When we get East Anatolia back...

[Gazan]

Re: When we get East Anatolia back...

If you are at liberty to do so, could you elaborate on your above projections. I would especially like to know why you think that Armenia would not get access to the Black sea once it's borders are restored to treaty of sevres.

There are several reasons:

1. Is the fact that we will definitely go for Javakhq and depending on Georgia's position in that regional conflict our task might be very difficult. In other words if georgians will end up being allies to our allies then the unification (please not unification not liberation) of Javakhq might become very hard to achieve. However we will achieve that against all the odds because the well-being of 400 thousands Armenians will be at stake. But since we are not the conquering and all-dictating power, we will need the final OK of the states who are, and they are not going to grant us both the Black Sea coast and Javakhq.

2. The Treaty of Sevres might or might not become the basis for the new regional borders. Plus, as far as I know, Wilson's map was used as the basis for the Sevre's borders. Wilson might have been a decent guy but he draw a map that had no historical justification for inclusion of the Black Sea coast since we all know that the coast was never part of Armenia, not even during Great Armenia of Tigran II. The rest of the map is what Armenia always was. Whether that was a coinsident or he did a research I don't know but the fact is the the entire map except for the coast is our Armenia, and that was the main reason why I mentioned Sevres in my previous post.

3. There are several million Laz people who live in those lands and consider that patch of land as their homeland. These Laz people will definitely not join the turks, and most likely, unless dragged into the conflict, they will stay neutral. The best case scenario they will support the anti-turkish coalition and if they do then no one will be able to claim that land after the conflict except for them. In the new turkey the Laz will be given a generous autonomy within turkey and this will be the end of the black sea coast debate.

4. We don't really need to shed our very limited source of blood for that coast not only because of the 3 points above but also because we already have a Black Sea port under our disposal. And in the future, specially after that regional conflict that sea port will be cemented for us for good. I'm talking about Sukhumi, the capitol of Abkhasia. It's no secret that Armenians are a major player in that unrecognised, de-facto republic which enjoys and always will enjoy unlimited Russian protection for basically forever. In fact Armenians there are so strong that they not only run most of the business but they run most of the government and military as well. And with the ongoing migration of our brothers from South Russia to Abkhazia we can look forward to even stronger Armenian presence in that republic. The only thing is that we have to make sure to respect the Abkhazians and not appear to be a colonial force. I'm sure our people there are wise enough to never allow that to happen.

PS. An additional point to the paragraph 3 above: We have around 30+ thousand Hamsheni (mostly moslem) Armenians in the Trabzon area, however we will be much better off letting them and the Laz people govern that place as an autonomous province inside the new turkey. Of course any Hamsheni that will wish to migrate south to Karin, Van etc should be welcomed.

[gmd]

Re: When we get East Anatolia back...

i would have to question why Artvin/Hopa would not be in Armenia's reach. If anything the Hemshen/Georgian muslim population is a larger % of the whole for that region. Regardless, the population there is smaller and economically disatavantaged compared to the rest of Turkey. It is not at all unrealistic to take and hold these lands (at some point in the future).

There are several reasons:

1. Is the fact that we will definitely go for Javakhq and depending on Georgia's position in that regional conflict our task might be very difficult. In other words if georgians will end up being allies to our allies then the unification (please not unification not liberation) of Javakhq might become very hard to achieve. However we will achieve that against all the odds because the well-being of 400 thousands Armenians will be at stake. But since we are not the conquering and all-dictating power, we will need the final OK of the states who are, and they are not going to grant us both the Black Sea coast and Javakhq.

2. The Treaty of Sevres might or might not become the basis for the new regional borders. Plus, as far as I know, Wilson's map was used as the basis for the Sevre's borders. Wilson might have been a decent guy but he draw a map that had no historical justification for inclusion of the Black Sea coast since we all know that the coast was never part of Armenia, not even during Great Armenia of Tigran II. The rest of the map is what Armenia always was. Whether that was a coinsident or he did a research I don't know but the fact is the the entire map except for the coast is our Armenia, and that was the main reason why I mentioned Sevres in my previous post.

3. There are several million Laz people who live in those lands and consider that patch of land as their homeland. These Laz people will definitely not join the turks, and most likely, unless dragged into the conflict, they will stay neutral. The best case scenario they will support the anti-turkish coalition and if they do then no one will be able to claim that land after the conflict except for them. In the new turkey the Laz will be given a generous autonomy within turkey and this will be the end of the black sea coast debate.

4. We don't really need to shed our very limited source of blood for that coast not only because of the 3 points above but also because we already have a Black Sea port under our disposal. And in the future, specially after that regional conflict that sea port will be cemented for us for good. I'm talking about Sukhumi, the capitol of Abkhasia. It's no secret that Armenians are a major player in that unrecognised, de-facto republic which enjoys and always will enjoy unlimited Russian protection for basically forever. In fact Armenians there are so strong that they not only run most of the business but they run most of the government and military as well. And with the ongoing migration of our brothers from South Russia to Abkhazia we can look forward to even stronger Armenian presence in that republic. The only thing is that we have to make sure to respect the Abkhazians and not appear to be a colonial force. I'm sure our people there are wise enough to never allow that to happen.

PS. An additional point to the paragraph 3 above: We have around 30+ thousand Hamsheni (mostly moslem) Armenians in the Trabzon area, however we will be much better off letting them and the Laz people govern that place as an autonomous province inside the new turkey. Of course any Hamsheni that will wish to migrate south to Karin, Van etc should be welcomed.

[ArmenianKid]

Re: When we get East Anatolia back...

I think you got a very limited knowledge of what our military has and what it hasn't. And yet, despite that you make such a rudiculous statement. I'm not at liberty to discuss what I know but I can tell you this much: In conjunction with Russia, we have "things" that not only turks but even the americans can only dream about. Currently americans are entering their 22nd year of research in order to create at least something similar to what Russians have. Pay attention to the word "similar". In that particular field the yanks didn't even reach the level the Russians did over 20 years ago, in other words they got absolutely no equal weapon let alone something that can beat the Russian creation.

Secondly comparing our military with turkish military is like comparing apples and oranges. The fact that they both call "military" means nothing, they are two very different organisations with their specific strengths and weaknesses. I ask people to forget about their (turkish) so-called "1 million strong army" etc and concentrate on the fact that the war will not be strickly between us and turks, it will be a regional war with a tendency of a globar war. We will be a major player in that war but we will not have others shedding their blood for our interests unless ours and theirs is common. We will have to do most of the fighting etc ourselfs, if we don't then we will end up losing what we have as well.

As for revenge and comparing us with them saying we are no better than they are if we would seek revenge on them: I have to say to you that I have heard this bul-l-sh-i-t so many times from so many specially diasporan Armenians that I'm sick and tired of it. To have a view like that is such a gutlessness, such a disgusting cowardice and treason to the memory of our people and to the future of our children.

Half of the turks is the price of the murder they have commited. We should also strive to achieve the destruction of their country, which will be easier to achieve after 30 million turks will be wiped out by an unknown desease. Then we shall participate in a creation of a new turkey!

I will admitt i only know stuff about the Armenian Army that the Armenian officers that come here to train tell me. But what they tell me is that they are sorley underfunded. I can't fully belive what you tell me about the Russian weapons is true. I've heard about the Black Eagle tank and the Sunburn missle both which if they are mass produced could be nasty to fight. But Russia doesn't have the economy for the mass producing.

Anyone who has ever taken a life wouldn't say what you did. No matter the reason or person, killing is the worst thing a human being can do. I know millions of our people were killed, and the turks are terrible people for doing it. But do millions of innocent people need to die again? no. Genocide should never be brought on any people turk or not.

I agree on the regional war thing. I would hope the EU would back armenia and the US would stay out of it. We can't fight another war any time soon. Georgia and the Azeris would back Turkey while Russia, Greece i would hope Iran would back Armenia. It would be a horrible war i would wish would never happen. hundreds of thousands would die. I wold not wish that on anyone.

[ace]

Re: When we get East Anatolia back...

Every time a new nation is born, it must carry out a process of Ethnic cleansing, mass deportations, and or a form of genocide against any and all possible threatening groups.

This is, however, only necessary when a foreign people (or another people if you are the foreign conquerors) inhabit the land you occupy. In our case - if we ever do get political rights to any part of Turkey, we are going to have to cleanse that area of the populations that live there.

No other compromise can be made.

[Gazan]

Re: When we get East Anatolia back...

I will admitt i only know stuff about the Armenian Army that the Armenian officers that come here to train tell me. But what they tell me is that they are sorley underfunded. I can't fully belive what you tell me about the Russian weapons is true. I've heard about the Black Eagle tank and the Sunburn missle both which if they are mass produced could be nasty to fight. But Russia doesn't have the economy for the mass producing.

Anyone who has ever taken a life wouldn't say what you did. No matter the reason or person, killing is the worst thing a human being can do. I know millions of our people were killed, and the turks are terrible people for doing it. But do millions of innocent people need to die again? no. Genocide should never be brought on any people turk or not.

Those officers you spoke to wouldn't know about those weapons because its basically a secret, plus those weapons can not be used at this stage by our military because a) those weapons are in Russia and b) the Russians have to decide that the time has come to choose a team and train them, which will happen regardless whether there is a war or not since that training is part of our treaty with Russia. As for the weapons, they will be provided when they will be needed.

Firstly,this weapon is absolutely a non mass production weapon and secondly Russia has huge financial resourses, especially for it's military. The only western source that would have probably 70% correct info on Russia is CIA, so don't believe what you see and read in the west about Russia unless you are reading highly classified docs from CIA.

I feel sorry for you to hear your view on our Justice.

Even if turkey will recognise the Genocide tomorrow they will not return our stolen land. In the best case scenario they will say sorry, pay billions of dollars in compensation and give the right of return to the decendants. That's it! The decendans won't receive even an inch of the land, instead they will be given money and none of the decendands will ever go to live in turkey. There are Armenians who would be very happy with this outcome (maybe including yourself) but there are Armenians who won't. We won't because we don't care if the turk is sorry or not (even if he is really sorry) and we don't care about their billions in compensation because they won't save millions of our people from the white genocide (the assimilitaion). What we care about is the future of our people who are not in Armenia. They can only have a future if they are in Armenia, either in the current one or in the liberated one. What we care about is giving the proper respect to the millions of our martyrs by destroying the country which was build on their bones and by inflicting a permanent damage on the decendands of murders who killed them.

[ArmenianKid]

Re: When we get East Anatolia back...

I still don't understand what justifies the killing of millions of innocents. By that logic if the armenians did it to the turks back, then the turks would be justifed to do it again afterwards. Its a circle of genocide that would never end.
I really wish we would get East Anatolia back. But its a dream. One that i hope never comes true if it means more innocent people will die.

[ace]

Re: When we get East Anatolia back...

I still don't understand what justifies the killing of millions of innocents. By that logic if the armenians did it to the turks back, then the turks would be justifed to do it again afterwards. Its a circle of genocide that would never end.
I really wish we would get East Anatolia back. But its a dream. One that i hope never comes true if it means more innocent people will die.

Nothing justifies it - its the most disgusting crime you can commit. However, thats politics.

[Gazan]

Re: When we get East Anatolia back...

I still don't understand what justifies the killing of millions of innocents. By that logic if the armenians did it to the turks back, then the turks would be justifed to do it again afterwards. Its a circle of genocide that would never end.
I really wish we would get East Anatolia back. But its a dream. One that i hope never comes true if it means more innocent people will die.

You don't know the nature of these rats (turks), dont you? Those so-called "innocent" turks who currently live on our lands are ready and willing to kill, rob and rape as soon as the opportunity presents itself. But you won't undestand that because you are sitting comfortably in the US and not next to these savages.

No, the turks will not be able to kill us again because once our Justice is served their back will be brocken and their country will be in ruins. The new turkey will be a very different place - compact, peaceful and ruled by turks who would be themselfs very different to the current turkish government.

It's not a dream, it's our part of the plan and provided a few other things work in our favour this plan will be a success.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: When we get East Anatolia back...

Gazan let's hope that the plan will sucseed cause evrey day that turkey exists it's a insult for humanity and if you need some extra help contact me always ready to fight turks

[ArmenianKid]

Re: When we get East Anatolia back...

Gazan and KarotheGreat, your both bloodthirsty zelots. Neither of you knows what it means to take a life. The turks that commited the genocide are long dead or old and useless. Your justifiing the same with the Young Turks did, and nothing seperates you besides time.