The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

[Armanen]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

I would even say it's basically like a form of colonialism

Yep! It's neo-imperialism dressed up with all the labels Armenian mentioned in the above post. In line with this I would recommend all of you who are interested in this topic to read Immanuel Wallerstein's European Universalism: The Rhetoric of Power

http://www.amazon.com/European-Universalism-Rhetoric-Immanuel-Wallerstein/dp/1595580611/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229016772&sr=1-1

[Pazooki]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Thanks for bringing Communism up. It reminds me of what some retard at school said yesterday...

My Classmate *to the teacher* : Will we be marked down a grade if we believe in something besides Democracy, like Communism?

Teacher: No

John: That guy is stupid, he doesn't know that the Genocide started because of Communism.

LOLOL i nearly died of laughter

[Lucin]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

A former Chechen separatist field commander has been killed in Istanbul, Turkish media reports. Islam Dzhanibekov was shot dead on Tuesday outside his apartment in the city, where he has been living for the past six years. Turkish newspaper Sabah cites a police source as saying that the killers used a Groza pistol, which is often associated with Russian special forces.

Interesting and significant. Why was this Chechen seperatist living in Turkey? And why is he being killed (or should I say 'allowed' to be killed) now, after six years?

[Azad]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Interesting and significant. Why was this Chechen seperatist living in Turkey? And why is he being killed (or should I say 'allowed' to be killed) now, after six years?

Looks like the US' s failure in the region from Iraq & Iran's containment to Russia's latest control in the Caucasus with Georgia's war ... is making turkey think twice on showing some rapprochement to Russia.

[TheGreat]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Here are some hot news in Europe that you might not have heard about in the US (We barely hear about it either because the media doesn't say anything about it). We who live in europe have been silenced and our goverments with the European Union have clearly shown that this is not a democracy we live in but a dictatorship.

The Lisbon treaty is basicly a treaty that makes europe into a United states of europe or big soviet. It's mainly planned by Sarkozy who has been planning this with Israel and other pro-zionist politicians. Amongst it's goals are to isolate/get hostile attitude with Russia, Iran and create a Eurabia. With many many more additions but they don't really belong in here. The Lisbon treaty was rejected because of 1 country (Ireland) that had direct voting and the people said no. Sarkozy was not pleased with this at all because it failed to get him into the history books, so now he has gathered information about the failure and pushed again for another vote in Ireland. If this passes the next time Europe will become a super power and a danger for the east and russia. It's all part of the New world order.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurabia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-eighth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland_Bill,_2008

Ireland willing to hold new EU referendum

Thursday 11 December 2008

The Irish government is willing to hold a second referendum on the Lisbon Treaty provided certain conditions are met, the country's foreign affairs minister said. Voters in Ireland rejected the EU reform treaty in June.

AFP - Ireland would be willing to hold a new referendum by October 2009 on the European Union's controversial reform treaty in exchange for guarantees, according to a draft statement Thursday.

The decision, if confirmed at a two-day EU summit in Brussels starting later Thursday, would pave the way for the Lisbon Treaty to take effect by the end of next year.

"The Irish government is committed to seeking ratification of the Lisbon Treaty by the end of the term of the current commission," said the draft text, prepared by ambassadors for EU leaders.

The mandate of the EU's executive arm ends in October 2009.

Ireland, whose voters rejected the vast treaty of reforms in June, is constitutionally bound to ratify the text via a referendum. The other 26 EU member states have done, or are doing so, through parliament.

The rejection of the treaty, over fears it would deprive Dublin of a prestigious commissioner and concerns about interference in its military neutrality and abortion laws, sparked a major EU institutional crisis.

The reform package is designed to streamline the working of the expanded EU and reducing the number of policy commissioners was one of the many measures included.

The EU "agrees that provided the Lisbon Treaty enters into force, a decision will be taken, in accordance with the necessary legal procedures, to the effect that the commission shall continue to include one national of each member state," the leaders say in a major concession, according to the text.

Under the treaty as it stands, only two-thirds of member states would be allowed to appoint a commissioner, and the Irish people feared they might find themselves in the other third.

In comments to German daily Die Welt, Irish European Affairs Minister xxxx Roche said: "From a constitutional point of view there's no other choice than a second referendum."

In Brussels, "we shan't be as yet fixing a date for a new referendum. We'll only do that once the concerns voiced by the Irish people who voted 'No' in the first referendum have been addressed," he added.

Later Thursday, Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen is set to tell his European partners how he intends to end the impasse.

The commissioner issue had appeared to be the thorniest, with other questions more a matter of reassuring Irish voters rather than changing elements of the painstakingly-assembled treaty.

Irish ratification would take place "conditional on the satisfactory completion of the detailed follow-on work by mid-2009 and on presumption of their satisfactory implementation", the document said.

In a separate annex, the leaders note concerns raised by Cowen, including maintaining Irish neutrality and ensuring that the treaty will not interfere with national laws on the "right to life, education and the family".

It notes that EU taxation areas will not be broadened, and commits to the protection of workers' rights, social progress and attaches high importance to public services.

At the summit, the leaders will underline that the treaty "is considered necessary in order to help the enlarged Union to function more efficiently, more democratically and more effectively including in international affairs".

And they will commit to try to have it enter into force "by the end of 2009".

http://www.france24.com/en/20081211-ireland-eu-reform-lisbon-treaty-vote-second-referendum

[TheGreat]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

2008-12-11 Zionist Daniel Cohn-Bendit slams on Czech President Vaclav Klaus.





Czech President: Democracy and Freedom Are Losing Ground in Europe

Daniel Cohn-Bendit MEP: I brought you a flag, which – as we heard – you have everywhere here at the Prague Castle. It is the flag of the European Union, so I will place it here in front of you.
It will be a tough Presidency...

Lisbon Treaty – I don’t care about your opinions on it. I want to know what you are going to do if the Czech Chamber of Deputies and the Senate approve it. Will you respect the will of the representatives of the people? You will have to sign it.

I want you to explain to me what is the level of your friendship with Mr Ganley from Ireland. How can you meet a person whose funding is unclear? You are not supposed to meet him in your function. It is a man whose finances come from problematic sources and he wants to use them to be funding his election campaign into the EP.

President Vaclav Klaus: I must say that nobody has talked to me in such a style and tone for the past 6 years. You are not on the barricades in Paris here. I thought that these manners ended for us 18 years ago but I see I was wrong. I would not dare to ask how the activities of the Greens are funded. If you are concerned about a rational discussion in this half an hour, which we have, please give the floor to someone else, Mr Chairman.

EU Parliament President Hans-Gert Pöttering: No, we have plenty of time. My colleague will continue, because anyone from the members of the EP can ask you whatever he likes. (to Cohn-Bendit) Please continue.

President Vaclav Klaus: This is incredible. I have never experienced anything like this before.

Daniel Cohn-Bendit: Because you have not experienced me…

President Vaclav Klaus: This is incredible.

Daniel Cohn-Bendit: We have always had good talks with President Havel. And what will you tell me about your attitude towards the anti-discrimination law? I will gladly inform you about our funding.

Hans-Gert Pöttering: Brian Crowley, please.

Brian Crowley MEP: I am from Ireland and I am a member of a party in government. All his life my father fought against the British domination. Many of my relatives lost their lives. That is why I dare to say that the Irish wish for the Lisbon Treaty. It was an insult, Mr. President, to me and to the Irish people what you said during your state visit to Ireland. It was an insult that you met Declan Ganley, a man with no elected mandate. This man has not proven the sources from which his campaign was funded. I just want to inform you what the Irish felt. I wish you that you get the programme of your Presidency through and you will get through what European citizens want to see.

President Vaclav Klaus: Thank you for this experience which I gained from this meeting. I did not think anything like this is possible and have not experienced anything like this for the past 19 years. I thought it was a matter of the past that we live in democracy, but it is post-democracy, really, which rules the EU.

You mentioned the European values. The most important value is freedom and democracy. The citizens of the EU member states are concerned about freedom and democracy, above all. But democracy and freedom are loosing ground in the EU today. It is necessary to strive for them and fight for them.

I would like to emphasize, above all, what most citizens of the Czech Republic feel, that for us the EU membership has no alternative. It was me who submitted the EU application in the year 1996 and who signed the Accession treaty in 2003. But the arrangements within the EU have many alternatives. To take one of them as sacrosanct, untouchable, about which it is not possible to doubt or criticize it, is against the very nature of Europe.

As for the Lisbon Treaty, I would like to mention that it is not ratified in Germany either. The Constitutional Treaty, which was basically the same as the Lisbon Treaty, was refused in referendums in other two countries. If Mr. Crowley speaks of an insult to the Irish people, then I must say that the biggest insult to the Irish people is not to accept the result of the Irish referendum. In Ireland I met somebody who represents a majority in his country. You, Mr. Crowley, represent a view which is in minority in Ireland. That is a tangible result of the referendum.

Brian Crowley MEP: With all respect, Mr. President, you will not tell me what the Irish think. As an Irishman, I know it best.

President Vaclav Klaus: I do not speculate about what the Irish think. I state the only measurable data which were proved by the referendum.

In our country the Lisbon Treaty is not ratified because our parliament has not decided on it yet. It is not the President’s fault. Let’s wait for the decision of both Chambers of the Parliament, that is the current phase of the ratification process in which the President plays no role whatsoever. I cannot sign the Treaty today, it is not on my table, it is up to the parliament to decide about it now. My role will come after the eventual approval of the Treaty in the Parliament...

Hans-Gert Pöttering: … In the conclusion – and I want to leave this room in good terms – I would like to say that it is more than unacceptable, if you compare us, compare us with the Soviet Union. We are all deeply rooted in our countries and our constituencies. We are concerned about freedom and reconciliation in Europe, we are good willing, not naive.

President Vaclav Klaus: I did not compare you with the Soviet Union, I did not mention the word “Soviet Union”. I only said that I have not experienced such an atmosphere, such style of debate in the past 19 years in the Czech Republic, really.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3682

[Armenian]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

An interesting article regarding how positively Armenians of Artsakh (Nagorno Karabagh Republic) view Russia. The author of the article, however, inline with CIA front office ArmeniaNow policy, had to make several inaccurate/half true remarks to balance out the overall pro-Russian tone of the article. It was stated that Stepanakert more-or-less rejected Moscow's peace plan and that Armenians in Artsakh distrust Russian troops due to Russian actions against the Armenian population of the region during the early stages of the conflict...

Three points:

1) If Moscow for whatever reason decided that it definitely wants to station combat troops (peacekeepers) in Nagorno Karabagh - what Armenian in his/her right mind would think that Yerevan or Stepanakert can stop them from doing so?

2) If Moscow for whatever reason decided to settle the conflict in question without the participation of Stepanakert - what Armenian in his/her right mind would think that Yerevan or Stepanakert can stop them from doing so?

3) When Moscow moved against the Armenians in Nagorno Karabagh during the early stages of the conflict in Artsakh it was not the Russian Federation doing so it was Communism. Communist Moscow at the time was simply defending the territorial integrity of the Soviet Union.

Armenian

******************************

Foreign Policy: Russia’s influence extending in Karabakh

After the signing last month of the “Moscow Declaration” (by the presidents of Armenia, Azerbaijan and Russia) Russia’s role in Armenia’s and Karabakh’s domestic and foreign policies has become one of most fervently discussed topics here. During the past year the slant towards Russia in the policy of Karabakh authorities became obvious, while Karabakh leaders’ good feelings for Russia are obvious as well. And it’s not accidental that more and more Russia-based Armenian businessmen are attracted to Karabakh’s restoration and development. Right after President Bako Sahakyan’s coming to office in 2007, a new restaurant named ‘Rossia’ opened in Stepanakert next to a Soviet era cinema carrying the same name. Russian-Armenian businessmen, Russian experts participating in “international” conferences, sessions, discussions, became frequent guests in Karabakh. Many explain such interest in Russia by the fact that before his appointment as the Head of NKR National Security Service in 2002, Sahakyan had been working in Moscow and acquired many friends.

One of the most vivid expressions of friendship became Russia-based businessman Samvel Karapetyan’s promise to donate $15 million to the construction of a new building for Karabakh’s Republican hospital. The current hospital was built in 1935 and is no longer fit for its intended purpose. For the past decade Karabakh authorities have been trying to convince sponsors, mostly American, to allot money to the construction of a new hospital, but because it’s very costly, no progress has been made in that respect. After Sahakyan came to presidency, finally land was found to room the hospital building, digging and earthwork started, and the project was on its way. Where all the money previously collected for these purposes went, nobody knows. Instead Karapetyan has now offered to finance the whole project.

Karapetyan declared the $15 million as his donation to “Hayastan” All-Armenian Fund. It was the biggest donation the Fund has ever had during the 11 years of its telethon history. Until then the record holder was Kirk Kerkorian, who promised to double the total amount of money collected during one of telethons and donated some $5 million. There are other examples of Russian philanthropy in NKR. Quite recently the Republican Children’s Hospital was put in commission in Stepanakert. It was reconstructed by financial support of Russia-based entrepreneurs. General Manager of ArmRosgazprom Karen Karapetyan was present at the opening ceremony. Twelve years after passing the Law on Languages (declaring Armenian as the state language in educational institutions), the first state school with Russian bias opened in Stepanakert. Starting September 1, classes at school N3 are held in Russian. Before 1996, 3 out of 10 schools of the capital were with Russian bias. Examples abound, added to the fact that the majority of remittances to Karabakh are from Russia, where many families having left their homeland now live.

It’s in this highlight that Russia activates its efforts in the settlement process of the Karabakh issue. The Moscow Declaration did not receive, though, a unanimous response in Karabakh. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs said in its comment that despite the positive impulses expressed in the item about exceptionally political means of settling the conflict, the absence of Karabakh’s signature reduces the declaration to zero. The hearsay that Russian peacekeepers would be placed in Karabakh wasn’t approved in Karabakh either, as people can still remember how Russian servicemen acted during the “Ring” mission, in the course of which 40 Armenian villages were deported.

Nonetheless, Karabakh authorities treat with awe their relations with Russia. “The fragile peace we have today is Russia’s merit, especially during the first stage that followed the signing of agreements. Naturally, we want- and we are not hiding it- Russia to wield more influence on the settlement of both our and similar conflict,” said President Sahakyan in his interview to Azat Artsakh newspaper. “Because Russia has also historical responsibility for what’s happening in the region. However, that’s a world -scale problem and countries like the USA, France, Great Britain also carry some responsibility for what’s taking place in the South Caucasus. And they are, naturally, pursuing their own interests, which is, to my mind, quite normal.”

Source: http://armenianow.com/?action=viewAr...D=1213&lng=eng

[Hye_Psycho]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

3) When Moscow moved against the Armenians in Nagorno Karabagh during the early stages of the conflict in Artsakh it was not the Russian Federation doing so it was Communism. Communist Moscow at the time was simply defending the territorial integrity of the Soviet Union.

Judging by this quote only, I can only suspect that you consider the various State administrations throughout Russia’s History as somehow alien to its modern re-incarnation. It almost as if your trying to justify the Kremlins actions here.

I respectfully disagree, on certain aspects of this especially the non-connection between the SU and the Russian Federation.

Imperial/Bolshevik/Socialist/Totalitarian/Nationalist Moscow fall in my opinion under the same Category of Elite personal trying to shape Russian Geo-political discourse to their advantage.. Much like how Americans use Globalisation and free-market Economics as their ideological weapons. Ive always thought of these ideological flavours as a means to an end, and not the other way.

The fact that at one time or another the future goals of “soviet” Russia, collided with that of our tiny Nation is not proof of an foreign dogma infiltrating Russian strategists, (and therefore concluding that this foreign dogma of Communism is now absent and we should now trust the Kremlin) rather evidence that one day the very same clash of Future strategy will inevitably occur.

After all, Vladimir Putin himself loved ‘communist’ Russia. In Putin's Annual Address to the Federal Assembly in 2005, he stated:

“Above all, we should acknowledge that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a major geopolitical disaster of the century”

im hard pressed to disagree with him their. Don’t get me wrong, I am an admirer of the Soviet Union, but my point is Russia has screwed Armenia over in the past, and it will do so again in the future. Im both fond and apprehenisve of Russia. None the less i understand our Geo-political options are limmeted.

[Armenian]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

I agree with the fundamentals of what you stated for the most part, Psycho. The only real difference between us regarding this topic is perspective, the angle of view. Periodically individuals stop by this thread and pose similar types of questions and make similar types of comments. I have replied to these at length throughout this thread. I'm in no mood to get into a deep discussion at this time. If interested, be my guest and search for them.

However, let me entertain a few thoughts here.

Judging by this quote only, I can only suspect that you consider the various State administrations throughout Russia’s History as somehow alien to its modern re-incarnation. It almost as if your trying to justify the Kremlins actions here.

Am I "justifying" or 'explaining' why things occur the way they do? You think Moscow would sit back at the time and just watch the union crumble? Wasn't it obvious that Moscow would move against separatists at the time, regardless of who they were? Didn't it then become obvious why the newly born Russian Federation decided to side with us Armenians?

Why is this even a topic of discussion? I'm not sure what is your argument. Are you insinuating that I don't understand geopolitics? Do you think I'm blinded by a certain awe of Russia or Russians? If so, you haven't read any of my previous comments.

I respectfully disagree, on certain aspects of this especially the non-connection between the SU and the Russian Federation.

For every "connection" you can provide between the Russian Federation/Russian Empire and the Soviet Union I can provide you a disconnection.

A small case in point - Under the Soviet system Armenia played a insignificant geopolitical role for Moscow. For the Russian Federation Armenia plays a crucial role in the region's geopolitics.

Imperial/Bolshevik/Socialist/Totalitarian/Nationalist Moscow fall in my opinion under the same Category of Elite personal trying to shape Russian Geo-political discourse to their advantage.. Much like how Americans use Globalisation and free-market Economics as their ideological weapons. Ive always thought of these ideological flavours as a means to an end, and not the other way.

What bearing does this have on the topic of discussion?

The fact that at one time or another the future goals of “soviet” Russia, collided with that of our tiny Nation is not proof of an foreign dogma infiltrating Russian strategists, (and therefore concluding that this foreign dogma of Communism is now absent and we should now trust the Kremlin) rather evidence that one day the very same clash of Future strategy will inevitably occur.

Like I said, I have addressed these types of arguments at length several times in the past. If interested, seek them out in this thread. However, let me put it in as few words as possible:

Due to the current and foreseeable global geopolitical climate Armenia will continue serving the national interests of Russia for the foreseeable future. Thus, as a result of its alliance with Russia, Armenia will continue having political clout in the region. What's more, Armenia's one and only real lifeline - economically, politically and militarily - is the Russian state. Armenia has existed for the past one hundred years or so because of a geopolitical climate only made possible by the presence of a powerful Russia within the greater Caucasus region.

After all, Vladimir Putin himself loved ‘communist’ Russia. In Putin's Annual Address to the Federal Assembly in 2005, he stated: “Above all, we should acknowledge that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a major geopolitical disaster of the century” im hard pressed to disagree with him their.

So? Majority of Armenians that lived under communism would strongly agree with him as well. However, he also said:

"Anyone that does not lament the fall of the Soviet Union is heartless, anyone that would try to resurrect the Soviet Union is brainless."

And if you don't disagree with him, why bring it up?

Don’t get me wrong, I am an admirer of the Soviet Union, but my point is Russia has screwed Armenia over in the past, and it will do so again in the future.

How did the Russian Empire, the Soviet Union or the Russian Federation screw Armenia? By helping us Armenians turn a backward Islamic desert into a modern/advanced republic? Of course there were injustices, but this goes with the very nature of geopolitics. Look on the other side of the argument. A stronger argument can be made that "Armenia" would not even have exist had it not been for the Russian Empire, the Soviet Union and even the current Russian Federation.

Im both fond and apprehenisve of Russia. None the less i understand our Geo-political options are limmeted.

Limited or non-existent? In a certain sense our options are non-existent. This is our reality. This will be the reality for an increasing number of nations in Eurasia as well. Learn to live with it and learn to love Borscht while your at it.

PS: Putting aside my obvious appreciation of Russian history and culture, I emphasize (maybe even obsess over) Russian-Armenian relations primarily because this crucially important relationship for Armenia is under persistent attack within our republic and within our diaspora in the West. I could have ended this debate with you in the beginning by simply asking you to picture the political climate of the Caucasus without a Russian presence... Try it. Just imagine the Caucasus without an effective Russian presence. If that thought does not scare the shit out of you as an Armenian, I don't know what will.

[Armenian]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

To give you an idea of where this article is coming from, a quote:

"...Russia's invasion and occupation of South Ossetia..."

Armenian

********************************

Russia is a key link to oil

If President-elect Barack Obama and his top advisers learn nothing else from Russia's invasion and occupation of South Ossetia this summer, it should be that Moscow aspires to be an energy superpower. Russia already is the world's second-largest producer of oil, pumping nearly 10 million barrels a day, and is the largest supplier of natural gas. Like all energy-exporting countries, Russia benefited enormously from the run-up in prices over the last decade. Every $1 increase in the price of a barrel of oil transferred about $1 billion into Russia's state budget. As a result, Russian foreign exchange reserves grew from $12 billion in 1999 to $470 billion at the end of last year, a balance equaled only by such countries as China, India and the Middle East oil producers.

Revived Russia

When its tanks rolled into Georgia, the Kremlin sent notice it intends to dominate the oil and natural gas resources of the former Soviet republics in the Caspian Sea basin, raising the threat of supply disruptions to Europe. That possibility could give Russia political leverage over Germany, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Ukraine and other Central and East European countries that rely heavily on Russian fuels. As rising oil prices strengthened the Kremlin's hand, Mr. Putin clamped down on Russian businessmen, most notably by prosecuting and imprisoning Yukos Oil Co. Chief Executive Officer Mikhail Khodorkovsky. The new Obama administration needs to realize Russia has a potential stranglehold on America's European allies and will play its energy card when it wants to: to block the further expansion of NATO, for example, or the EU.

What's next?

Russia's next likely move, which could be delayed until the global economy starts picking up again, will be an attempt to orchestrate a global natural gas cartel patterned on the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries. About 15 gas-producing countries, led by Russia and Iran, met in 2004 and agreed to establish an "executive bureau" to coordinate "interests" in the global gas market. As world demand for natural gas begins to outpace supply, incentives for collectively reducing production and increasing prices will strengthen. For the United States, a combination of conservation, increased energy production and improvements in energy efficiency is the best defense against volatile oil and gas prices and Russian blackmail.

The most important step the United States can take on the energy front is to use more coal and nuclear power. America has a 250-year supply of coal, more plentiful on an energy-equivalent basis than the oil reserves of either Saudi Arabia or Russia. The president-elect should re-examine his position on coal in particular. "Clean coal" is not an oxymoron. Building more coal-fired power plants that use new technologies to capture and store carbon dioxide emissions deep underground and converting coal into liquefied fuel for transportation are sensible policies. Increasing our reliance on coal and nuclear power would free up natural gas for household and industrial uses and go a long way toward immunizing the United States from both OPEC and Russian blackmail.

William F. Shughart II is Frederick A.P. Barnard Distinguished Professor of Economics at the University of Mississippi and a senior fellow at the Independent Institute, Oakland, Calif.

Source: http://www.hattiesburgamerican.com/a...ON01/812130324