Armenian-Turkish Relations

[AlphaPapa]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I'm sure once Azerbaijanis stand up against their government, the military will attack Artsakh.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I'm sure once Azerbaijanis stand up against their government, the military will attack Artsakh.

I'm willing to bet on that statement.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Karo, that's interesting, but the Turks are always very open in how they feel about Artsakh. From asbarez.com, here's what turkeys foreign minister said to azeri dictator: "“We consider the occupied Azerbaijani lands our lands and will continue our struggle to release them. We think that these protocols will give an impetus to this process,” Davutoglu said,"

I would say let them continue as long we've got Russia and the Us supporting us they can do what ever they like.

[Catharsis]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I would say let them continue as long we've got Russia and the Us supporting us they can do what ever they like.

Right, we have seen where that "support" leads to via the protocols. No thanks, I will work on self-reliance without even thinking about Russia, much the less, US.

Russia pretty much for a short-term interest has made a colossal mistake which will cost it also. Unless Russia seriously reassess and steps back from letting Turkey inside Caucasus, but it does not seem that way, since they believe they can control the situation, they will find out very soon how terribly wrong they are. But, in this case, it is Armenia, not Russia, that is directly on the chopping block.

[AlphaPapa]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Sadly, I'd bet on it also. I can only hope that the bombs aren't limited to Armenia/Artsakh if the war starts again. I'd like to see many in Baku, Sumgait, Ankara and Istanbul...as well as wherever there is a turkish diaspora (and maybe its just me, but they seem to be spreading like roaches lately in southern california just like they did western and southern europe).]

Right, we have seen where that "support" leads to via the protocols. No thanks, I will work on self-reliance without even thinking about Russia, much the less, US.

Russia pretty much for a short-term interest has made a colossal mistake which will cost it also. Unless Russia seriously reassess and steps back from letting Turkey inside Caucasus, but it does not seem that way, since they believe they can control the situation, they will find out very soon how terribly wrong they are. But, in this case, it is Armenia, not Russia, that is directly on the chopping block.

Exactly.

If Turkey were to withdraw from NATO, the second genocide would have begun already with Russia / US doing as much as they did in Rwanda, Sudan, and elsewhere. We are not Kosovo. If anything, US/NATO support for kosovans was done because of Turkey.

Remember, fellow Armenians, that throughout the late 1980's and all of the 1990's, the US and 'west' supported all militant forms of Islam, including 'secular' Islamic Turkey...especially where they fought Christians. I dare anyone show me otherwise, anywhere on Earth.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Karo, that's interesting, but the Turks are always very open in how they feel about Artsakh. From asbarez.com, here's what turkeys foreign minister said to azeri dictator: "“We consider the occupied Azerbaijani lands our lands and will continue our struggle to release them. We think that these protocols will give an impetus to this process,” Davutoglu said,"

Do you always believe what comes out of the mouths of politicians?

Try to picture what it would mean for a nation with a large energy dependent economy when its main source of energy is cut off... It would mean economic collapse. turkey gets more than half of its energy via Russia. During the Russian-Georgian war Russian energy supplies going to turkey came to a stop, causing widespread panic amongst officials in ankara. By defeating the western/turkish/israeli backed regime in tbilisi, Moscow has effectively driven out foreign meddling from within the Caucasus. Since Moscow now controls all the political levers in the Caucasus, since Moscow is firmly entrenched in Armenia, since Moscow wants to sell energy to turkey and elsewhere, since georgia and the Black Sea region are now considered to be unstable for the foreseeable future - Armenia was more-or-less presented by Moscow to turkey as the only alternative route to bring Central Asian energy to turkey and beyond. This simple yet harsh realization is what forced ankara to sit down at the table with Armenia in the immediate aftermath of the Russian-Georgian war. You may want to believe in your neo-ottoman dreams, however, just realize that Armenia today stands poised to become a regional trade hub as a result of recent geopolitical changes in the region.

[AlphaPapa]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

You completely missed my point. The Turks are very aggressive regarding their words towards Artsakh. Words mean a lot. They raise the bar of expectations, for both Turkey and Azerbaijan. On the other hand, you have a bunch of bagh dolma's like Yerevan who are so soft spoken, and dont even recognize Artsakh (formally) and you have very low expectations from the Armenian people.

If sarkisian were to say "we consider Artsakh our lands" I guarantee you Turkish jets would be flying along the Armenian borders again like 1993.

Russia doesn't give a rats ass about Armenia, only the base it has in Gyumri, and that's only because Turkey is still nato.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

You completely missed my point. The Turks are very aggressive regarding their words towards Artsakh. Words mean a lot. They raise the bar of expectations, for both Turkey and Azerbaijan. On the other hand, you have a bunch of bagh dolma's like Yerevan who are so soft spoken, and dont even recognize Artsakh (formally) and you have very low expectations from the Armenian people.

If sarkisian were to say "we consider Artsakh our lands" I guarantee you Turkish jets would be flying along the Armenian borders again like 1993.

Russia doesn't give a rats ass about Armenia, only the base it has in Gyumri, and that's only because Turkey is still nato.

I think official Yerevan should be more vocal, but I strongly disagree that words mean a lot. Talk is cheap, always has been and always will be. Most of the comments made about Artsakh by azeri/turkish politicians is for internal consumption, especially in azerbaijan, they need to keep the population thinking about the 'enemy' rather than the sorry state their country is in even though it has billions coming in from oil and natural gas.

Serj and other Armenian politicians have said Artsakh is Armenian land before, so don't be too shocked; both he and Robert are from Artsakh, so I doubt they don't care.

As far as Russia is concerned, they have very strong interests in Armenia, that is to our benefit. A lot has already been said on this topic but if you can't grasp the material or choose to ignore it then there isn't much else I can say to you concerning this topic.

I do have faith in our people, unlike you who sees everything through a pessimists eyes.

[Eddo211]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

....

- Armenia was more-or-less presented by Moscow to turkey as the only alternative route to bring Central Asian energy to turkey and beyond. This simple yet harsh realization is what forced ankara to sit down at the table with Armenia in the immediate aftermath of the Russian-Georgian war. You may want to believe in your neo-ottoman dreams, however, just realize that Armenia today stands poised to become a regional trade hub as a result of recent geopolitical changes in the region.

This can happen without the protocols which are nothing but demands (someone correct me if I am wrong) put forward by Turkey to go along with this US/EU/Russia deal. It is already a fact in Ankara and in the minds of Turks that without giving land back to Azeris this deal will not go through as it stand...........and both borders must be open for this deal to close.

[ara87]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Turkey's talks with Armenia test ties with gas-supplier Azerbaijan

In Azerbaijan, Turkish flags have been taken down and the Azeri president said his country might stop selling Ankara discounted natural gas. At issue is Turkey's move to renew relations with Armenia, which has a territorial dispute with Azerbaijan.

By Yigal Schliefer | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor

from the October 23, 2009 edition


Istanbul, Turkey - Bound together by language and culture – and, more recently, by oil and gas pipelines – officials in Turkey and Azerbaijan frequently refer to the two countries as "one nation, two states."

But this slogan is being put to the test these days, following Turkey and Armenia's recent signing of protocols to restore diplomatic relations and open up their borders. That's something Azerbaijan is strongly opposed to, in the wake of the deal with Armenia that doesn't address a territorial dispute between Azberbaijan and Armenia.

The new tension between Ankara and Baku is raising concern that the Azeris – who sit on top of large reserves of oil and gas – might scuttle energy deals that involve Turkey, especially the Nabucco pipeline project, designed to ease Europe's dependence on Russian natural gas.

As Turkey tries to deal with one of its historic problems in order to improve relations with a neighbor, it appears other historic problems are creating new tension with another neighbor, with possible consequences for European energy security.

"If those countries which are genuinely interested in the Nabucco project influence Armenia so that it steps back from the occupied territories and both Azerbaijan and Turkey will be satisfied, then this will be remembered as only an episode in Turkey-Azerbaijan relations," says Ilgar Mammadov, a political analyst based in Baku.

"If not, then the relationship between Turkey and Azerbaijan will worsen, and projects like Nabucco will be undermined."

The protocols make no mention of Nagorno-Karabakh, a mountainous Azeri territory occupied by Armenian forces since 1994. Turkey first closed its border to Armenia in response to its occupation of the territory and Azeri officials have said Ankara's relations with Yerevan should not be restored until the frozen Nagorno-Karabakh issue is settled.

Baku feels betrayed

The reaction in Baku to the deal signed by Turkey and Armenia – which must still be ratified by the two countries' parliaments to take effect – has been particularly strong. Turkish flags have been taken down in the city and Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev, speaking at a nationally televised cabinet meeting on Oct. 16, suggested his country might stop selling Turkey natural gas at a discounted price.

"Azerbaijan is looking at the opening of the Turkey-Armenia border as a betrayal. We are looking at Turkey as our main partner in the region and [at] Armenia as our main enemy. The reaction is natural," says Vafa Guluzade, former foreign affairs advisor to the previous Azeri president, Haydar Aliyev.

Turkish officials have been making efforts to appease Baku, making it clear that they will not move forward on renewing ties with Armenia until the Nagorno-Karabakh issue is resolved.

"Nothing can change the fact that Turkey will always stand by Azerbaijan and Turkey's position on Azerbaijan's territorial integrity and its territories under occupation," Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said during a Thursday visit to the Azeri capital.

But Guluzade, the former Azeri foreign affairs adviser, says Baku is looking for stronger reassurances.

"We need something more real in our hands. Armenia has signed protocols under the auspices of the United States, Russia, and France. We only have words. That's not enough," he says.

However, Huseyin Bagci, a professor of international relations at Ankara's Middle East Technical University, says that in the long run, the opening of the Turkey-Armenia border will actually facilitate the resolution of the Nagorno-Karabakh issue.

"Azerbaijan has to realize that discussion of the Nagorno-Karabakh issue can only happen if the Turkey-Armenia border opens," he says.

In the meantime, without a resolution to the conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia, Ankara and Baku may find the "one nation-two states" slogan being further tested, Bagci says.

"It's a nationalist slogan, it's nice to hear, but it's never been the case," he says. "We have never been one nation."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1023/p06s04-woeu.html