The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

[Armenian]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Serbia will take Kosovo back when the opportunity presents itself. But no doubt this is rubbing it in Russia's face, and Russia knows that. It's a very sad day for Serbia.

Serbia will sooner-or-later attempt to reclaim Kosovo. And this is, in final analysis, all about Russia.

My worry is that with Kosovo independent, the attack on Serbia will continue both with the Muslims in Raska and with the Hungarians in Vojvodina. Furthermore, Albanians are currently rampant and will lay claim to other areas of Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia, and Greece.

They have been doing to Serbia what they wished they could do to Armenia. And now, attacks against Serbia will continue in other forms. They will attempt to see that Serbia becomes a failed state. This will be difficult for Serbia because it now essentially landlocked and surrounded by unfriendly powers. Serbia should have fought NATO in full scale in 1999 instead of capitulating. Serbia should have elected a hardliner. So, Serbia is also to be blamed for this. Western interests can only do what you allow them to do.

At some point, Russia will need to speak up. It really feels like it's the 1870s all over again - with Orthodox Christian states being attacked on the one side by the Muslims and on the other by the German-Catholic alliance. Only Russia can do something, but will she?

Well, Russia has been "speaking up," quite loudly as a matter of fact. However, what's needed here is not speech but action. I am sure plans are being put into place. Moscow will most definitely take advantage of this situation by first consolidating its hold in the Caucasus. This will also have some positive impact on the Armenian situation in Nagorno Karabagh. In final analysis, sooner or later, there will be another war in the Balkans this time it will be even be bigger.

I notice that you only react to Serbian related issues, are you an Armenian?

[Merv]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Serbia will sooner-or-later attempt to reclaim Kosovo. And this is, in final analysis, all about Russia.



They have been doing to Serbia what they wished they could do to Armenia. And now, attacks against Serbia will continue in other forms. They will attempt to see that Serbia becomes a failed state. This will be difficult for Serbia because it now essentially landlocked and surrounded by unfriendly powers. Serbia should have fought NATO in full scale in 1999 instead of capitulating. Serbia should have elected a hardliner. So, Serbia is also to be blamed for this. Western interests can only do what you allow them to do.



Well, Russia has been "speaking up," quite loudly as a matter of fact. However, what's needed here is not speech but action. I am sure plans are being put into place. Moscow will most definitely take advantage of this situation by first consolidating its hold in the Caucasus. This will also have some positive impact on the Armenian situation in Nagorno Karabagh. In final analysis, sooner or later, there will be another war in the Balkans this time it will be even be bigger.

I notice that you only react to Serbian related issues, are you an Armenian?

No, I am mostly Serbian and a bit Slovenian and French. But with the relentless attack on Serbia in the past two decades I have come to become something of an "Orthodox-o-phile." Looking back, I feel like a lot of the past 800 years of eastern European history may be characterized as a systematic policy of the Catholic states of Europe, independently or in alliance with the Muslims, to work towards the destruction of first Byzantium and then Russia and her real or potential allies. Religiously I'm Protestant, but I feel a very strange affinity towards some other nations, particularly Russians, Armenians, and Greeks. I don't really know why. I respond to Balkan issues and a bit to Russian issues mostly because I known something about them. My understanding of Armenia and particularly modern Armenian political developments is poor, so I really enjoy reading this forum, not only for the articles but also your insights, which I must say are most astute.

Actually, I was a bit puzzled by your comment a while back that you thought the Byzantine empire and the Greeks more generally were *worse* for Armenia than Turkey. I thought that was quite a bizarre statement, as I had always thought Helleno-Armenian relations were good and that Armenians were an intergral part of the Byzantine empire. If you could talk a bit more about why you find Greece to be a negative player in Armenian history and, as counterbalance, Russia a positive one, that would be much appreciated.

Also, given that Greece is currently a member of NATO and the EU, do you feel that it has any role to play in the "Orthodox sphere" in which Russia, Armenia, and Serbia lie? I feel that Bulgaria and Romania are too weak/wishy-washy anyway, and Georgia (surprisingly? unsurprisingly?) has quite clearly chosen her own side.

And btw, I agree with you that the decisive moment to fight for Kosovo was 1999. Of course, if it came to a ground invasion we would have another Iraq/Vietnam type situation and Serbia would be destroyed, so I think Milosevic and others didn't feel that it was worth having Serbia utterly destroyed over Kosovo. But then again, if that was the feeling, it does show a bit of lack of commitment/ambivalence over the territory. It is, pragmatically speaking, a bit difficult to sacrifice your people over a territory in which you have practically none of your own left, regardless of historical issues and justice.

[Armenian]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

No, I am mostly Serbian and a bit Slovenian and French.

OK, makes more sense now. What brought you to this site, if I may ask?

But with the relentless attack on Serbia in the past two decades I have come to become something of an "Orthodox-o-phile." Looking back, I feel like a lot of the past 800 years of eastern European history may be characterized as a systematic policy of the Catholic states of Europe, independently or in alliance with the Muslims, to work towards the destruction of first Byzantium and then Russia and her real or potential allies.

Yes, interesting. Similarly, I have become a Russophile myself. And, in my opinion, history repeats only because 'we' repeat. The closer you look at history and compare events the more you realize that it is essentially the same situations, the same characters, the same geopolitical dynamics, under different names and different places. My sense is that history is not linear, it's circular.

Religiously I'm Protestant, but I feel a very strange affinity towards some other nations, particularly Russians, Armenians, and Greeks. I don't really know why. I respond to Balkan issues and a bit to Russian issues mostly because I known something about them. My understanding of Armenia and particularly modern Armenian political developments is poor, so I really enjoy reading this forum, not only for the articles but also your insights, which I must say are most astute.

I suggest you drop the Protestant nonsense as soon as possible. It seems as if you are ready to accept the Orthodox Christ into your life, if not spiritually then at the very least, culturally... What's more, in my opinion, your affinity towards things "Orthodox" may have to do with a previous life of yours. And thank you for the compliment.

Actually, I was a bit puzzled by your comment a while back that you thought the Byzantine empire and the Greeks more generally were *worse* for Armenia than Turkey. I thought that was quite a bizarre statement, as I had always thought Helleno-Armenian relations were good and that Armenians were an intergral part of the Byzantine empire. If you could talk a bit more about why you find Greece to be a negative player in Armenian history and, as counterbalance, Russia a positive one, that would be much appreciated.

How do you know of my comments regarding Byzantium? Regardless of how, you are somewhat misrepresenting what I have stated. Greek-Armenian relations are normal today only as a result of what occurred in the Ottoman Empire back during the First World War. Prior to those tragic events, relations between Armenians and Greeks were cold, at best. In my opinion, as well as the opinions of Armenian historians, the fundamental reason why Turks exist in Anatolia today is primarily because of the centuries long anti-Armenian policies of Byzantium. Although Armenians played a monumental role in Byzantium during certain time periods, at other times, however, the Byzantine leadership were pursuing a policy of ethnic cleansing against Armenians.

The severity of the social and political antagonisms that existed within the Greek Orthodox clergy and Byzantine nobility towards Armenians is ominously recorded by a late seventh century Armenian historian known as Sebeos in a writings known as Historie d’ Heraclius. Considered apocryphal writing by some historians, nevertheless, Sebeos clearly exposes the overall atmosphere of the severe hostility that existed within the sixth and seventh centuries between Greeks and Armenians. The content of the letter eerily echoes that of the genocidal rhetoric of the Turkish authorities against the Armenians of the Ottoman Empire during the First World War. In one of Sebeos recounts, Emperor Maurice supposedly sends an official letter to the Persian Shah. In it he writes:

"They (the Armenians) are a disloyal and disobedient nation. They stand between us and create dissentions. Let us make an agreement, I will gather up mine and send them to Thrace, let you gather up yours and order them east. If they should perish there, then enemies will have perished and if they should kill others, it is our enemies that they will kill, and we shall live in peace, for, as long as they shall remain in their country we shall have no rest."

There you have it. Our first genocide.

We Armenians lost our last royal dynasty, our last kingdom and some of our best nobility in the eleventh century primarily as a result of determined Byzantine aggression against us. Many bloody wars were fought between Byzantines and Armenians. Large numbers of Armenians were forcefully displaced into the remotest regions of the empire, thereby gravely weakening the Armenian state. Byzantines would even encourage Turkic (Seljuk) raids into Armenian lands. When Byzantium pursued normal relations with Armenians, Armenia would serve as an impregnable fortress against eastern and southern incursions. After the concerted efforts of undermining of the Armenian state by Byzantium, however, Armenia eventually ceased to exists as a powerful state. As a result, without Armenian military help, Byzantium proved to be woefully ineffective against the increasing power of the Seljuks, as revealed in the historic battle of Manzigerd in 1071 AD. In the aftermath of the battle in question, the whole of Anatolia eventually fell victim to Turkic hordes. And the rest is history, the blackest pages in our history...

Here are my thoughts on this topic: http://forum.armenianclub.com/showpo...42&postcount=2

None of this should have any bearing on politics today. What's done is done. History has thought both Armenians and Greeks a hard lesson. However, ancient animosities die hard. There are Greeks today that still look down at Armenians, some even call us Turkish gypsies. And the Greek Orthodox Church still considers the Armenian Church heretical. Do you want to really piss-off Greek clergy? Tell him that Armenians were the first nation to accept Christianity. Watch them go off... Their attitudes are simply speaking, medieval. I have noticed that if you don't 'worship' Greeks or recognize their 'superiority' over you, they will take offense. And when I encounter such types of Greeks, I usually give them a piece of my mind. Nevertheless, on a 'social' level I enjoy Greek society and I feel a certain affinity towards them. However, politically, I would 'never' rely on them.

And regarding Russo-Armenian relations, I think its self explanatory why Armenians seek to maintain close relations with Russia. Our dealings with Russians have been extensive, they are on all levels, and they go back centuries. Although we have had some difficult moments in dealing with them, they have been one of the factors why Armenia exists today. As a matter of fact, it's scary to think of what would have become of Armenia had there not been a powerful Russian state in the region.

Here are my feelings regarding Armenian-Russian relations: http://forum.armenianclub.com/showth...t=8071&page=72

Also, given that Greece is currently a member of NATO and the EU, do you feel that it has any role to play in the "Orthodox sphere" in which Russia, Armenia, and Serbia lie? I feel that Bulgaria and Romania are too weak/wishy-washy anyway, and Georgia (surprisingly? unsurprisingly?) has quite clearly chosen her own side.

My dream, a union of Orthodox nations forming a - Neo-Byzantium! The most pivotal nation in this equation, the nation with the most potential, is obviously the Russian Federation. Forget about Georgians, they are worthless. They will prove to be an obstacle, as a matter of fact. Serbs, I'm afraid, seem to be sitting on the fence. Perhaps you can tell me which direction they will be heading. Other eastern European Slavs seem to be too vulnerable, too dependent on the West, at this time. Armenia and Belarus have more-or-less joined Russia. And Greece can 'potentially' have an important role to play in this respects. And this is the fundamental reason why policy makers in the US have often times favored Turks over Greeks. But, as I said, I would not place much political hope on the Greek nation. They, as a people, are much too complacent. In other words, they do not have the fire within them, nor do they care about longterm geopolitical considerations.

And btw, I agree with you that the decisive moment to fight for Kosovo was 1999. Of course, if it came to a ground invasion we would have another Iraq/Vietnam type situation and Serbia would be destroyed, so I think Milosevic and others didn't feel that it was worth having Serbia utterly destroyed over Kosovo. But then again, if that was the feeling, it does show a bit of lack of commitment/ambivalence over the territory. It is, pragmatically speaking, a bit difficult to sacrifice your people over a territory in which you have practically none of your own left, regardless of historical issues and justice

Despite my blunt talk at times, I do realize how difficult it must have been for Serbian policy makers at the time. Militarily speaking, I personally don't think that a land invasion of Serbia by NATO forces would have succeeded. However, like you said, the devastation in Serbia would have been great.

[Merv]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

OK, makes more sense now. What brought you to this site, if I may ask?

Well, as I mentioned, I've become rather an Armenophile. Both from what I learned about Armenians being the first Christian state, and also because of the genocide. I came to identify a bit with them based on the bad experiences Serbs had with the Turks, which although it never reached the point of genocide as in the Armenian case, was pretty traumatic for Serbs as a people. I enjoy learning more about them by reading a fourm such as this.

How do you know of my comments regarding Byzantium?

Well you mentioned this on this thread many pages back.

There are Greeks today that still look down at Armenians, some even call us Turkish gypsies. And the Greek Orthodox Church still considers the Armenian Church heretical. Do you want to really piss-off Greek clergy? Tell him that Armenians were the first nation to accept Christianity. Watch them go off... Their attitudes are simply speaking, medieval. I have noticed that if you don't 'worship' Greeks or recognize their 'superiority' over you, they will take offense. And when I encounter such types of Greeks, I usually give them a piece of my mind. Nevertheless, on a 'social' level I enjoy Greek society and I feel a certain affinity towards them. However, politically, I would 'never' rely on them.

Interesting and very sad. It would actually be surprising if Byzantium managed to survive 1000 years of assaults by the Slavs, Avars, Bulgars, Persians, Arabs, Crusaders, and Turks if it *weren't* for some very distasteful policies and behaviors. Basil the Bulgar-Slayer and Empress Eirene's behavior to her own son illustrates the savagery the Byzantines were capable of.

Frankly, I'm not surprised about the Greeks. I have observed a certain arrogance of ancient cultures vis-a-vis more modern cultures. I've seen it in Greeks, Persians, Chinese, xxxs, and even Armenians. It's somewhat understandable but also annoying. I have been a bit "enthralled" with the Greeks myself, so I suppose they must suffer from a bit of narcissism as well. I am fascinated by their single-handed influence in Western and even large parts of Middle Eastern civilization, from the philosophers and the scientists, to the dramatists, sculptors, and politicans. They are truly the foundation of our civilization. It's a bit easy in this starry-eyed Hellenophilia to completely lose sight of the less savory aspects of Greek culture and history, some elements of which you yourself outlined vis-a-vis their attitude to Armenians.

My dream, a union of Orthodox nations forming a - Neo-Byzantium! The most pivotal nation in this equation, the nation with the most potential, is obviously the Russian Federation. Forget about Georgians, they are worthless. They will prove to be an obstacle, as a matter of fact. Serbs, I'm afraid, seem to be sitting on the fence. Perhaps you can tell me which direction they will be heading. Other eastern European Slavs seem to be too vulnerable, too dependent on the West, at this time. Armenia and Belarus have more-or-less joined Russia. And Greece can 'potentially' have an important role to play in this respects. And this is the fundamental reason why policy makers in the US have often times favored Turks over Greeks. But, as I said, I would not place much political hope on the Greek nation. They, as a people, are much too complacent. In other words, they do not have the fire within them, nor do they care about longterm geopolitical considerations.

My analysis is as follows: Greece will swing to the Russians only if she is pressed sufficiently, such as giving Epirus to the Albanians or launching the Turks against them. American support of the Turks over the Greeks, despite Turkey's appalling history and current state, is obvious to all. Israel's connection in all this is equally apparent.

The Slavs are by no means a conglomerate. Catholic Slavs are some of the worst enemies of Orthodoxy you could imagine. What Croatia did to Orthodox Christians in WWII is unspeakable - they were worse than Nazis. Similarly, what Poland did in Russia during the Times of the Troubles and in Ukraine for over 300 years of Rzeczpospolita set that region up for future disasters, including the awful relations over the centuries between Poles, Russians, Ukrainians and xxxs. The only western Slav nation I could ever see potentially swinging towards Russia would be the Czechs. The Czechs have always been the most pan-Slavist of the western Slavs (Poles were never this way), and were originally Orthodox Christians evangelized and brought to literacy by Cyril and Methodius. They were Catholicized by the Saxon Catholic priests, but they always retained a sort of religious stubborness against the German-Catholic hegemon, which expressed itself in the form of Jan Hus and the Hussites - forerunners of Protestantism. They also had the medieval religious thinker Petr Chelcicky who espoused radical pacifism and quasi-socialism, something later picked up by Leo Tolstoy. So, it is only they of the western Slavs that I could conceive of aligning with Russia, and only if Germany/EU/US did something sufficiently awful to drive them towards Russia.

The other Orthodox of Eastern Europe are a bit hodge-podge. I don't trust the Bulgarians or Romanians at all. In both world wars, Bulgaria sided with Germans over Russians and attacked Serbia in both cases. My grandfather survived Bulgarian attempts on his life both as a 5 year old in 1915 (they massacred his village) and again during WWII when they were part of the fascist occupation. This may have changed over time, but I still feel like they have a bad grudge against Serbs and especially Greeks; they love Russians, though. Romanians were quite brutal in WWII and have this unfortunate sense of superiority over Slavs because they speak a Latin tongue. Their "French connection" leads away from the Orthodox sphere, and I don't think they have good feelings towards Russia at all.

As for Serbia, well I think that as you said many people there are deluded dolts. Like an abuse victim, they've come to internalize Western verbal abuse and calumny from the past 18 years and try to find a way to blame themselves for everything that was done not only *by* them but *to* them. Thus, according to their logic, Milosevic is to blame for Croatia expelling 400,000 Serbs! I think a large portion of the population, especially the young, still thinks they're getting into the EU. But this Kosovo "independence" has opened the eyes of some people and they now - only now - realize that they are *never* joining the EU and that the West wishes them no good. I feel that deep down in their soul Serbs really know that they are of the Byzantine sphere, and that deep down they are really Russia's sister. Armenia has been "lucky" to not experience this "tug-of-war" by virtue of their isolation in a hostile Muslim territory (although that's a pretty awful situation to be in), but for Serbia, this "navigation" over the past century between West and East has been a difficult one. If two world wars and the 1990s-present hasn't been enough to convince them, then I think they are truly hopeless. They must come to their senses in time.

[HayotzAmrotz]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

For some reason I’ve always had a soft spot for the Serbian people, and I became even more pro-Serb after making friends with a number of Serbs, one of them, a veteran of the last Balkan war, eventually became one of my closest friends.

Serbs would never give up on Kosovo, not in million years, but the only way to return Kosovo is to fight for it, there is absolutely no other option but to shed blood. Is the Serbian society ready for that? Today, I don’t believe it is. However tomorrow could be a very different story, and tomorrow Serbs could (and should) go to war to take Kosovo back. Would it be a suicide mission? Not at all! It is something that should have happened back in 1999 but it didn’t because their leadership was not committed enough and Russia wasn’t the Russia of today. As for NATO it would never send ground forces to Serbia as it would become a European Vietnam without a doubt.

Russia now will seriously strengthen her presence in the South Caucasus and the possibility of South Ossetia and Abkhazia being recognized by Russia has become very real. I would welcome that move as I have the deepest respect for the people of South and North Ossetia because of their unconditional support for us during the Artsakh war. I will never forget hundreds of volunteers from Ossetia who came to Artsakh and fought against the Azeris. Many of them never made back home, may God bless their heroic souls. I believe Abkhazia too deserves independence. Our community there has never experienced discrimination unlike Armenians from Javakhq who have been and continue to be discriminated by the Georgians.

[Armenian]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Quite reminiscent of the event when an undetected Chinese submarine surfaced amongst a US Naval carrier battle group in the Pacific Ocean a couple of years ago, last weekend's incident between Russian strategic bombers and the USS Nimitz in the western Pacific Ocean was very intriguing to say the least. The great significance of Russian strategic bombers, potentially armed with anti-ship cruise missiles, tracking down a modern carrier battle group on the high seas and actually being able to fly near it before they are intercepted by the ship's aerial defenses is enough to send disturbing alarms across the Pentagon. Russian General Pyotr Deinekin made the following comments regarding the incident: "I want to congratulate our pilots on an undoubted success - the fulfillment of a very complex mission." "To find a supercarrier in the open ocean is a very difficult task. It is like finding a needle in a haystack, and the fact that our fliers were able to do so speaks highly of their skill." "Their mission was not just to fly over, but to take a picture of the vessel to make sure that it was not a dry cargo or container ship, but the Nimitz - the pride and a beauty of the American naval forces." What's interesting here for a military enthusiast like myself is the realistic and aggressive manner in which the combat training mission in question was conducted, especially in targeting the crown jewel of the US military, a naval carrier battle group. According to the news reports released, as the two TU-95 strategic bombers flew low and intercepted the USS Nimitz, another TU-95 circled approximately 50 miles away, with another TU-95 circling a hundred miles away. The distant bombers were used as reserves, backup, most probably acting as missile platforms just in case the initial two scouting bombers encountered trouble as a result of naval air defenses. Although both sides will attempt to down play this incident, militarily speaking, this encounter between Russian strategic bombers and the USS Nimitz is astonishing.

Armenian

****************************************

Joint training

"The uproar in the press about Russian strategic bombers' fly over of the American nuclear-powered aircraft carrier Nimitz is beyond me," General of the Army Pyotr Deinekin, a former commander-in-chief of Russia's Air Force (1991-1998) and Hero of Russia, said. "I want to congratulate our pilots on an undoubted success - the fulfillment of a very complex mission," he said. "To find a supercarrier in the open ocean is a very difficult task. It is like finding a needle in a haystack, and the fact that our fliers were able to do so speaks highly of their skill," he said.

Those were the general's remarks on the reports about an incident that happened in the Pacific the other day when one of the Russian strategic bombers Tu-95MS (whose NATO's reporting name is Bear) twice flew over the Nimitz at a height of about 2,000 feet. The second Tu-95MS was at that time about 50 miles away, seemingly covering and protecting the first. The foreign press reported that after the bombers approached the carrier, four F/A-18Cs took off and "accompanied the Russian planes out of the area." This is normal combat training, General Deinekin said. Actually, it was joint training. "We, Russia and the U.S., are not opponents. We are partners in the fight against terrorism. There are no serious threats posed by our planes appearing over American ships in neutral waters. Their mission was not just to fly over, but to take a picture of the vessel to make sure that it was not a dry cargo or container ship, but the Nimitz - the pride and a beauty of the American naval forces."

The general did not mention that a Russian naval strike group led by the aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov during her maneuvers in the Atlantic was accompanied by American and German warships. British and Norwegian fighters tracked Russia's long-range Tu-160 Blackjack, Tu-95MS Bear and Tu-22M3 Blinder bombers, A-50 early warning and reconnaissance planes, Il-78 Midas tankers and Su-33 carrier-based fighters. French, Italian and Portuguese ships exercised together with Russia's submarine destroyers Admiral Chabanenko and Admiral Levchenko and the missile cruiser Moskva.

No one was surprised. It is normal combat practice for partners. NATO and Russia, as well as Russia and some NATO countries, have signed an agreement on rescue at sea and other documents, in particular on the role of Russian ships in Operation Active Endeavour, mounted by the Mediterranean countries to prevent illegal migration and the transit of drugs and weapons of mass destruction. This job needs to be greeted and continued despite conflicts and problems between partners. "There is no need to go into hysterics over all that," Deinekin said. "The best approach is a calm, easy one." American pilots and sailors on the Nimitz know that Russian long-rangers do not carry live weapons, as Major General Pavel Androsov, commander of the 37th Air Force Battalion, has said time and again. (Tu-169 and Tu-95MS strategic bombers belong to his battalion).

Aboard the planes there are no cruise missiles either with nuclear or conventional warheads. They are not on combat mission, but only on air patrol. Accountable launches are carried out on computers. The carrier's command did not expect an attack from the Russian Bear, and none came. They did not file a protest against the Russians. Just as NATO pilots never protest about the Tu aircraft they accompany over the ocean, General Androsov said. Joint training goes on. And if the media and some politicians seek a pretext for sensational charges and claims, no one can ban them from doing that. They will find one all the same.

Source: http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20080213/99111861.html

Pentagon, Senate Concerned About Tu-95 Flights over Nimitz

U.S. Senator Ben Nelson will urge the Armed Service Committee to discuss flights of Russia’s Tu-95 bombers over U.S. aircraft carrier Nimitz, RIA Novosti reported. The senator views actions of Russia’s pilots as provocation and vowed to talk them over in Senate. Meanwhile, people in Pentagon said they are studying the incident in an effort to understand Russia’s purpose when ordering its bombers to fly close to the U.S. vessels. Four Tu-95 bombers of Russia were patrolling the Pacific February 9 and 10. The flights were made over neutral waters without breaching international borders, representatives of Russia’s Air Force said. At the same time, they aknowledged that the bombers were escorted by fighters of Japan and United States and the U.S. fighters took off exactly from Nimitz.

Source: http://www.kommersant.com/p-12043/Tu-95_Nimitz/

[Armenian]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Well, as I mentioned, I've become rather an Armenophile.

Thank you, comrade. Armenian nationalists are staunchly pro-Serb, and they have always been. There is a certain affinity between Armenians and Serbs. Perhaps this stems from our Orthodox faith, similar history and the origins of the Serbian people which some historians claim was located somewhere around the Caspian Sea region. Regarding us Armenians, just realize that there is much more to our national heritage than the Armenian Genocide and our early acceptance of Christianity. However, I must say that you would never realize that by dealing with average Armenians...

Interesting and very sad. It would actually be surprising if Byzantium managed to survive 1000 years of assaults by the Slavs, Avars, Bulgars, Persians, Arabs, Crusaders, and Turks if it *weren't* for some very distasteful policies and behaviors. Basil the Bulgar-Slayer and Empress Eirene's behavior to her own son illustrates the savagery the Byzantines were capable of.

Ironically, most of their military aristocracy and many of the greatest Byzantine figures, such as Basil the "Bulgar Slayer," Maurice and Heraclius, were of Armenian decent, although most were assimilated into Greek Orthodoxy. Regarding how long they would have lasted had they been not "distasteful" is debatable. I know one thing, Byzantium was its strongest when it nurtured healthy relations with Armenia, their impregnable fortress to their immediate east. However, their famous "Byzantine" style treachery and violence against their subjects and Christian neighbors essentially caused the fall of Asia Minor to Turkic-Islamic hordes and subsequent destruction of the empire itself.

Frankly, I'm not surprised about the Greeks. I have observed a certain arrogance of ancient cultures vis-a-vis more modern cultures. I've seen it in Greeks, Persians, Chinese, xxxs, and even Armenians. It's somewhat understandable but also annoying.

Yes, you are right. However, in the case of Armenians, most Armenians nationalists that I have observed are very accepting of other nations that they perceive to share their plight, nations such as Greeks, Cypriots, Palestinians, Serbs, Macedonians, etc. You will very rarely find an Armenian nationalist that will look down on you, especially if you are of Christian European decent.

I have been a bit "enthralled" with the Greeks myself, so I suppose they must suffer from a bit of narcissism as well. I am fascinated by their single-handed influence in Western and even large parts of Middle Eastern civilization, from the philosophers and the scientists, to the dramatists, sculptors, and politicans. They are truly the foundation of our civilization.

You see this is part of the problem. Because of individuals like you giving them unwarranted, undeserved, unconditional praise, it that makes them act the way they do. The classical Greeks of the ancient world had a major impact only on "western" civilization. They, however, derived their Hellenistic culture, be it architecture, philosophy, theology, alphabet, etc, from earlier Near Eastern cultures such as Egyptian, Phoenician and Babylonian/Sumerian civilizations, and some Armenians would say Urartian civilization as well. What's more, Greeks today are not the "Greeks" of the classical world. Greeks today are more-or-less the surviving remnants of the multi-ethnic society of Byzantium, just as are the Turks. Would you consider a typical American today, a person of mixed heritage who happens to speak English, an Englishman? The same applies to modern Greeks.

It's a bit easy in this starry-eyed Hellenophilia to completely lose sight of the less savory aspects of Greek culture and history, some elements of which you yourself outlined vis-a-vis their attitude to Armenians.

Well, I am not star struck, and have never been. I will accept Greeks as brothers and sisters, as allies, if I see that they have honest intentions towards us. Let's please get off the Greek topic. I don't want to come across as if I "dislike" Greeks. You asked a question, I answered. Let's leave it at that. I am more interested in what is going on in Serbia today.

The Slavs are by no means a conglomerate. Catholic Slavs are some of the worst enemies of Orthodoxy you could imagine. What Croatia did to Orthodox Christians in WWII is unspeakable - they were worse than Nazis. Similarly, what Poland did in Russia during the Times of the Troubles and in Ukraine for over 300 years of Rzeczpospolita set that region up for future disasters, including the awful relations over the centuries between Poles, Russians, Ukrainians and xxxs. The only western Slav nation I could ever see potentially swinging towards Russia would be the Czechs. The Czechs have always been the most pan-Slavist of the western Slavs (Poles were never this way), and were originally Orthodox Christians evangelized and brought to literacy by Cyril and Methodius. They were Catholicized by the Saxon Catholic priests, but they always retained a sort of religious stubborness against the German-Catholic hegemon, which expressed itself in the form of Jan Hus and the Hussites - forerunners of Protestantism. They also had the medieval religious thinker Petr Chelcicky who espoused radical pacifism and quasi-socialism, something later picked up by Leo Tolstoy. So, it is only they of the western Slavs that I could conceive of aligning with Russia, and only if Germany/EU/US did something sufficiently awful to drive them towards Russia.

The other Orthodox of Eastern Europe are a bit hodge-podge. I don't trust the Bulgarians or Romanians at all. In both world wars, Bulgaria sided with Germans over Russians and attacked Serbia in both cases. My grandfather survived Bulgarian attempts on his life both as a 5 year old in 1915 (they massacred his village) and again during WWII when they were part of the fascist occupation. This may have changed over time, but I still feel like they have a bad grudge against Serbs and especially Greeks; they love Russians, though. Romanians were quite brutal in WWII and have this unfortunate sense of superiority over Slavs because they speak a Latin tongue. Their "French connection" leads away from the Orthodox sphere, and I don't think they have good feelings towards Russia at all.

As for Serbia, well I think that as you said many people there are deluded dolts. Like an abuse victim, they've come to internalize Western verbal abuse and calumny from the past 18 years and try to find a way to blame themselves for everything that was done not only *by* them but *to* them. Thus, according to their logic, Milosevic is to blame for Croatia expelling 400,000 Serbs! I think a large portion of the population, especially the young, still thinks they're getting into the EU. But this Kosovo "independence" has opened the eyes of some people and they now - only now - realize that they are *never* joining the EU and that the West wishes them no good. I feel that deep down in their soul Serbs really know that they are of the Byzantine sphere, and that deep down they are really Russia's sister. Armenia has been "lucky" to not experience this "tug-of-war" by virtue of their isolation in a hostile Muslim territory (although that's a pretty awful situation to be in), but for Serbia, this "navigation" over the past century between West and East has been a difficult one. If two world wars and the 1990s-present hasn't been enough to convince them, then I think they are truly hopeless. They must come to their senses in time.

Would it be safe to assume that you have already seen this Russian film? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VKkc1CVSAc

Regarding your geopolitical analysis, I can only say that I agree with all your well informed insight. You have made some very interesting points. Bravo. I also see that you are very concerned about these issues, you take it to heart. This is commendable, especially in this day in age. Thank you for being here. Regarding being caught in a tug-of-war between East and West, the West can only do what we as a people allow them to do. Thus, in final analysis, it's in our hands. However, the fate of nations are, more often than not, in the hands of the ignorant masses.

[Armenian]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

The wheels have begun to turn. Only time now will be able to reveal where it will go and how much destruction it will cause:

Serb anger over Kosovo declaration - 18 Jan 08:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6x9T3MPvqo

World divided over independent Kosovo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnR-WMmFptk

Serb anger and frustration over Kosovo

The morning after Serbia lost Kosovo, the street cleaners in Belgrade were out picking up the glass from the pavements. It followed hours of rioting when up to 1,000 people, mainly football hooligans, rampaged through the city centre smashing windows, pushing huge rubbish bins into the road and wrenching up traffic signs. The violence was interspersed with chants of "Serbia" and "Kosovo is Serbia". Earlier they had targeted the US embassy and the embassy of Slovenia, which currently holds the European Union Presidency. A few rocks were thrown, a few windows were smashed. People were injured and there were a number of arrests.

Show of unity

The scale of the violence, and the numbers involved, were pretty small. But, in a sense, the anger and frustration that spilled onto the streets did fairly represent the feelings of the vast majority of the Serb people. The country's cultural and spiritual heartland was gone. It was now part of another country and that was hard to take. In fact, the official attitude is that nothing has changed. Independence will not be recognised, it will never be recognised, chorused the main political leaders in Belgrade. Indeed, Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica said Serbia would broaden and strengthen its support for Kosovo's Serbs. In a rare show of unity, the leaders of the three main political parties in Belgrade agreed to call for a mass demonstration in the capital on Thursday to show the widespread opposition to independence.

EU 'betrayal'

Serbia and the Serbs feel hurt and betrayed, especially by countries in the EU. And relations between Serbia and the EU are set for a rocky ride, with the EU due to deploy a 2,000-strong mission to the new state of Kosovo over the coming weeks and months. Pristina may have declared independence, but for Belgrade it is business as usual - Kosovo remains an integral part of Serbia" Mr Kostunica summed it up: "As long as Serbs exist, Kosovo is Serbia." One chapter in Kosovo's history may have now closed, but the story is far from over.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7250070.stm

Abkhazia set to ask Russia to recognize its independence

Abkhazia intends to ask Russia to recognize its sovereignty, the president of the de facto independent Georgian republic said on Monday. Asked whether Abkhazia intended to address Russia on the issue of independence in the wake of Kosovo's unilateral declaration of sovereignty on Sunday, Sergei Bagapsh told journalists: "Yes, we do." Both Abkhazia and South Ossetia, another Georgian breakaway republic, declared their independence from Georgia in the wake of the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, and bloody conflicts ensued. Georgia's current leadership has been seeking to recover its influence in the separatist regions and secure international support on the issue. Both republics have expressed a strong desire to join Russia, and Moscow had hinted even before Kosovo's declaration of independence on Sunday that it may recognize Abkhazia and South Ossetia. "The declaration of sovereignty by Kosovo and its recognition will undoubtedly be taken into account in [Russia's] relations with Abkhazia and South Ossetia," the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement last week. South Ossetian President Eduard Kokoity, also on a visit to Moscow, told reporters that the two republics would hold talks with other unrecognized entities on efforts to seek independence. Kokoity said his republic would like to seek independence through Russia's Constitutional Court. "Two years ago we declared our intention to apply to the Russian Constitutional Court. We have a document on a united Ossetia voluntarily joining the Russian Empire in 1774," he said, adding that there were no documents in existence that confirmed the withdrawal of Ossetia from Russia.

Source: http://en.rian.ru/world/20080218/99513243.html

U.S., U.K., France, Germany, Italy Recognize Kosovo Sovereignty

The governments of the United States and the major European Union powers, the United Kingdom, France, Germany and Italy, have expressed their support to Europe's newest nation, the Republic Kosovo. U.S. President George W. Bush, who is in Tanzania for an official state visit, said "the Kosovars are now independent" as he hailed Kosovo's bold and historic bid for statehood. "It's something that I've advocated along with my government," he added. In Brussels, the foreign ministers of the U.K., France, Germany and Italy said that their respective governments will recognize the independence of Kosovo. "The British government has decided to recognize Kosovo," British Foreign Minister David Milliband said after a meeting with his E.U. colleagues. Italian Foreign Minister Massimo D'Alema said Italy would "proceed to recognize" the former Serbian province, while his German counterpart Frank-Walter Steinmeier said his government would meet to do so on Wednesday. Kosovo announced its independence from Serbia over the weekend as Kosavars awaited key backing from the United States and European powers. The new nation is set for a showdown with Serbia, outraged at the loss of its territory, and Serbia's staunchest ally, Russia.

Source: http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7010068936

Serbia recalls ambassador from US

Serbia has recalled its ambassador to Washington in protest at US recognition of Kosovo independence and threatened to withdraw other envoys. Its Prime Minister, Vojislav Kostunica, told parliament in Belgrade that America had "violated international law for its own interests". France, the UK, Germany and Italy have also pledged their support for the new state declared on Sunday. In New York, the UN Security Council is beginning a meeting on the move. Serbian President Boris Tadic is to ask it to annul the independence declaration, and Belgrade is counting on Russia to veto Kosovo joining the UN as a new nation. The leading European states which endorsed independence did so after a meeting of EU foreign ministers in Brussels in which it was agreed that Kosovo should not set a precedent for other states. Spain and several other member-states have withheld recognition because of concerns about international law and separatism.

'First measure'

Mr Kostunica said the recall of Serbia's ambassador to the US was the "first urgent measure of the government which will be implemented in all countries that recognise unilateral independence". Speaking to Serbian TV from New York, President Tadic said he intended to "demand from [UN Secretary General] Ban Ki-moon the immediate annulment of the independence proclamation by the non-existent state in Kosovo". Russia's ambassador to the EU, Vladimir Chizhov, told the BBC that Kosovo had little to gain from declaring independence. "There is no way they will get into the United Nations or the OSCE or the Council of Europe," he said. "So what will they be getting, changing nameplates at the offices of Western countries in Pristina, calling them embassies?" Serbia's interior ministry has filed criminal charges against Kosovo Albanian leaders instrumental in proclaiming independence, accusing them of proclaiming a "false state" on Serbian territory. In Belgrade, about 10,000 students marched in protest at the independence declaration, and Serb enclaves inside Kosovo also saw anti-independence rallies. Serbian security forces were driven out of Kosovo in 1999 after a Nato bombing campaign aimed at halting the violent repression of ethnic Albanian separatists. The province has been under UN administration and Nato protection since then.

[...]

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7251802.stm

[Chinese] Spokesman: Taiwan has no right to "recognize" Kosovo's independence

Taiwan has no right and qualification to recognize Kosovo's independence, a Foreign Ministry spokesman said here Monday. "It is known to all that Taiwan, as a part of China, has no right and qualification at all to make the so-called recognition," Liu Jianchao said in a press release. Liu made the remarks in response to the report that Taiwan authorities congratulated on Kosovo's independence and might recognize it. There is only one China in the world. The commonly accepted consensus is that Taiwan is an inalienable part of the Chinese territory and the government of the People's Republic of China is the sole legitimate government representing the whole of China, said Liu. "We firmly oppose to anyone or any organization under any form to split Taiwan from the mainland. Any attempts that separates Taiwan from the mainland is doomed to fail," Liu said. Kosovo's parliament voted Sunday to adopt a declaration of independence at an extraordinary session on its independence from Serbia. Kosovo was a southern autonomous province within Serbia before the breakup of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Among its population of 2 million, over 90 percent are ethnic Albanians and Serbs make up about 7 percent. Kosovo has been under UN administration since mid-1999, after NATO air strikes drove out Serbian forces from the province.

Source: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...nt_7625025.htm

Russia's Chechen rebels hail Kosovo independence

Chechen rebels fighting to secede from Russia hailed Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence, comparing Pristina's fight against Serbia to their own struggle against Moscow. Russia has strongly opposed Kosovo independence, arguing that to recognize a separatist region as a new state without the consent of the country affected sets a dangerous precedent for scores of other territorial conflicts around the world. The rebels said in a statement published by the Chechenpress Web site that they "welcome the declaration of state independence by Kosovo and do not question the right of the people of Kosovo to distance themselves from the state that terrorized it". The statement, signed by Usman Ferzauli, who styles himself Chechen Foreign Minister, said Chechen rebels "have been leading an armed struggle against the world's most aggressive and militarized power for the latest 14 years". This was a reference to mainly Muslim Chechnya's fight against Russia for independence, which led to two wars in the 1990s, a wave of guerrilla attacks in Moscow, and a brief period of autonomy before Moscow re-established control. Chechnya is today ruled by Ramzan Kadyrov, a former Chechen warlord who switched sides and pledged allegiance to the Kremlin. The province is mainly calm, although isolated attacks continue. "The political authority of the Ichkerian Republic (Chechnya) has always aimed, and is aiming today to fight for freedom and independence," Ferzaulik said in a statement that was issued on Sunday.

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...38576020080218

Azerbaijan says not recognizing Kosovo independence

Ex-Soviet Azerbaijan said on Monday it did not recognize Kosovo's declaration of independence. "We view this illegal act as being in contradiction with international law," said Khazar Ibrahim, head of the press service at Azerbaijan's Foreign Ministry. "Proceeding from this, Azerbaijan's position is clear: it does not recognize (Kosovo's) independence." Kosovo declared its independence from Serbia on Sunday. The United States and most members of the European Union are expected to grant recognition soon. Azerbaijan has been trying to restore control over its breakaway region of Nagorno-Karabakh, where ethnic Armenian separatists threw off Azeri rule in a war in the 1990s that killed about 35,000 people. The separatists' foreign minister said on Sunday Kosovo's independence would help Nagorno-Karabakh's drive for international recognition. Azerbaijan has 34 troops serving in the NATO-led Kosovo peacekeeping force KFOR.

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/newsM...56553120080218

Mitq: Karabakh and Armenia should recognize Kosovo independence

Although proclamation of Kosovo’s independence was quite predictable, Foreign Ministries of Armenia and Nagorno Karabakh were not ready for it, said a statement issued by Mitq analytical center. According to Mitq experts, Karabakh and Armenia should recognize Kosovo’s independence. “Besides, we think that the NKR government should raise the issue of independence and the territories under its control in the UN Security Council… This historical moment offers a golden opportunity for the Karabakh process,” the statement reads.

Source: http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=24902

[Armenian]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Karabakh Ponders Kosovo's Independence

STEPANAKERT, Nagorno-Karabakh -- "What is Kosovo, and what do you eat it with?" quipped Yuan Go, a Chinese cook living in Nagorno-Karabakh. Yuan, who speaks the Karabakh dialect of the Armenian language fluently and goes by the Armenian name of Gurgen, moved to this de facto independent republic more than a year ago. He and two other Chinese cooks work at a hotel restaurant. Yuan, 25, cracked the joke when asked what Kosovo's declaration of independence Sunday meant for Nagorno-Karabakh. He and many other residents seem to have little idea what to expect, but they are hoping that life stays calm in the enclave, which Azerbaijan insists is part of its territory even though its Armenian majority declared independence more than 16 years ago.

Unlike Kosovo, the self-proclaimed Nagorno-Karabakh Republic enjoys no strong support from the European Union or the United States in its bid for independence. But Karabakh Armenians, who, with the support of Armenia, won a bloody war against the Azeris in the 1990s, are seeing parallels with Kosovo and the long struggle of its Albanian majority. For Karabakh's leaders, international recognition of Kosovo's independence would set an important precedent. "We are confident that the recognition of Kosovo by the international community or by individual countries will strengthen our position in negotiations to resolve the conflict with Azerbaijan," Georgy Petrosyan, the foreign minister of the unrecognized republic, said in an interview. Azerbaijan has offered Nagorno-Karabakh broad autonomy within the country during ongoing talks mediated by the Organization for Cooperation and Security in Europe. But Nagorno-Karabakh's population has insisted on independence. The enclave has a population of 137,737, 99.7 percent of whom are Armenian, according to the most recent census, taken in 2005.

"It is important that Kosovo might become an example of a country's independence being recognized against the will" of the country from which it is seceding, Petrosyan said. He said he believed that the solution for Kosovo in its conflict with Serbia should also work for Karabakh in its conflict with Azerbaijan. "A denial of this thesis would amount to a denial of the nature of the precedent and its role in contemporary international relations," he said. Ashot Gulyan, speaker of Karabakh's parliament, agreed. "The situation around Kosovo cannot be perceived as a one-off case," he added. The leaders do not seem discouraged by the fact that Russia, Armenia's closest ally, has avoided mentioning Karabakh when listing other self-styled republics in the former Soviet Union that might be affected by Kosovo's independence bid. During his annual news conference last week, President Vladimir Putin once again accused the West of adopting double standards in insisting that Kosovo's case was unique. He listed Georgia's republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia and Moldova's Transdnestr as territories that might seek to follow Kosovo's lead. Putin, who has been trying to forge closer ties with oil-rich Azerbaijan, did not name Karabakh.

Petrosyan said the omission might be an indication that Russia, which is participating in the OSCE negotiations, "is avoiding statements that would put its impartiality as a mediator in doubt." Russia, however, has also been involved in similar talks between Georgia and South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The Karabakh war erupted after the parliaments of Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh held a joint session on Dec. 1, 1989, to declare the unification of their territories. Azeri deputies from the Nagorno-Karabakh parliament did not participate in the vote. The first clashes along the Armenian-Azeri border broke out the next year, and full-scale fighting started in 1991. On Dec. 10, 1991, Nagorno-Karabakh's Armenian majority overwhelmingly backed a referendum in support of independence for their homeland. The enclave's newly elected parliament established the independent Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh on Jan. 6, 1992.

The war ended in 1994, with Armenian forces driving Azeris out of the enclave and seizing control of several neighboring Azeri districts, forcing their population to flee. Armenian forces still control these districts, while Azeris control the northern tip of Nagorno-Karabakh, from which the Armenian population has fled. A conflict-resolution proposal suggested by OSCE mediators calls for Karabakh to return the districts to Azerbaijan in exchange for the right to hold a new referendum on the enclave's status. Many Karabakh residents do not appear hopeful that international recognition of Kosovo's independence might mean a change for their homeland. "Such issues are resolved the way that world powers want them resolved, even though our cause for independence is more just than Kosovo's," said Juleyetta Arustamyan, a 44-year-old singer who lives in the enclave's main city, Stepanakert. Nune Khachatryan, the 35-year-old owner of a fashion store in Stepanakert, said she is happy for Kosovo's Albanians but not interested in politics. "Honestly speaking, I don't care whether others recognize us or not," she said. "With or without recognition, we will continue to live happily on our own land."

Source: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/storie...02/18/003.html

[crusader1492]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Azerbaijan says not recognizing Kosovo independence

Ex-Soviet Azerbaijan said on Monday it did not recognize Kosovo's declaration of independence. "We view this illegal act as being in contradiction with international law," said Khazar Ibrahim, head of the press service at Azerbaijan's Foreign Ministry. "Proceeding from this, Azerbaijan's position is clear: it does not recognize (Kosovo's) independence." Kosovo declared its independence from Serbia on Sunday. The United States and most members of the European Union are expected to grant recognition soon. Azerbaijan has been trying to restore control over its breakaway region of Nagorno-Karabakh, where ethnic Armenian separatists threw off Azeri rule in a war in the 1990s that killed about 35,000 people. The separatists' foreign minister said on Sunday Kosovo's independence would help Nagorno-Karabakh's drive for international recognition. Azerbaijan has 34 troops serving in the NATO-led Kosovo peacekeeping force KFOR.

It looks like Turkey will recognize Kosovo...I wonder how Azerbaijan will juggle this development.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsMaps/idUSANK00036720080218