Armenian-Turkish Relations

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Armenia does not reply. Silence is our motto.

[jgk3]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Armenia does not reply. Silence is our motto.

I am happy about this. Officially they don't get riled up but keep a firm stance when push comes to shove. They let all the patriotic Armenians around the world wage the war without any official support, and we win anyway. Nevertheless, we must always be vigilant as Armenian citizens and politicians in order to make this formula work.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Armenia does not reply. Silence is our motto.

They just stay in the background and let big brother Russia do the talking.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Haykakan, I think we're beginning to go in circles. Please realize that no one is saying Armenia should go against Russia (its impossible to exaggerate the consequences of doing such a thing), and no one is saying that the normalization of ties with Turkey should be abandoned entirely. I am only saying that there is no point in rushing the process when the preconditions clearly do not favor our side. Again, the preconditions are not exactly in Russia's interests-- Moscow doesn't care one way or the other if a historical commission is established-- but WE care. Therefore, we should stall (not abandon) the process until these things are slanted in our favor. Again, Moscow is not going to abandon its only Caucasian ally for such a small infraction. Georgia got destroyed because they openly declared war on Russia-- I propose that we do the opposite, to work WITH Russia to have these dangerous preconditions removed.

You're acting like we only have 2 options: Immediately accept the protocol, or reject it altogether. There is a middle path, namely one where we accept normalization when the process is healthy for us (in other words, no historical commission and no recognition of the borders). Why do you assume from the get-go that Turkey is going to get what they want in the end, and that we cannot negotiate our way out of it? I'm sorry to say, but this is a defeatist attitude, and its no wonder our leaders cannot avoid these absurd preconditions by sharing a similar defeatist attitude. These preconditions have nothing to do with Russia's interests-- they are the interests of Turkey and Azerbaijan. You're telling me Russia cannot pressure Turkey into removing these ridiculous preconditions?

You keep saying that Karabagh is ours no matter what--- but you're saying we should sign away rights (no matter how obsolete they seem to you) in order to secure Karabagh. This makes no sense. Why sign away ANYTHING (no matter how pointless it seems to you) when we have NOTHING to gain from it in real terms? The border issue is the most important issue for Turkey, yet some of us are willing to sign it away for nothing! This has nothing to do with emotions as you claim it does, its a matter of bad negotiating. Its this type of negotiating that shows our weakness to the Turkish diplomats--- And if you know about Turkish history, you know they are EXPERTS at focusing on a weakness and exploiting it. If you negotiate with anyone (let alone a nation with 600+ years of imperial diplomatic experience), and you backtrack and make blunders like this, they will be relentless in demanding other things. So no wonder we find ourselves in the present quandry where Turkey is demanding multiple preconditions, when our position was "no preconditions". We backtracked from our position at the very beginning of negotiations, so the Turks went on the offensive. Everyone here witnessed it. Your argument would probably be "its what Russia wanted". Really? Why didn't Russia tell Kocharian to abandon his stance of "no preconditions", and allow him to continue it for 10 years? Why does Kocharian not favor the current protocols? Why is Oskanian against them? Are you saying they don't know about "Russia's interests" when they served the highest positions in the Armenian government for over a decade? It seems that its not so much a matter of Russia's interests, its a matter of being weak on the negotiation table by changing our stance at every turn and not having a clear vision.

Erdogan: border with Armenia will be closed till Karabakh conflict resolution
18.09.2009 12:19 GMT+04:00 Print version Send to mail

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Turkey’s Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has stated that his country’s position has not changed and that the border with Armenia will be kept closed unless the Nagorno Karabakh conflict is resolved.

“Azerbaijani and Armenian Presidents intensified talks between with mediation of their Russian counterpart Dmitry Medvedev,” he said.

“If we do not see Armenia taking action, the border will not be opened,” Milliyet quoted Erdogan as saying.

Does any one know how the Armenian government has reacted about this?

Thank you for reiterating our point that Karabagh is central to the normalization process no matter what is said during the negotiations. This is why I keep saying that unless we have written gaurantees on Karabagh, we shouldn't throw away what few cards we have to play with, when all we have to rely on are Turkish promises.

How did the Armenian government react to this? The same way they react to anything of relevance-- They'll ignore it, while reemphasizing that Karabagh is not a precondition, when any casual observer can see that it clearly is. We backtracked so fast from our original position of "no preconditions", that the Turks are not only making official preconditions, but they are adding off-the-table preconditions which they will demand as soon as we sign the official ones.

I am happy about this. Officially they don't get riled up but keep a firm stance when push comes to shove.

"Firm stance" is not the term I would use. How firm did we seem when we changed a decades-long foreign policy on a whim? And how firm do we look now, when once backtracked from our original stance of no preconditions, we are now backtracking from our revised stance of not having Karabagh as one of the preconditions?

If this process somehow ends up in our favor, I will be the first one to acknowledge Sarkisyan as a bloody genius. So far I have no reason to believe this is the case. We'll wait and see.

[Eddo211]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

They just stay in the background and let big brother Russia do the talking.

Not sure about being any pawns………. A knight might be a better description in your Russian Chess game.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Haykakan, I think we're beginning to go in circles. Please realize that no one is saying Armenia should go against Russia (its impossible to exaggerate the consequences of doing such a thing), and no one is saying that the normalization of ties with Turkey should be abandoned entirely. I am only saying that there is no point in rushing the process when the preconditions clearly do not favor our side. Again, the preconditions are not exactly in Russia's interests-- Moscow doesn't care one way or the other if a historical commission is established-- but WE care. Therefore, we should stall (not abandon) the process until these things are slanted in our favor. Again, Moscow is not going to abandon its only Caucasian ally for such a small infraction. Georgia got destroyed because they openly declared war on Russia-- I propose that we do the opposite, to work WITH Russia to have these dangerous preconditions removed.

You're acting like we only have 2 options: Immediately accept the protocol, or reject it altogether. There is a middle path, namely one where we accept normalization when the process is healthy for us (in other words, no historical commission and no recognition of the borders). Why do you assume from the get-go that Turkey is going to get what they want in the end, and that we cannot negotiate our way out of it? I'm sorry to say, but this is a defeatist attitude, and its no wonder our leaders cannot avoid these absurd preconditions by sharing a similar defeatist attitude. These preconditions have nothing to do with Russia's interests-- they are the interests of Turkey and Azerbaijan. You're telling me Russia cannot pressure Turkey into removing these ridiculous preconditions?

You keep saying that Karabagh is ours no matter what--- but you're saying we should sign away rights (no matter how obsolete they seem to you) in order to secure Karabagh. This makes no sense. Why sign away ANYTHING (no matter how pointless it seems to you) when we have NOTHING to gain from it in real terms? The border issue is the most important issue for Turkey, yet some of us are willing to sign it away for nothing! This has nothing to do with emotions as you claim it does, its a matter of bad negotiating. Its this type of negotiating that shows our weakness to the Turkish diplomats--- And if you know about Turkish history, you know they are EXPERTS at focusing on a weakness and exploiting it. If you negotiate with anyone (let alone a nation with 600+ years of imperial diplomatic experience), and you backtrack and make blunders like this, they will be relentless in demanding other things. So no wonder we find ourselves in the present quandry where Turkey is demanding multiple preconditions, when our position was "no preconditions". We backtracked from our position at the very beginning of negotiations, so the Turks went on the offensive. Everyone here witnessed it. Your argument would probably be "its what Russia wanted". Really? Why didn't Russia tell Kocharian to abandon his stance of "no preconditions", and allow him to continue it for 10 years? Why does Kocharian not favor the current protocols? Why is Oskanian against them? Are you saying they don't know about "Russia's interests" when they served the highest positions in the Armenian government for over a decade? It seems that its not so much a matter of Russia's interests, its a matter of being weak on the negotiation table by changing our stance at every turn and not having a clear vision.





Thank you for reiterating our point that Karabagh is central to the normalization process no matter what is said during the negotiations. This is why I keep saying that unless we have written gaurantees on Karabagh, we shouldn't throw away what few cards we have to play with, when all we have to rely on are Turkish promises.

How did the Armenian government react to this? The same way they react to anything of relevance-- They'll ignore it, while reemphasizing that Karabagh is not a precondition, when any casual observer can see that it clearly is. We backtracked so fast from our original position of "no preconditions", that the Turks are not only making official preconditions, but they are adding off-the-table preconditions which they will demand as soon as we sign the official ones.




"Firm stance" is not the term I would use. How firm did we seem when we changed a decades-long foreign policy on a whim? And how firm do we look now, when once backtracked from our original stance of no preconditions, we are now backtracking from our revised stance of not having Karabagh as one of the preconditions?

If this process somehow ends up in our favor, I will be the first one to acknowledge Sarkisyan as a bloody genius. So far I have no reason to believe this is the case. We'll wait and see.

Your argument is based on the assumption that neither Armenia nor Russia want or need the open border between turckey and armenia but this is a false assumption to have. These nagotiations only started because all sides have much to gain by opening borders. The armenian authorities are not stupid, they know more about the situation then we do and will make the right decisions for Armenia, the diaspora shouldnt go against the government, it needs to work with it. The azeris feel they are strong enough now to take on Armenia and win back kharabagh, the only reason they have not done so is because they saw what russia does to states that go against it. As for the border opening or not it really doesnt matter to russia but it matters to us. Russia can run the azeri oil through itself to europe or it can run it through armenia to europe, either way it controls the rout but armenia can gain economicaly only if it runs through armenia and the borders open. Most people seem to downplay the benefits of open borders but armenia has a great deal to gain by them. Right or wrong, you dont get anywhere wo compromises and giving up something you dont have for something very tangible is a open and shut case. It is natural for people to think with their hearts but you cannot afford to do that when it comes to international affairs.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Not so at all.........it matters a great deal.

Also it doesn't appear so meaningless to our enemy now does it, in fact it is their most important objective.

1) How does it matter in real terms? It gets you nowhere where the alternative gets you much needed tangible results. 2)If that was the most important objective they wouldn't be trying to bring kharabagh into the mix now and would have been happy on that precondition alone but that is not the case.

[Army]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I agree with Haykanan. What are the 'benefits' of the claims on borders? Does it make Armenia wealthier, does it make the life easier for the ones living in Armenia? No. It is just a weak hope that one they those lands would be given to Armenia. Its been 85 years of Turkish Republic and till now, nothing happened. How many years should Armenians wait for more, 50? another 85? A hundred? Waiting for a partition in Anatolia but could Armenia itself can survive in those years?

I can understand that Diaspora does not care at all. They do not live in Armenia, they are not 'living' the problems of Armenia. So, it is much more easier for them "Dont sign, lets wait for another 85 years."

[Eddo211]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I agree with Haykanan. What are the 'benefits' of the claims on borders? Does it make Armenia wealthier, does it make the life easier for the ones living in Armenia? No. It is just a weak hope that one they those lands would be given to Armenia. Its been 85 years of Turkish Republic and till now, nothing happened. How many years should Armenians wait for more, 50? another 85? A hundred? Waiting for a partition in Anatolia but could Armenia itself can survive in those years?

I can understand that Diaspora does not care at all. They do not live in Armenia, they are not 'living' the problems of Armenia. So, it is much more easier for them "Dont sign, lets wait for another 85 years."

It has everything to do with honor, respect, and our human standards…………..something Turkey can never grasp. Why Turkey worry when there is nothing to worry about. Ha

They miscalculate gravely and in their pitiful failure, probably will overreact by encouraging their Azeri cousins to another defeat in near future. We are under no illusion..........our lands can only be returned by force.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

It has everything to do with honor, respect, and our human standards…………..something Turkey can never grasp. Why Turkey worry when there is nothing to worry about. Ha

They miscalculate gravely and in their pitiful failure, probably will overreact by encouraging their Azeri cousins to another defeat in near future. We are under no illusion..........our lands can only be returned by force.

Well if you think that our lands can be returned only by force (i agree), then who cares about documents etc.. In case you havent noticed honor, respect.... are internal traits and they are hardly the bases of nationbuilding and never have been.