Armenian-Turkish Relations

[Eddo211]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I really don't see the nexus between the protocol and "wiping Armenian off the map". If your interested in diminishing external threats then you shoudn't hesitate to sign the protocol as it specifically confirms Armenia's existing boundaries thereby reinforcing your statehood. It will also help re-integrate Armenia's into the world economy and strengthen its institutions and government by formalising relations. Business, investment, people need as much certainty and reliability as possible. The current relationship is negative and uncertain and impoverishes all countries in the region. The Swiss written protocols appear to offer as much as win/win positions to both Armenia and Turkey as possible. You can wrap yourself in pride, historical injustice, emnity as much as you like but you shouldn't blame Armenian leaders for making unemotional and rational decisions that will benefit their long term interests.

Armenian stathood is as solid as it comes.....no need to sign anything to confirm it, unless you feel inferior for some reason.

[Anoush]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Armenian stathood is as solid as it comes.....no need to sign anything to confirm it, unless you feel inferior for some reason.

Good post Eddo jan.

[Gavur]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Amazing, they let him say Genocide!





As symmetry breaks in the Caucasus




Saturday, 12 September 2009

By Etyen MAHCUPYAN

Turkey's decision to establish diplomatic relations and open borders with Armenia is no surprise. One of the reasons that makes this possible is that the international environment has given precedence to a more democratic outlook.

It was observed that especially after Barack Obama was elected US president, the digression from the Cold War perception gained major momentum in the Middle East. Although globalization did give many clues and incentives to this end, the Middle East's suspicious view toward the West was not eliminated. Even today, there is still no consensus about whether the West's intentions are sincere. However, the combination of diplomacy's transition from sanctions to dialogue and the reality implicated by the new energy policy has created a new understanding.
This potential new world especially appeals to Turkey's new and ambitious bourgeoisie. While they envision Turkey as one of the actors of the globalized world, freeing it from the diplomacy chains of the past has turned into a strong demand. Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu's personal career is an epitome of this change. He was an academic who prepared theoretical works and went beyond the founding of the republic to establish the roots of a broad perspective concerning the future. The integration of the past and future in a way that exceeds the period of the republic complies with the vision of the newly emerging Muslim bourgeoisie. This social movement created the Justice and Development Party (AK Party) and turned an academic theoretician into the bearer and implementer of this vision.

For Turkey to become an “actor” in the future new world, it will first have to develop problem-free relations with its neighbors. Thus, opening the border with Armenia became the main issue on Turkey's secret agenda in recent years. Turkey's own sociological change had the effect of bringing to an end the international rigidity in the region. But prior to that, the Armenia-Turkey-Azerbaijan triangle was entangled in a symmetry that connoted immobility. The balance which consisted of the three countries' reciprocal sanctions and threats signified a risk-free status quo that each country was becoming increasingly used to.

Intertwined subjects were made into such a tangle and described in such an exaggerated way by nationalist discourse that the countries were stripped of any intention to exert effort to change the situation. It seemed a solution was only possible in the far future when cards would be re-dealt and relative powers would be re-determined.

But this status quo state far from satisfied the dreams of Turkey's new bourgeoisie. Although Armenia watched this development with amazement, it did not hesitate to put faith in it. Perhaps the reason for this is that the “Muslim” identity is still met with a positive perception in Armenia while all the negativity has been attached to “Turkishness.”

Considering that Armenians attribute the deaths of their ancestors to nationalist and statist Turkey and feel indebted to Muslim neighbors for their survival, it is only natural that they felt a secret sense of relief to the sociological change in Turkey. What is more interesting, however, is that Azerbaijan was not able to foresee in any way this change in Turkey and was isolated to the extent that that it failed to understand the change. Apparently, they had too much confidence that the state in Turkey had the power to develop an identity and that politics would be conducted in line with this identity. They were not able to fully grasp what the rise of a new middle class that was sensitive to Islamic values meant and what kind of a Caucasus it implied.

With the initial two protocols -- "on the establishment of diplomatic relations" and "on the development of bilateral relations," released on Aug. 31 -- we are going to witness the symmetry around the frozen status quo break. The biggest gain from this process will be that all three countries will make progress toward democracy and integrate with the global system with real ties. At the same time, each country will be under more pressure to abandon the classic nation-state and Cold War diplomacy and learn how to “listen” to one another. The same period will also denote intense counterpropaganda by nationalists in all three countries; however, it is unlikely that their opposition will have much effect. If the process is managed properly, it will normalize both the past and present of these lands. An important potential has been created that can especially end the moral disconnection and hidden hostility between Armenians and Turks. Old politics was shaped by fears. Armenia was afraid of losing Nagorno-Karabakh and the possibility that this could lead to a new genocide. Turkey was afraid of being confined to the shadows of a genocide that happened in the past and failing in the future just because of this.

Turkey's courage to request a better future is actually courage to embrace its past. Armenia's courage to allow Karabakh to be normalized within the frame of international norms is an extension of its desire to protect its future. We are going to witness the reuniting of two people that lived together for centuries without limits and boundaries and the reuniting of two cultures that developed and grew together. No one should be surprised if this results in a huge cultural explosion that no “history commission” will be able to restrain. There is a Turkish saying that says, “The land calls.” Anatolia will call its people back to itself. The people have been waiting for this for a very long time.


Saturday, 12 September 2009

By Etyen MAHCUPYAN

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/88646/as-symmetry-breaks-in-the-caucasus.html

[gegev]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Koran says: “if you can’t cut enemy’s hand; kiss it ”,

After reading the Armenian-Turkish protocol text, I wander, if there are any Muslims in Armenian FM?

[Mukuch]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Whether Armenia is at fault or not is irrelevant. It remains the Armenian leadership discretion as to whether they reject the protocals, treat it's neighbours as hostile states, blocks relations with Turkey indefinitely, makes no concessions on Karabagh.

Armenia never treated its friendly neighbors as hostile states. Just some of the neighbours ARE HOSTILE STATES. Armenia never blocked its relationships with any one, the others block them with Armenia by their hypocrite foreign policy. What karabakh got to do with it?

Armenia should weigh up the price of taking a course of action and act according to their own national self interest.

Sins when turks say what Armenia must do?

Likewise Turkey will give priority to their own self interest.

Sure it always does... in short terms...

That national interest dictates that a political protocol be entered into prior to establishing formal relations because of the historical context.

Come again?????

But I fail to see how a pro tocol that secures borders, address security, terrorism, environmental, energy, trade, transport concerns will be to the detriment of Armenia. Will Armenia have a better future if the agreement is rejected?

Your failure to understand is false or you are not familiar with Turkish diplomacy. The first is more probable.

What borders? Who’s security? What you call terrorism? What environmental concerns?
And the historical sub commission kind of slipped your mind....

This protocol has just one purpose: misguide international community and brake the back of Armenian Diaspora....

If the future of Armenia will not be better at least there will be some future...

[Anoush]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Koran says: “if you can’t cut enemy’s hand; kiss it ”,

After reading the Armenian-Turkish protocol text, I wander, if there are any Muslims in Armenian FM?

I don't give a dam what Koran says. I say heed and adhere to the Armenian Revolutionary Federation and Jarankoutyoun Gousagtsoutyoun/Party and stop the darn and dangerous negotiations with turkey, unless we put our preconditions on the negotiating table. I don't trust turkey whatsoever and Sarkissian or Nalbandyan mustn't sign these frightening protocols. Yes very frightening for our Republic and very frightening for Artsakh. If Artsakh goes so will Armenia (the Republic of Armenia). They shall both diminish only within time. We must not sign anything before putting clearly our own preconditions on the protocols.

[Army]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

We must not sign anything before putting clearly our own preconditions on the protocols.

Are you from Diaspora??

Sign nothing. Fine, then let all Armenians get stuck in the region. Realise that, Turks do not need to open Armenian borders; if Yerevan keeps claiming 'hard' preconditions; Turks would just leave the table.

Turks try to solve their problems with Armenia not because they really need Armenia. It is just they got tired of messing with this bad relationship, it sucks Ankara's diplomatic energy. And more importantly; it is USA and EU 'forcing' both sides. Armenian government knows this very well and they also know that ARMENIA CAN NOT LIVE AS AN ISOLATED STATE forever.

Thats why Yerevan signs that paper.

Do you know any Turkish? I do, and what I see on Turkish media: NOBODY GIVES A F*CK TO ARMENIAN RELATIONSHIPS.. It is not on news anymore, and only a few articles are being written about the issue.

Here is your mistake: Turks usually think that Armenians always think about the genocide; and Armenians think that Turks always think about Armenia and the border and the relationships.

The fact is: 90% of the population does not care at all.

[jgk3]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

The fact is: 90% of the population does not care at all.

That's not what we're worried about. We're worried about the heads of state manuevering behind the scenes while these 90% of the population on either side don't care. If the 90% is implicitly, non-intentionally serving an agenda of politicians who we feel threatened by, then that 90% is still an adversary.

[Army]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

That's not what we're worried about. We're worried about the heads of state manuevering behind the scenes while these 90% of the population on either side don't care. If the 90% is implicitly, non-intentionally serving an agenda of politicians who we feel threatened by, then that 90% is still an adversary.

So, "Apologise, then pay us, and give us your land" is not a good way to convince that 90% of Turkish population since they did nothing to an Armenian and probably most of them never met with an Armenian.

[gegev]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Are you from Diaspora??

Sign nothing. Fine, then let all Armenians get stuck in the region. Realise that, Turks do not need to open Armenian borders; if Yerevan keeps claiming 'hard' preconditions; Turks would just leave the table.

bla bla .....

Are your glorious Army solders as brave as your president is. And please don’t tell me that Saakashvili is not your president. Check it with your beloved Turks. That converted you into Muslim several times throughout history as the big number of Muslims in Georgia proves it.
By the way when you last time got converted.

Don’t support Christian Armenians it is not profitable for you now, but loving Turks is, for a while, that's your politics.

You are ggggggggggggreat Politicians!