Armenian-Turkish Relations

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

The Koran says? I doubt it. It's just a proverb.

Another advice-to-AYF proverb could be "if you cannot bite - don't show your teeth".

One thing I respect about Islam is the story of how Mohammed defeated a large army with a small one. Much like how Afghanistan brought down the USSR and soon to add USA to the list. A lot like the story of David and Goliath. Careful who you push to the edge of the cliff, desperate situations call for desperate measures.

[Anoush]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

A lot like the story of David and Goliath. Careful who you push to the edge of the cliff, desperate situations call for desperate measures.

Yes indeed, stands for truth!!!!

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I really don't think most people understand what is the reasoning behind this reapproachment and the protocals. If you look at what is in the protocalls and what is excluded, it all makes perfect sense. Today Armenia is governed by kharabghtsis and one of their objectives is to secure kharabagh. It is no accident that kharabagh is not mentioned in the protocals, this is the precondition that would have ended participation by the Armenian side since kharabghtsis control the government. These protocalls basicly mean that Armenia and Turckey are making a trade which is turckey will look the other way on the kharabagh issue (which is in armenias interest) and in return armenia will forfiet claims on western turckey (which is in turckeys interest). Basicly turckey wants to end the annoying armenian problem at azerbedjians expence. Both sides have much to gain here because open borders will make a huge difference to armenias economy and for turckey they will allow eu membership and a trouble free east-west route not just for itself but for the western countries as well (this explains the heavy western involvement). Russia also has a interest here because this scenerio will leave the only stable east-west route which doesn't run through its soil under the control of its close ally which it can easily control. This new reality on the ground will force the azeris to peace with armenia under terms favorable to the later because king alieve couldn't care less about kharabagh (despite the rhetoric)and needs another route to the west much more. So to sum things up these protocals aid in securing kharabagh, open borders and routes and end Armenias isolation at the expence of something we do not have anyways (western armenia). So are these protocals fair? No of course they are not because justice is not served by them (we recognize the borders therefor concede western armenia(which we dont have anyways)). Is accepting this agreement in Armenias interest? Yes it definetly is in Armenias interest because it basicly consolidates kharabagh gains, ends Armenias its isolation, improves its economy, makes it the hub of east-west economic traffic, overall makes it a better/stronger country at the expence of something we do not have anyways and will not get it anytime soon. The armenian-turckish reapproachment is happening because it is in everyones interest. When it comes to making decisions for those runing a country it is paramount to make cool headed unemotional decisions which favor the countries interests and this is what i see happening in Armenias government regarding this issue. Istead of flatly opposing any such deal the dashnaks should have worked with the government to make sure the details go in our favor instead of raising more obsticals. Treaties and agreemenet are made to be broken and the stronger side can and will do just that when it is in its interest so if armenia one day becomes strong enough to win back western armenia no treaty can stand in its way but unfortunately this scenerio is nowhere in the near future. It is important that we look at the situation as it is today and make our decisions based on reality. The reality is that this deal is good for all sides involved and this is why it will probably fall through. So what role should the diaspora play? Instead of oposing it and the government flatout we need to work with it to make sure the details go in our favor and to maintain influence in Armenia itself. Dashnaktsutyun is quickly becoming the party of "no" in Armenia which is what happened to the republicans in the USA. I don't want to imply that our government is run buy selfless saints but remember these guys are our people to and they are kharabaghtsis who fought and bled for kharabagh and Armenia. They will do what is best for Armenia and can use your support instead of opposition. Dashnaktsutsun joining LTP is like hezbolah joining the IDF, it makes no sence at all. LTP is the same guy who conceeded kharabagh and today is claiming that the people who threw him out and saved kharabagh are the traders. Reality is where we all live in and our decisions need to be based on it instead of unrealistic scenerious which can do more harm then good to what matters most.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Haykakan... unlike the "Republicans" who were war profiteers at the expense of poor citizens from day 1, Dashnaks are conservatives of Armenian culture. Their rhetoric may sound the same but their hearts are in two totally different places. We can't forget that unlike what the media likes to make us think, we live in an extremely racist world. A chunk of Turkey belongs to us, it's just a matter of time unless we sign away our vision. Israel got to where they did by being patient, working behind the scenes and planning things decades in advance. We need visionaries and right now Armenia's leaders are living for today.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Haykakan... unlike the "Republicans" who were war profiteers at the expense of poor citizens from day 1, Dashnaks are conservatives of Armenian culture. Their rhetoric may sound the same but their hearts are in two totally different places. We can't forget that unlike what the media likes to make us think, we live in an extremely racist world. A chunk of Turkey belongs to us, it's just a matter of time unless we sign away our vision. Israel got to where they did by being patient, working behind the scenes and planning things decades in advance. We need visionaries and right now Armenia's leaders are living for today.

Your example perfectly sudstantiates my argument. Isreal had no legal claim to the land they occupy but legal documents and treaties are meaningless and won't stand up to power. The protocals in reality give up nothing and openup a lot of oppertinities. Dashnaks may have their hearts in the right place but they need to follow their minds instead, governing based on emotions leads to disaster.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Your example perfectly sudstantiates my argument. Isreal had no legal claim to the land they occupy but legal documents and treaties are meaningless and won't stand up to power. The protocals in reality give up nothing and openup a lot of oppertinities. Dashnaks may have their hearts in the right place but they need to follow their minds instead, governing based on emotions leads to disaster.

When the powerful bankers have your name on a mortgage statement and you can't pay back the loan, they repossess your house. They are in a position of power and you signed an agreement acknowledging that they own you. Now, not only do they have the power which they had all along but you have given in to their postion of power. This is how I see the current situation. Power + documentation = bullet proof.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Power>evrything else. This is how things have always been and will always be. Documents are only as valid as the power behind them allows them to be.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Power>evrything else. This is how things have always been and will always be. Documents are only as valid as the power behind them allows them to be.

So all that is needed is patience in order for a few Armenians to get in the right places so they can back up existing documents. Why sign something away that is rightfully yours?

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

So all that is needed is patience in order for a few Armenians to get in the right places so they can back up existing documents. Why sign something away that is rightfully yours?

You really think that by having a few Armenians in the right places you can get back Western Armenia? Sorry to dissapoint but that is not going to happen, even the xxxs had to fight to get land. The idea that a few more armenians in the right places will.... is totally flawed, we are talking about defeating turckey and 80 million turcks backed up by xxxs and americans. Look at reality for what it really is, daydreaming about rossie scenerious will get you nowhere. It has been almost a hundered years and the few armenians in their right places can't even make the USA utter the G word. It is important that we all distinguish reality from the way we wish things were. Only by basing our decisions in reality will we ever get what we want. The thing that is rightfully ours is not ours today nor will it be anytime soon, so by signing it away your not giving anything up in reality and you gain real tangible things which make Armenia a better and stronger place for it's people. Signing such a document in no way will stop us from reclaiming our lands if we ever become powerfull enough to do so. The powerfull are the ones who make and break laws as they see fit so number one priority should be making our Armenia more powerful instead of filling the pockets of useless polititions. I don't know about you but i have lost track of how much money we have spent lobbying for genocide recognition etc and we have absolutely nothing to show for it. People put your money where it will matter most-ARMENIA.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

So all that is needed is patience in order for a few Armenians to get in the right places so they can back up existing documents. Why sign something away that is rightfully yours?

I think because something is going to happen in Javakh, I've got a feeling that the next war will be fought there. And I think the government wants a second border open so it will not be isolated 100%.

You really think that by having a few Armenians in the right places you can get back Western Armenia? Sorry to dissapoint but that is not going to happen, even the xxxs had to fight to get land. The idea that a few more armenians in the right places will.... is totally flawed, we are talking about defeating turckey and 80 million turcks backed up by xxxs and americans. Look at reality for what it really is, daydreaming about rossie scenerious will get you nowhere. It has been almost a hundered years and the few armenians in their right places can't even make the USA utter the G word. It is important that we all distinguish reality from the way we wish things were. Only by basing our decisions in reality will we ever get what we want. The thing that is rightfully ours is not ours today nor will it be anytime soon, so by signing it away your not giving anything up in reality and you gain real tangible things which make Armenia a better and stronger place for it's people. Signing such a document in no way will stop us from reclaiming our lands if we ever become powerfull enough to do so. The powerfull are the ones who make and break laws as they see fit so number one priority should be making our Armenia more powerful instead of filling the pockets of useless polititions. I don't know about you but i have lost track of how much money we have spent lobbying for genocide recognition etc and we have absolutely nothing to show for it. People put your money where it will matter most-ARMENIA.

We can only get Western-Armenia back when we are strong enough, united and ready to rule those lands. And also we need a geo-political shift in the region and the world so that we can achieve that. I'll do everything in my power to make Armenia more powerful and get our lands back. Like the Zionists did for Israel and are still doing.