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Armenian-Turkish Relations

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  • #11
    Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

    A prosperous Armenia is not within the long term interest of the Turkish nation - simply because we Armenians want lands and reparations. No self-respecting Turk is going to give away strategic lands to us Armenians. Trust me on that. Moreover, the Turks will not give us reparations because it would ruin their already small bank accounts. Moreover, giving us lands or reparations is a Pandora's box for them. Once they do it for us, it will be Assyrians, Kurds and Greeks, Cypriots lining up.

    However, the biggest fear Armenian nationalists have is the massive economic and demographic size of Turkey. Theoretically, if the Republic of Armenia engages in open trade, and all is civil between us and the Turks, there is a great danger that the Republic of Armenia, as small and as isolated as it is, will become desperately dependent on Turkey for survival. This is the biggest long term fear that Armenia has with regards to open trade with Turkey.

    I personally feel that we can not have official relations with Turkey as long as we have national demands. And, as far as I am concerned, the Armenian diaspora has demands and, as a matter of fact, the Armenian Republic has demands as well, although for diplomatic reasons they will not discuss it. Moreover, I really don't see any substantial benefit in having open borders with Turkey. Turkey produces cheap goods, nothing else. Armenia needs to concentrate on better relations with Iran, Russia and the EU. At least there we know that our existence is actually within their national interests.

    The Turkish border is the longest, therefore, simplest, cheapest and quickest route for transporting goods. The Georgian border is short, risky, unstable and under-developed. The Iranian border is tiny and Iran has serious long-term geo-political problems. Under these circumstances, the worst thing that can happen to Armenia is to have open borders and normal relations with Turks. Economically Turks can overwhelm us within a very short period of time. And once your main source of income is placed within the hands of the enemy - kiss your vor, and your national interests, goodbye. I am surprised more Armenians have not been able to see the long term risks in all this. However, I suspect that many serious political organization within Armenia and the Diaspora, especially the ARF, do see the long term risks with having open borders with Turkey.

    It is very troubling that we Armenians have simply forgotten that Turkey was ready to invade Armenia in 1993. This was in '1993' not in 1905 or 1918 or 1921. This was in modern times. You know, the modern 'civilized' Turk. Rest assured, power-brokers in Turkey hate us and they fear us they would love for us to simply disappear. If is was not for the South Caucasus command of the Russian Army, Yerevan today would have been an occupied Armenian city as well.

    In short: Armenia today serves the geo-political interest of Iran and Russia and to a lesser extent the European Union. However, Armenia does not serve the long term interest of Turkey and obviously, Azerbaijan. And that is why we can't have any real close relations with Turks. Simply put, a prosperous Armenia is not in their long term interest. As far as Americans are concerned, they are there today, and gone tomorrow - when their 'interests' disappear. When it comes to Armenan issues, we obviously can't trust Washington DC.

    We Armenians need to concentrate on building closer economic and political relations with Russians, Iranians, the EU and the Arab world. Let's hope the winds of war in Iran passes soon. Let's hope Georgia gets run-over by Russia. Let's hope the Turkish border remains closed. Armenian will do well looking north and south. As a matter of fact, much to the disappointment of Ankara and Washington DC, the Armenian economy has been doing relatively well despite the Turkic blockade.
    Last edited by Armenian; 11-07-2006, 09:48 PM.
    Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:

    Նժդեհ


    Please visit me at my Heralding the Rise of Russia blog: http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/

    Comment


    • #12
      Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

      IT’S NECESSARY TO PAY ATTENTION TO CLAUSES OF SEVRES TREATY

      An arrangement dedicated to 150th anniversary of great friend of Armenia, 28th US president Woodrow Wilson took place the American University of Armenia yesterday. A few episodes from the Armenian history connected with the Armenian Cause were presented.

      Deans of the departments of law and political science as well as historian Armen Ayvazian made speeches. Tom Samuelian, dean of the law department, presented the life and deeds of Woodrow Wilson, and Armen Ayvazian dwelt on a number of clauses of the Treaty of Sevres. The speaker pointed out to 4 basic tasks within the Armenian cause: issues of Artsakh and Javakhk, international recognition of the Armenian Genocide and Armenian-Turkish relations. In his words, the Sevres Treaty gave the most correct formula of settling the Armenian Cause, and "if the territorial nature of the Armenian Cause is rejected then this issue will not be settled."

      The political scientist was sure that the Sevres Treaty provides a wonderful legal and political foundation for approaching the settlement of the Armenian Cause, and our officials have to revive the approaches of the Sevres Treaty while signing new agreements. Asked whether the Sevres Treaty is perfect, Armen Ayvazian said that neither the Sevres nor Kars, nor Moscow treaties are perfect simply the approaches of the former one are acceptable.

      By Tamar Minasian

      Source: http://www.azg.am/?lang=EN&num=2006110405
      Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:

      Նժդեհ


      Please visit me at my Heralding the Rise of Russia blog: http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/

      Comment


      • #13
        Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

        Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:

        Նժդեհ


        Please visit me at my Heralding the Rise of Russia blog: http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/

        Comment


        • #14
          Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

          A typical dialouge a typicalArmenian will have with a typical Turk:



          A Turk is going to start by asking: What is the problem with your people regarding us Turks?

          An Armenian is going to say: Turks persecuted their loyal Armenian subjects to the point of extinction within Anatolia.

          The Turk is going to reply: No way, your people had a great life living under the progressive Ottoman Turks.

          The Armenian is going to respond: There was a systematic genocide of the Armenian population within Anatolia and Cilicia by the Turkish authorities during the First World War.

          The Turk is going to reply: There was a major war at the time and many people died on both sides. Turks suffered just as much as Armenians. So please, let's all move ahead in our lives. Besides which, that was so long ago...

          The Armenian is going to respond: No. No. No. You are not being fair nor honest, a lot more Armenians died. What happened to Armenians back then was absolutely horrible, my grandparents still talk about it to this day.

          The Turk is going to reply: Well, if Turks overreacted at the time, it's only because you Armenians were helping the Russians and stabbing us, benevolent Turks, in the back.

          The Armenian is going to respond: Not all Armenians were helping the Russians, only a few nationalist revolutionaries who were seeking independence. Why did Turks kill or deport the entire Armenian population of Anatolia and Cilicia?

          The Turk is going to reply: Well, you know what, I was not there. I don’t know what exactly happened. In any case, please allow me to say - I am very sorry all that stuff happened to your people. I am really-really sorry, but we Turks are different now, times are different now, let's move ahead in our lives, it will benefit us all.

          The Armenian is going to respond: Yes, let's move ahead, but, it is essential that your government officially apologizes and begins to implement friendly policies toward the Armenian nation. Also, why is your government openly helping the Azeris against us? That problem in Nagorno Karabagh should have nothing to do with Armenia's relations with Turkey.

          The Turk is going to reply: As far as the Nagorno Karabagh issue is concerned, we support the territorial integrity of all nations, including that of our cousins, the Azeris. Clearly, you Armenians are the aggressors there. However, I do not want to talk about that problem right now. Let's get back to 'our' issue. Turks will not officially apologize because they are afraid of land and money compensations. You have to understand that Turkey is not a rich nation and we are not about to butcher up our lands.

          At this point, there are some Armenian low-lives who would reply: Very well, but please, even if it's some kind of a token recognition and compensation, it needs to be made in order to appease the masses who are still suffering from a post-traumatic conditions brought upon by the genocide.

          And at this point, the Turk will get encouraged by the Armenian response and say: My government has similar problem with the Kurds and the Greek, thus, no such compensation can be acceptable for us Turks. Please people, accept our sincere apologies and lets move a head in life, we don't have another choice.

          The same Armenian low-lives will respond: Well, ok, as long as we can be "good neighbors" and have no more problems, we will accept your apology and we'll live happily ever after.

          And at this point, Armenian nationalists will tell Turks: Go to hell, you and your Azeri cousins, we will not rest until your nation is destroyed. After what happened between our nations, Turks and Armenians can never again live side-by-side. What's more, as long as the Turkish government holds our sacred lands, as long as the Turkish government supports our enemies, as long as the blood of our ancestors are not avenged somehow - there cannot even be any discussions regarding 'coexistence' between Turks and Armenians.

          The point is, discussions about the Armenian Genocide with Turks are senseless exercises in futility. Such debates, more often than not, degenerate to the point that it only serves to undermine the national ideology and cohesiveness of us Armenians. Nevertheless, the fundamental answer of all self-respecting Armenians to every single Turkic inquiry regarding Turko-Armenian relations is a simple one: There was a historic crime perpetrated by Turks against the Armenian people that yet needs to be punished.

          All crimes, regardless of severity, needs to get punished accordingly. That is how the universal order works, that is how rational works, that is how human behavior works. Through my experiences, I have noticed that there are two fundamental types of Turks regarding their ideological approach to the Armenian Genocide. The first type (most probably the majority): Is very satisfied with what happened to the Armenians during the First World War and, moreover, would not hesitate one bit at attempting it again (as we have seen on countless occasions during the past fifteen years). The other type (who is essentially subservient to the first type): Just wants to "whitewash" and make "excuses" for what happened back then and wants us to move "forward."

          I far as I am concerned, its simple folks: We move forward by punishing, sooner or later, the guilty nation that committed the barbaric crime - and this cannot happen by trying to "reconcile" with those who still wish us dead. Speak to me about "reconciliation" with Turks when the Turkish state is reduced to rubble - then and only then will I even consider reconciliation with a Turk.

          As I keep repeating: "well meaning" Turks need to preach to their primitive brethren - NOT US. I, personally, do not want engage in futile practices such as "explaining" and "convincing" anything to any moron that does not know the obvious. The bottom line is: just a few decades ago there was a large Armenian population living within its native lands and, today - there are none. Its that simple. Therefore, I do not want to engage in verbal gymnastics by discussing "why did it happen," "how did it happen," "what was the exact number of dead," "who was responsible," "how do we move forward..."
          Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:

          Նժդեհ


          Please visit me at my Heralding the Rise of Russia blog: http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/

          Comment


          • #15
            Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

            A typical dialouge a typicalArmenian will have with a typical Turk:
            wouldn't be so. If I allow it, I would gladly change it with proper one.

            Comment


            • #16
              Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

              Originally posted by Armenian
              it is obvious that Turkey will never want a prosperous Armenia on her border.
              it is imposible..

              but this is possible

              much more stronger azerbaijani turks appearing to get back our turk land from you, for establishing the holy justice. the one way is to nod your heads in front of us like before again

              protect yourself armenıa the little,

              Comment


              • #17
                Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

                Hrant Dink, 53



                Astvadz hokin lusavor e...


                Husam ays tepki hedevankov mer Bolsahaier@ yev michaskayin bedutyunner@ verchabes gartennan.


                I, at times, spoke against this man for getting involved in the complex politics of Armenian-Turkish affairs. Nonetheless, I feel deep sorrow over his death. He did not deserve to die in such a manner. His mistake was attempting to engage Turks in a 'civilized' debate. I hope the world sees what we have been dealing with for a thousand years.

                I hope this becomes a wake up call to all Bolsahais.

                We Armenians must learn that we can not engage Turks in any kind debate, within any level. Only through armed struggle will we be able to correct the wrongs of our history.


                Miyayn zenkov ga Hayots prgutyun!!!

                Comment


                • #18
                  Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

                  Just curious, has any Armenian here had an experience with Turks that the following essay has not covered? If so, I'm interested to find out the progression of the conversation.

                  Originally posted by Armenian View Post
                  A typical dialog a typical Armenian will have with a typical Turk:


                  A Turk is going to start by asking: What is the problem with your people regarding us Turks?

                  An Armenian is going to say: Turks persecuted their loyal Armenian subjects to the point of extinction within Anatolia.

                  The Turk is going to reply: No way, your people had a great life living under the progressive Ottoman Turks.

                  The Armenian is going to respond: There was a systematic genocide of the Armenian population within Anatolia and Cilicia by the Turkish authorities during the First World War.

                  The Turk is going to reply: There was a major war at the time and many people died on both sides. Turks suffered just as much as Armenians. So please, let's all move ahead in our lives. Besides which, that was so long ago...

                  The Armenian is going to respond: No. No. No. You are not being fair nor honest, a lot more Armenians died. What happened to Armenians back then was absolutely horrible, my grandparents still talk about it to this day.

                  The Turk is going to reply: Well, if Turks overreacted at the time, it's only because you Armenians were helping the Russians and stabbing us, benevolent Turks, in the back.

                  The Armenian is going to respond: Not all Armenians were helping the Russians, only a few nationalist revolutionaries who were seeking independence. Why did Turks kill or deport the entire Armenian population of Anatolia and Cilicia?

                  The Turk is going to reply: Well, you know what, I was not there. I don’t know what exactly happened. In any case, please allow me to say - I am very sorry all that stuff happened to your people. I am really-really sorry, but we Turks are different now, times are different now, let's move ahead in our lives, it will benefit us all.

                  The Armenian is going to respond: Yes, let's move ahead, but, it is essential that your government officially apologizes and begins to implement friendly policies toward the Armenian nation. Also, why is your government openly helping the Azeris against us? That problem in Nagorno Karabagh should have nothing to do with Armenia's relations with Turkey.

                  The Turk is going to reply: As far as the Nagorno Karabagh issue is concerned, we support the territorial integrity of all nations, including that of our cousins, the Azeris. Clearly, you Armenians are the aggressors there. However, I do not want to talk about that problem right now. Let's get back to 'our' issue. Turks will not officially apologize because they are afraid of land and money compensations. You have to understand that Turkey is not a rich nation and we are not about to butcher up our lands.

                  At this point, there are some Armenian low-lives who would reply: Very well, but please, even if it's some kind of a token recognition and compensation, it needs to be made in order to appease the masses who are still suffering from a post-traumatic conditions brought upon by the genocide.

                  And at this point, the Turk will get encouraged by the Armenian response and say: My government has similar problem with the Kurds and the Greek, thus, no such compensation can be acceptable for us Turks. Please people, accept our sincere apologies and lets move a head in life, we don't have another choice.

                  The same Armenian low-lives will respond: Well, ok, as long as we can be "good neighbors" and have no more problems, we will accept your apology and we'll live happily ever after.

                  And at this point, Armenian nationalists will tell Turks: Go to hell, you and your Azeri cousins, we will not rest until your nation is destroyed. After what happened between our nations, Turks and Armenians can never again live side-by-side. What's more, as long as the Turkish government holds our sacred lands, as long as the Turkish government supports our enemies, as long as the blood of our ancestors are not avenged somehow - there cannot even be any discussions regarding 'coexistence' between Turks and Armenians.

                  The point is, discussions about the Armenian Genocide with Turks are senseless exercises in futility. Such debates, more often than not, degenerate to the point that it only serves to undermine the national ideology and cohesiveness of us Armenians. Nevertheless, the fundamental answer of all self-respecting Armenians to every single Turkic inquiry regarding Turko-Armenian relations is a simple one: There was a historic crime perpetrated by Turks against the Armenian people that yet needs to be punished.

                  All crimes, regardless of severity, needs to get punished accordingly. That is how the universal order works, that is how rational works, that is how human behavior works. Through my experiences, I have noticed that there are two fundamental types of Turks regarding their ideological approach to the Armenian Genocide. The first type (most probably the majority): Is very satisfied with what happened to the Armenians during the First World War and, moreover, would not hesitate one bit at attempting it again (as we have seen on countless occasions during the past fifteen years). The other type (who is essentially subservient to the first type): Just wants to "whitewash" and make "excuses" for what happened back then and wants us to move "forward."

                  I far as I am concerned, its simple folks: We move forward by punishing, sooner or later, the guilty nation that committed the barbaric crime - and this cannot happen by trying to "reconcile" with those who still wish us dead. Speak to me about "reconciliation" with Turks when the Turkish state is reduced to rubble - then and only then will I even consider reconciliation with a Turk.

                  As I keep repeating: "well meaning" Turks need to preach to their primitive brethren - NOT US. I, personally, do not want engage in futile practices such as "explaining" and "convincing" anything to any moron that does not know the obvious. The bottom line is: just a few decades ago there was a large Armenian population living within its native lands and, today - there are none. Its that simple. Therefore, I do not want to engage in verbal gymnastics by discussing "why did it happen," "how did it happen," "what was the exact number of dead," "who was responsible," "how do we move forward..."
                  Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:

                  Նժդեհ


                  Please visit me at my Heralding the Rise of Russia blog: http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/

                  Comment


                  • #19
                    Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

                    Originally posted by Armenian View Post
                    Just curious, has any Armenian here had an experience with Turks that the following essay has not covered? If so, I'm interested to find out the progression of the conversation.
                    Actually, it is absolutely pointless to have ANY discussions with them; it's not only about the Genocide... The degree of the retardation of these people is just breathtaking.

                    By the way, some Polsahay low-lives such as Mutafoglu do not fit, even in your Armenian low-lives category…

                    Comment


                    • #20
                      Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

                      are you another Armenian American who wants Armenia to be good with Turkey just because America is good with them. Turkey should never be friends with us, who would be friends with a nation that killed 1.5 million of your own people. Turkey is just backstabbing retarted nation, F**k the countries who are friends and allies with them just disgusting
                      Մեկ Ազգ, Մեկ Մշակույթ
                      ---
                      "Western Assimilation is the greatest threat to the Armenian nation since the Armenian Genocide."

                      Comment

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