will not discuss it. Moreover, I really don't see any substantial benefit in having open borders with Turkey. Turkey produces cheap goods, nothing else. Armenia needs to concentrate on better relations with Iran, Russia and the EU. At least there we know that our existence is actually within their national interests.

    The Turkish border is the longest, therefore, simplest, cheapest and quickest route for transporting goods. The Georgian border is short, risky, unstable and under-developed. The Iranian border is tiny and Iran has serious long-term geo-political problems. Under these circumstances, the worst thing that can happen to Armenia is to have open borders and normal relations with Turks. Economically Turks can overwhelm us within a very short period of time. And once your main source of income is placed within the hands of the enemy - kiss your vor, and your national interests, goodbye. I am surprised more Armenians have not been able to see the long term risks in all this. However, I suspect that many serious political organization within Armenia and the Diaspora, especially the ARF, do see the long term risks with having open borders with Turkey.

    It is very troubling that we Armenians have simply forgotten that Turkey was ready to invade Armenia in 1993. This was in '1993' not in 1905 or 1918 or 1921. This was in modern times. You know, the modern 'civilized' Turk. Rest assured, power-brokers in Turkey hate us and they fear us they would love for us to simply disappear. If is was not for the South Caucasus command of the Russian Army, Yerevan today would have been an occupied Armenian city as well.

    In short: Armenia today serves the geo-political interest of Iran and Russia and to a lesser extent the European Union. However, Armenia does not serve the long term interest of Turkey and obviously, Azerbaijan. And that is why we can't have any real close relations with Turks. Simply put, a prosperous Armenia is not in their long term interest. As far as Americans are concerned, they are there today, and gone tomorrow - when their 'interests' disappear. When it comes to Armenan issues, we obviously can't trust Washington DC.

    We Armenians need to concentrate on building closer economic and political relations with Russians, Iranians, the EU and the Arab world. Let's hope the winds of war in Iran passes soon. Let's hope Georgia gets run-over by Russia. Let's hope the Turkish border remains closed. Armenian will do well looking north and south. As a matter of fact, much to the disappointment of Ankara and Washington DC, the Armenian economy has been doing relatively well despite the Turkic blockade.
    Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:

    Նժդեհ


    Please visit me at my Heralding the Rise of Russia blog: http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/

    Comment


    • #92
      Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

      Originally posted by Armenian
      A prosperous Armenia is not within the long term interest of the Turkish nation - simply because we Armenians want lands and reparations. No self-respecting Turk is going to give away strategic lands to us Armenians. Trust me on that. Moreover, the Turks will not give us reparations because it would ruin their already small bank accounts. Moreover, giving us lands or reparations is a Pandora's box for them. Once they do it for us, it will be Assyrians, Kurds and Greeks, Cypriots lining up.

      However, the biggest fear Armenian nationalists have is the massive economic and demographic size of Turkey. Theoretically, if the Republic of Armenia engages in open trade, and all is civil between us and the Turks, there is a great danger that the Republic of Armenia, as small and as isolated as it is, will become desperately dependent on Turkey for survival. This is the biggest long term fear that Armenia has with regards to open trade with Turkey.

      I personally feel that we can not have official relations with Turkey as long as we have national demands. And, as far as I am concerned, the Armenian diaspora has demands and, as a matter of fact, the Armenian Republic has demands as well, although for diplomatic reasons they will not discuss it. Moreover, I really don't see any substantial benefit in having open borders with Turkey. Turkey produces cheap goods, nothing else. Armenia needs to concentrate on better relations with Iran, Russia and the EU. At least there we know that our existence is actually within their national interests.

      The Turkish border is the longest, therefore, simplest, cheapest and quickest route for transporting goods. The Georgian border is short, risky, unstable and under-developed. The Iranian border is tiny and Iran has serious long-term geo-political problems. Under these circumstances, the worst thing that can happen to Armenia is to have open borders and normal relations with Turks. Economically Turks can overwhelm us within a very short period of time. And once your main source of income is placed within the hands of the enemy - kiss your vor, and your national interests, goodbye. I am surprised more Armenians have not been able to see the long term risks in all this. However, I suspect that many serious political organization within Armenia and the Diaspora, especially the ARF, do see the long term risks with having open borders with Turkey.

      It is very troubling that we Armenians have simply forgotten that Turkey was ready to invade Armenia in 1993. This was in '1993' not in 1905 or 1918 or 1921. This was in modern times. You know, the modern 'civilized' Turk. Rest assured, power-brokers in Turkey hate us and they fear us they would love for us to simply disappear. If is was not for the South Caucasus command of the Russian Army, Yerevan today would have been an occupied Armenian city as well.

      In short: Armenia today serves the geo-political interest of Iran and Russia and to a lesser extent the European Union. However, Armenia does not serve the long term interest of Turkey and obviously, Azerbaijan. And that is why we can't have any real close relations with Turks. Simply put, a prosperous Armenia is not in their long term interest. As far as Americans are concerned, they are there today, and gone tomorrow - when their 'interests' disappear. When it comes to Armenan issues, we obviously can't trust Washington DC.

      We Armenians need to concentrate on building closer economic and political relations with Russians, Iranians, the EU and the Arab world. Let's hope the winds of war in Iran passes soon. Let's hope Georgia gets run-over by Russia. Let's hope the Turkish border remains closed. Armenian will do well looking north and south. As a matter of fact, much to the disappointment of Ankara and Washington DC, the Armenian economy has been doing relatively well despite the Turkic blockade.
      how RACIST,narrow minded and utopic person you are.With your excellent ideas,Armenians will be happy in the future,sure!When taking with the lands,all problem will be solved.

      Oh poority,sorry but It sounds as farts of a donkey.

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

        Great essay enker.

        I'll have to plagarize from this every once in a while -- I'm sure you won't mind.

        Originally posted by Armenian
        A prosperous Armenia is not within the long term interest of the Turkish nation - simply because we Armenians want lands and reparations. No self-respecting Turk is going to give away strategic lands to us Armenians. Trust me on that. Moreover, the Turks will not give us reparations because it would ruin their already small bank accounts. Moreover, giving us lands or reparations is a Pandora's box for them. Once they do it for us, it will be Assyrians, Kurds and Greeks, Cypriots lining up.

        However, the biggest fear Armenian nationalists have is the massive economic and demographic size of Turkey. Theoretically, if the Republic of Armenia engages in open trade, and all is civil between us and the Turks, there is a great danger that the Republic of Armenia, as small and as isolated as it is, will become desperately dependent on Turkey for survival. This is the biggest long term fear that Armenia has with regards to open trade with Turkey.

        I personally feel that we can not have official relations with Turkey as long as we have national demands. And, as far as I am concerned, the Armenian diaspora has demands and, as a matter of fact, the Armenian Republic has demands as well, although for diplomatic reasons they will not discuss it. Moreover, I really don't see any substantial benefit in having open borders with Turkey. Turkey produces cheap goods, nothing else. Armenia needs to concentrate on better relations with Iran, Russia and the EU. At least there we know that our existence is actually within their national interests.

        The Turkish border is the longest, therefore, simplest, cheapest and quickest route for transporting goods. The Georgian border is short, risky, unstable and under-developed. The Iranian border is tiny and Iran has serious long-term geo-political problems. Under these circumstances, the worst thing that can happen to Armenia is to have open borders and normal relations with Turks. Economically Turks can overwhelm us within a very short period of time. And once your main source of income is placed within the hands of the enemy - kiss your vor, and your national interests, goodbye. I am surprised more Armenians have not been able to see the long term risks in all this. However, I suspect that many serious political organization within Armenia and the Diaspora, especially the ARF, do see the long term risks with having open borders with Turkey.

        It is very troubling that we Armenians have simply forgotten that Turkey was ready to invade Armenia in 1993. This was in '1993' not in 1905 or 1918 or 1921. This was in modern times. You know, the modern 'civilized' Turk. Rest assured, power-brokers in Turkey hate us and they fear us they would love for us to simply disappear. If is was not for the South Caucasus command of the Russian Army, Yerevan today would have been an occupied Armenian city as well.

        In short: Armenia today serves the geo-political interest of Iran and Russia and to a lesser extent the European Union. However, Armenia does not serve the long term interest of Turkey and obviously, Azerbaijan. And that is why we can't have any real close relations with Turks. Simply put, a prosperous Armenia is not in their long term interest. As far as Americans are concerned, they are there today, and gone tomorrow - when their 'interests' disappear. When it comes to Armenan issues, we obviously can't trust Washington DC.

        We Armenians need to concentrate on building closer economic and political relations with Russians, Iranians, the EU and the Arab world. Let's hope the winds of war in Iran passes soon. Let's hope Georgia gets run-over by Russia. Let's hope the Turkish border remains closed. Armenian will do well looking north and south. As a matter of fact, much to the disappointment of Ankara and Washington DC, the Armenian economy has been doing relatively well despite the Turkic blockade.

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

          Originally posted by skhara
          Great essay enker.

          I'll have to plagarize from this every once in a while -- I'm sure you won't mind.
          I have to agree. Very sober and logical analysis Armenian. I personally feel a bit like a cheat though when I say the border should be closed, because I don't have to struggle in the republic. But then again, as several experts have stated, the economic relief won't be real, it won't be lasting. I would think it'd be a bit like the tax breaks offered in US. The key is internal progress, which is taking place, even though very slowly.

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

            Great essay
            I'agree the border must stay clost till we have our lands back one way or an other we'll get them back from the Orkish(turkish) horde

            Comment


            • #96
              Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

              Originally posted by karoaper
              I have to agree. Very sober and logical analysis Armenian. I personally feel a bit like a cheat though when I say the border should be closed, because I don't have to struggle in the republic.
              I understand what you are saying aper.

              However, in the short term, opening the borders will only serve the interests of select few 'businessmen,' low wage migrant laborers and freelance prostitutes. Open borders may also in the short term lower the costs of certain imported goods into Armenia. At the same time, however, open borders in the 'long-term' means risking economic dependency on a nation that is essentially your enemy. What's more, we may also have an influx of thousands of uneducated Kurdish laborers pouring into Armenia as well.

              As a result, what justice, what reparations, what lands, can we Armenians speak of when we are engaged in such 'healthy' economic relations with those who we claim were responsible for the murder of two million Armenians and the destruction of 90% of our historic lands. And you think a certain segment of our society is corrupt, backward and 'asiatic' now... Wait till thousand of Turks and Kurds begin to pour into Armenia, then you will see how 'asiatic' Armenians can truly become.

              At the turn of the twentieth century vast majority of Armenians in Anatolia were more-or-less Turkifed, we were essentially Christian Turks then. The revolutionary parties at the time (Dashnaks and Hnchaks) fought against this pathetic condition by awakening the spirit of nationalism. However, Armenian nationalists at the time were very small in number. And that is one of the main reasons why Turks managed to do what they did in 1915. At any given time, Armenians who wanted to fight Turks were very few in number, most were simple non-nationalistic folk, much like our 'Polsahias' of today. The main factor that helped Armenia rekindle its national culture was being 'totally' cut-off from Turks, Kurds and Persians after the First World War - thanks to the Soviet Union.

              The thing to remember is that Turkey and Azerbaijan are Armenia's most 'convenient' routes for economic trade. Once Armenian trade begins to flow through Turkey and Azerbaijan, Armenia, being as small and as isolated as it is, will become dangerously dependent upon Ankara and Baku. Once we get into that 'turkic' situation Armenia as we know it will simply disappear. In other words, once you put your national interests firmly in the hands of corrupt businessmen, forget about national interests.

              Some people say: What if Turkey did 'this or did that' to reconcile with Armenians. Can't we trade with them then?

              I say: By the time Turkey did what they need to do in order to reconcile with Armenians - the nation of Turkey as we know it won't exist.

              As far as I know no self-respecting Turk is willing to give a sincere apology, reparations that must run in the many billions of US dollars, and a healthy portion of eastern Turkey. Thus, do you really think Ankara will have good economic intentions, let alone any other good intentions towards Armenia? Thus, don't count on Turkey apologizing, giving reparation or lands. As a result, we don't need the borders open for reasons of our national interests. I don't know about you, but I would 'not' want to see 'friendly' relations with Turks under such conditions.

              Also, lets realize that closed borders may force Armenians to seriously look towards Russia, EU and Iran for survival and growth.

              Do you really think that trading with 'two' million impoverished landlocked Armenians on their eastern border is going to make or break the Turkish economy? Well, trade with Turks may actually break us Armenians in the long term. In this regard, I careless what the average 'Yerevantsi' thinks. I don't give a damn about what average 'akhpar' thinks. I don't give a crap about what the average impoverished Armenian thinks. I am only concerned about the long-term health and survival of the nation - our Fatherland. My advise for anyone looking at such national matters is to look beyond the individual. Individuals come and go, thus its not prudent to alter our national agenda to appease the ignorant and/or hungry masses.

              The well being of the Fatherland is above all.
              Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:

              Նժդեհ


              Please visit me at my Heralding the Rise of Russia blog: http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

                Originally posted by Armenian
                I understand what you are saying aper.

                My advise for anyone looking at such national matters is to look beyond the individual. Individuals come and go, thus its not prudent to alter our national agenda to appease the ignorant and/or hungry masses.

                The well being of the Fatherland is above all.
                You have an excellent point on the importance of the nation above the individual. This may not be applicable everywhere but it is pertinent that Armenians adopt this attitude to overcome the many crosses we bear as a people.
                However, the conspiracy may have already begun. If a few people in power think only of themselves to the detriment of the masses then the betrayal of Armenia has already occurred. What the ignorant/hungry masses are doing is imitating bad leaders out of desperation. Unity comes from the top.
                As you stated and I whole heartily agree, "The well being of the Fatherland is above all."
                If the current pool of Armenian leaders lack the resolve to skip a couple of meals to insure the masses are fed then they are not the leaders to inspire and unite all Armenians against our true enemies. Fortunately there is fresh Armenian blood to infuse change into our nation from every corner of this world. It will take time and the devotion of those like you who think beyond themselves.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

                  this is a joke

                  why dream of this ridiculous armenia, when u can help armenia today.

                  do you think those who sleep hungry in armenia care about western armenian land?
                  you think those who are ill in dilapidated hospitals care about it?
                  you think the unemployed want to lose blood on these diasporan ideals?

                  no. grow up.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

                    Originally posted by Kamo
                    this is a joke

                    why dream of this ridiculous armenia, when u can help armenia today.

                    do you think those who sleep hungry in armenia care about western armenian land?
                    you think those who are ill in dilapidated hospitals care about it?
                    you think the unemployed want to lose blood on these diasporan ideals?

                    no. grow up.
                    you are so wise. maybe you can move to Armenia and run for President and fix all the problems that Armenians face. Can you outline your platform for me maybe I can help you iron out details.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

                      Originally posted by Kamo
                      this is a joke

                      why dream of this ridiculous armenia, when u can help armenia today. do you think those who sleep hungry in armenia care about western armenian land? you think those who are ill in dilapidated hospitals care about it?
                      you think the unemployed want to lose blood on these diasporan ideals?

                      no. grow up.
                      Backward 'geghatsi' individuals like you have never mounted to anything in our society. Throughout history, your like have been pathetic cannon fodder for Turks and Bolsheviks alike. When I say we need to ignore the 'ignorant' masses, my words are meant to apply towards individuals like you.
                      Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:

                      Նժդեհ


                      Please visit me at my Heralding the Rise of Russia blog: http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/

                      Comment

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