Armenian-Turkish Relations

[Alexandros]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

How could Ataturk have supported this in 1915 when he was only a middle ranking officer engaged in the Gallipoli defense under General Limon Van Sanders?

Wrong to the point of almost comical. Is this amateur hour Alexandros? Do you even read any of these articles before posting them. Or is the only requirement being they must be anti-turkish?

I think what the author meant was that Ataturk continued the Genocide against the Christians even after when the Young Turks were starting to lose power...

Ottoman Genocide against Christian Minorities: General Comments and Sources

"It is believed that in Turkey between 1913 and 1922, under the successive regimes of the Young Turks and of Mustafa Kemal (Ataturk) , more than 3.5 million Armenian, Assyrian and Greek Christians were massacred in a state-organized and state-sponsored campaign of destruction and genocide, aiming at wiping out from the emerging Turkish Republic its native Christian populations. This Christian Holocaust is viewed as the precursor to the Je_wish Holocaust in WWII. To this day, the Turkish government ostensibly denies having committed this genocide."


— Prof. Israel Charney, President of the IAGS [International Association of Genocide Scholars]

Link

Professor Israel Charney`s biography:

Israel W. Charny is the Editor-in-Chief of the Encyclopedia of Genocide; Executive Director of the Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide, Jerusalem; Professor of Psychology & Family Therapy, and Founder and Former Director of the Program for Advanced Studies in Integrative Psychotherapy at the Dept. of Psychology & Martin Buber Center, Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

Link

Are you also going to claim that Israel W. Charny is also "Anti-Turkish"?

[garod]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

It’s Turkey, Not Armenia, That’s Hindering Rapprochement: Amberin Zaman

Ankara doesn’t stand behind its signature on the Armenian-Turkish Protocols, said Turkey correspondent for The Economist and Taraf columnist, Amberin Zaman, who also happens to be married to U.S. Embassy in Armenia’s Deputy Chief of Mission Joseph Pennington.

“Turkey’s foreign minister Ahmet Davutoglu said the following to his Armenian counterpart, Edward Nalbandian: ‘Stand behind your signature on the Protocol. We expect a display of political will from the Armenian side. Otherwise, a completely new situation will arise.’ However, it’s Turkey who isn’t standing behind their signature,” said Zaman, adding that though there was no clause in the Protocols which referred to Nagorno-Karabakh, Turkey has nevertheless connected that issue with the process of establishing Armenia-Turkey relations.

The Taraf columnist also noted that such a situation wouldn’t have come about if the Protocols were implemented immediately. “If instead of presenting the Protocols in parliament, they were put into effect, this unpleasant ‘new state of affairs’ wouldn’t have come about, and the process wouldn’t have been hindered,” writes Zaman, adding that the final point to this issue was that after the United States, Russia made a statement that the establishment of Armenia-Turkey relations shouldn’t be tied to the resolution of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict.

Source :http://www.tert.am/en/news/2010/01/22/amberini/

[Hye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Hi gegev
If we are going to depand what Turkey has to say then it means there was no Genocide and actually we have commited Genocide in the first place although vast majority of Historians confirm the fact of the Genocide.

Your Qote: "Doesn’t this mean that w/o the Court reservations they got them all?"
ACCORDING TO THEM maybe yes and unfortunately according to some Armenians who were and still are actually helping Turkey in their propaganda. But according to Armenia it's leasership and many Armenians (including me) didn't have beofre nor have now nor will have in the future. If you want we can discuss the text of the protocol (if it hasn't been discussed before) and we'll see to what extend these stand.


My point, and Serje Sarksian was saying this all along, is that who is or was allowing these points to occure in the first place? And in fact by the court decision we can know for sure that this Government means business they are seriouse and aware. just like Serje was saying us before during and after the signing now we can see concrete steps. And this is a proof to all those who had doupt in Armenian leadership.

I would ask your question back to you. Does everything Turkey says, without getting ratified by the parliament, have force of being legally binding document; to be used in international affairs?
So in the end let's have some faith in thsi leadership though not blind faith if we have something constructuve to say lets say it but let's not show a weak front in front of the Turks if a decission is made let's stick to it if you disagree give ulternatives be civilized don't call this a traitor that a donckey or an idiot because Im sure if you have a better way no one will say no. Moreover if you have no ulternative better not to talk at all.

To end my post just wanna ask Can you see the brilliance here? It is a legally forward step because Armenia actually took the first step to ratify the protocol telling to the world i did the first step of my comitmant whereas Turkey hasn't done anything on contrary they are talking about preconditions. Second had reconfirmed it's initial step that was making some Armenians nervouse and hens gaining some more credibility. Third they showed to Turkey with concrete steps that it can not play with Armenia. We just have to wait and see.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

How could Ataturk have supported this in 1915 when he was only a middle ranking officer engaged in the Gallipoli defense under General Limon Van Sanders?

Wrong to the point of almost comical. Is this amateur hour Alexandros? Do you even read any of these articles before posting them. Or is the only requirement being they must be anti-turkish?

You are the comic ... but a failed, stupid comic whose jokes are not funny.

Ataturk was in Bitlis in 1916, so he was well aware of the slaugher at first hand. When he was in a position of power what did he do - he finished off the genocide by having his nationalist forces massacre tens of thousands of genocide survivors, and forcing the remainder to flee again for their lives. Then he single-handed invented a regime that not only denied the genocide had happened, but even denied that Armenians had existed in great numbers, denied that there was historically a place called Armenia, and invented laughable official Turkish history that "proved" the existence of "Hittite Turks" and "Urartian Turks".

[ashot24]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Ataturk was in Bitlis in 1916, so he was well aware of the slaugher at first hand. When he was in a position of power what did he do - he finished off the genocide by having his nationalist forces massacre tens of thousands of genocide survivors, and forcing the remainder to flee again for their lives. Then he single-handed invented a regime that not only denied the genocide had happened, but even denied that Armenians had existed in great numbers, denied that there was historically a place called Armenia, and invented laughable official Turkish history that "proved" the existence of "Hittite Turks" and "Urartian Turks".

Not to mention he was and is one of the main figures, supporters and spreaders of Pan-Turkism, and if anyone is guilty for the racism and that both Turkey and Azebaijan have towards Armenians, as well as Greeks and Assyrians (Turkey's case) is him. Amongst all the people who are guilty for the injustices our people has gone through the last century up until today is him and his regime, which tried through every mean to destroy the existence of Armenia socially and politically. Because he couldn't fulfill that, he sent to destroy every trace of Armenian culture and history inside Western Armenia, but that wasn't accomplished either, so he personally created, arranged, and institutionalized a system starting from the cradle to the grave where Armenians (among others) are portrayed as the enemies of the Turkish state, and the thieves of the """millenarian""" Turkish culture, as the liars who come up with invented stories trying to tarnish with blood the good name of the Turkish people, as the 'scum of the earth'...there's no doubt where Hitler took inspiration.

But life is funny....Sabiha Gökçen, one of Atatürk's adopted children and Turkey's first woman pilot, had Armenian roots and was originally named Hatun Sebiljyan. She lost her family in the Armenian Genocide and was sent to an orphanage where she was adopted by Atatürk, as proved by the survivors of her own lost family in one of the many cases of ethnic Armenian so-called-Turkish people studied by Hrant Dinq and published by Akos. But of course Turkish officials strongly deny this and label it as one of the many 'Armenian tales', and this was one of the many reasons why Dinq was killed, for daring to prove one of Turkey's most important women was Armenian. And Turkish history if full of important people who were ethnic Armenians...how funny, doesn't it?

Atatürk founded the Turkish state looking for 'freedom', 'rights', 'justice' for the Turkish people, but all of that was at the cost of our freedom, our rights, our justice...but that's always like that, for one people to enjoy others have to suffer, for one people to live others have to die. It's amazing how unfair live is.

[egeli]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Not to mention he was and is one of the main figures, supporters and spreaders of Pan-Turkism, and if anyone is guilty for the racism and that both Turkey and Azebaijan have towards Armenians, as well as Greeks and Assyrians (Turkey's case) is him. Amongst all the people who are guilty for the injustices our people has gone through the last century up until today is him and his regime, which tried through every mean to destroy the existence of Armenia socially and politically. Because he couldn't fulfill that, he sent to destroy every trace of Armenian culture and history inside Western Armenia, but that wasn't accomplished either, so he personally created, arranged, and institutionalized a system starting from the cradle to the grave where Armenians (among others) are portrayed as the enemies of the Turkish state, and the thieves of the """millenarian""" Turkish culture, as the liars who come up with invented stories trying to tarnish with blood the good name of the Turkish people, as the 'scum of the earth'...there's no doubt where Hitler took inspiration.

But life is funny....Sabiha Gökçen, one of Atatürk's adopted children and Turkey's first woman pilot, had Armenian roots and was originally named Hatun Sebiljyan. She lost her family in the Armenian Genocide and was sent to an orphanage where she was adopted by Atatürk, as proved by the survivors of her own lost family in one of the many cases of ethnic Armenian so-called-Turkish people studied by Hrant Dinq and published by Akos. But of course Turkish officials strongly deny this and label it as one of the many 'Armenian tales', and this was one of the many reasons why Dinq was killed, for daring to prove one of Turkey's most important women was Armenian. And Turkish history if full of important people who were ethnic Armenians...how funny, doesn't it?

Atatürk founded the Turkish state looking for 'freedom', 'rights', 'justice' for the Turkish people, but all of that was at the cost of our freedom, our rights, our justice...but that's always like that, for one people to enjoy others have to suffer, for one people to live others have to die. It's amazing how unfair live is.

Mustafa Kemal was extremly opposed to pan-Turanism. Do you know why Enver, Talat, and Cemal Pasha all died outside of Turkey? They were expelled by Mustafa Kemal for being ideologically opposed to his principles.

There is no ethnic nationalism in Kemalism. Every Muslim is a Turk. Considering how Mustafa Kemal invited Istanbul-Armenians to form the Turkish Language, the foundation for Turkish identity, he most likely envisioned loyal indigenous Christians as Turks.

His views have always been too radical for Turkey. Do not be fooled, Ataturk is not Mustafa Kemal. The state has disgraced his legacy from the moment he died.

Contemporary Kemalism has merged with Turanism.

[ashot24]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Mustafa Kemal was extremly opposed to pan-Turanism. Do you know why Enver, Talat, and Cemal Pasha all died outside of Turkey? They were expelled by Mustafa Kemal for being ideologically opposed to his principles.

There is no ethnic nationalism in Kemalism. Every Muslim is a Turk. Considering how Mustafa Kemal invited Istanbul-Armenians to form the Turkish Language, the foundation for Turkish identity, he most likely envisioned loyal indigenous Christians as Turks.

His views have always been too radical for Turkey. Do not be fooled, Ataturk is not Mustafa Kemal. The state has disgraced his legacy from the moment he died.

Contemporary Kemalism has merged with Turanism.

I respect your view, but Mustafa Kemal was one of the main figures of pan-turanism. He expelled the Pashas for being against his views, Atatürk expelled anyone who didn't share his views, but that doesn't mean he was not a pan-turanist.

Much of the principle of pan-turanism, which is re-inventing history, is based on the work of Atatürk. He himself stated “Writing history is as important as making history”, which is of course what he did. In the First History Congress in Ankara in 1932, the main mission of the many Turkish 'historians' and 'historical institutions', such as the Turkish Historical Society, invited personally by Atatürk, was to produce historical narratives and linguistic validation for pan-Turanist ideologies, for example the “Sun Language Theory”, which states that: all human languages are descendants of one Central Asian primal language. and the only language remaining more or less the same as this primal language is Turkish, hence Turkic people are the heirs of nearly all civilizations.

Out of this congress, the Turkish state institutionalized in the education system the reforms made on every single History book published in the Republic of Turkey. Atatürk was one of the main figures of pan-turanism, as he grouped all the previous works made by other pan-turanists, edited them, enlarged them, developed them, modified them, bettered them, and institutionalized them.

Many Armenians were invited by Atatürk to make his reforms, but these Armenians were particularly close to the Turkish state and some of them held important positions during the Ottoman Empire, such as Berch Kerestejyan, who besides saving Atatürk's life, was the director of the Ottoman Bank, and he provided large quantities of money and funds to fight the "enemy" from 1919 to 1922 during the wars Turkey fought before the founding of the republic. And who were the enemy? Of course, one of them were the Armenians. That kind of 'Armenians' were the ones Atatürk invited.

As you say, Mustafa Kemal is not the same as Atatürk, those were too different people. Mustafa Kemal modernized the Turkish state and got the Turkish civilization at the gates of the 20th century, he did many great things for Turkey, but then he was turned into Atatürk, the man who left the bases for Turkish state system in every area as we see today.

Kemalism never merged with Turanism, it was born out of it. Atatürk's legacy was never disgraced, it was enlarged and engreatened. Mustafa Kemal is not remembered in Turkey, Atatürk is.

[Jos]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

You are the comic ... but a failed, stupid comic whose jokes are not funny.

Ataturk was in Bitlis in 1916, so he was well aware of the slaugher at first hand. When he was in a position of power what did he do - he finished off the genocide by having his nationalist forces massacre tens of thousands of genocide survivors, and forcing the remainder to flee again for their lives. Then he single-handed invented a regime that not only denied the genocide had happened, but even denied that Armenians had existed in great numbers, denied that there was historically a place called Armenia, and invented laughable official Turkish history that "proved" the existence of "Hittite Turks" and "Urartian Turks".

Bell, I've read some of your posts. You've been on this comedy circuit a long longer than I have, for the most delivering punchy but stale one liners. But you behave like one of those 50 something year old guys hanging out at nighclubs with 20 something year olds. Bell, what are you still doing here?

Most of your points are irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but it's ironic how you chose to mention Bitlis - being one of the strongholds of the Armenian revolutionary movement in mid 1915 and the scene of some of the heaviest fighting between Armenian guerilla and Ottoman troops ....and what was Ataturk doing in Bitlis around August 1916? Re-taking Bitlis from General Nazarbekov, the Russian commander not rounding up Armenian surviviors as your post would suggest.

But that's not really the point of discussion. We're discussing sloppy writing by someone masquerading as a professional journalist claiming that: "Kemal Ataturk... himself supported the destruction of Christianity via the Armenian, Assyrian and Greek Christian genocide of 1915".

Grammatically it suggests that he did something in the present tense i.e. specifically in 1915. The reality is as someone of only limited rank up to 1918 what could have Ataturk done or should have done at the time (to borrow one of your earlier phrases)?

[egeli]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I respect your view, but Mustafa Kemal was one of the main figures of pan-turanism. He expelled the Pashas for being against his views, Atatürk expelled anyone who didn't share his views, but that doesn't mean he was not a pan-turanist.

Much of the principle of pan-turanism, which is re-inventing history, is based on the work of Atatürk. He himself stated “Writing history is as important as making history”, which is of course what he did. In the First History Congress in Ankara in 1932, the main mission of the many Turkish 'historians' and 'historical institutions', such as the Turkish Historical Society, invited personally by Atatürk, was to produce historical narratives and linguistic validation for pan-Turanist ideologies, for example the “Sun Language Theory”, which states that: all human languages are descendants of one Central Asian primal language. and the only language remaining more or less the same as this primal language is Turkish, hence Turkic people are the heirs of nearly all civilizations.

Out of this congress, the Turkish state institutionalized in the education system the reforms made on every single History book published in the Republic of Turkey. Atatürk was one of the main figures of pan-turanism, as he grouped all the previous works made by other pan-turanists, edited them, enlarged them, developed them, modified them, bettered them, and institutionalized them.

Many Armenians were invited by Atatürk to make his reforms, but these Armenians were particularly close to the Turkish state and some of them held important positions during the Ottoman Empire, such as Berch Kerestejyan, who besides saving Atatürk's life, was the director of the Ottoman Bank, and he provided large quantities of money and funds to fight the "enemy" from 1919 to 1922 during the wars Turkey fought before the founding of the republic. And who were the enemy? Of course, one of them were the Armenians. That kind of 'Armenians' were the ones Atatürk invited.

As you say, Mustafa Kemal is not the same as Atatürk, those were too different people. Mustafa Kemal modernized the Turkish state and got the Turkish civilization at the gates of the 20th century, he did many great things for Turkey, but then he was turned into Atatürk, the man who left the bases for Turkish state system in every area as we see today.

Kemalism never merged with Turanism, it was born out of it. Atatürk's legacy was never disgraced, it was enlarged and engreatened. Mustafa Kemal is not remembered in Turkey, Atatürk is.

Thanks for your post. We seem to have different definitions of pan-Turanism. The committee of union and progress, or İttihat ve Terakki Cemiyeti, was an ethnic-nationalist / Islamist organization that wished to unite Turkic Muslims from Anatolia to Central Asia under one state. As the de-facto regime of the Ottoman Empire from 1908 to mid WWI, they executed the Armenian Genocide as the first step in establishing a homogeneous Turanist nation-state.

Mustafa Kemal viewed the CUP policies as a romantic ideal inherently infused with political Islam. He vehemently opposed a successor State that pointed eastward into Central Asia. His vision was a state that emulated "The West"'s modernity and mentality.

Islamism was Mustafa Kemal's main obstacle.In order to suppress political Islam, Mustafa Kemal knew Turks must not primarily identify themselves as Muslims. Turks needed a non-confessional ethnic identity. He saw hypotheses such as the "Sun Theory" as a means of giving Turks a secular heritage.

Mustafa Kemal was not a historian or even a scholar. I doubt there was a single legitimate historian at the turn of the century; this was an era that was extraordinary biased by nationalism. He was above all else a pragmatist and a national builder. He carefully reconstructed Turkish heritage so all that all citizens, regardless of religion and ethnicity, can feel united as one nation.

Unlike the CUP pan-Turanists, Mustafa Kemal incorporated non-Turkic elements into Turkish national heritage. Hittites, Lycians, and Trojans were perfect predecessors for Mustafa Kemal's new nation. These ancient Anatolian civilizations came long before the primitive Arab influences of Islam, and most importantly they were of a separate heritage from the rebellious Greeks and Armenians.

Pan-Turanists saw Turks as an exclusive ethnic identity. Under their regime, Turkey's motto would have been "Happy who is a Turk". Kemalism in its true form was an extremely inclusive national identity. So inclusive, that it was compulsory. Kemalism has only one true motto : "Happy who CALLS himself a Turk.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

U.S. Praises Armenian High Court Ruling On Turkish Protocols


The praise follows a conversation between Turkey Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu (in file photo) and U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.


January 25, 2010
YEREVAN -- The United States says it welcomes a controversial ruling by Armenia's Constitutional Court that Turkey has criticized as running counter to Turkish-Armenian protocols aimed at rapprochement, RFE/RL's Armenian Service reports.

U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Philip Gordon said in a statement sent to RFE/RL that Washington views "the court decision as a positive step forward in the ratification process of the normalization protocols between Turkey and Armenia."

He added in the January 22 statement that the court decision "permits the protocols, as they were negotiated and signed, to move forward towards parliamentary ratification, and does not appear to limit or qualify them in any way."

Gordon said "We are confident that both Turkey and Armenia take their commitment to the protocols seriously, and we urge timely ratification of the protocols by both countries."

The comments follow a reported phone conversation between U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu. The Anatolia news agency quoted an unnamed Turkish Foreign Ministry official as saying that Davutoglu reiterated to Clinton Ankara's claims that the Armenian court's interpretation of the protocols' implications contradicts their "essence and substance."

Davutoglu said earlier on January 22 that he will urge his U.S. and Swiss counterparts to put pressure on the Armenian leadership.

Washington's reaction to the Turkish claims will boost Yerevan's position in the row which has raised more questions about the success of the U.S.-backed normalization process. U.S. officials have repeatedly urged Armenia and Turkey to implement the landmark agreements without preconditions and within a "reasonable" period of time.

Gordon said that Washington's position is unchanged. "We support the normalization process, which we believe contributes to peace and stability in the Caucasus. What is critical is to keep the parties focused on the vital importance of moving ahead."

http://www.rferl.org/content/US_Prai...s/1939073.html
________________________________

I see this going nowhere fast.