Kosovo's Independence: Thorn on both sides?

[kosovan_hun]

Re: Kosovo's Independence: Thorn on both sides?

Stop talking stupid, the people in Washington DC that want "independence" for Kosovo are the same ones who want Artsakh to be given to Azeris.

Kosovo was Serbian land that was stolen from Serbs, Artsakh was Armenian land the was stolen from Armenians - that is the similarities between the two situations.

Armenians were lucky enough to liberate Artsakh with Russian and Diasporan help. Serbia lost Kosovo because its only ally in the region, Russia, was severely weakened by the late 90s and Serbia at the time was being run by a corrupt dictator and not united. As a result, the west, like a pack of hungry dogs, attacked Serbia and imposed their will. Eventually, the kaka is going to hit the fan and Serbia with strong Russian support will reclaim the stolen territories - and then you will see a "real" genocide of Albanians, not the BS stories of genocide that the western public was fed during the 90s.

This will not make sense to most of you but the current war in the Persian Gulf and Afghanistan, as well as the impending wars in Iran, the Caucasus, south America and Central Asia - are attempts by the west to undermine the Russian Federation and secure Chinese dependence.

wow! i'm shocked!!!!! albanians are racist towards orthodox christians????????????? how is that when 20% of the albanian population are orthodox christains!

and kosovo is serbian? what????? serbia only got hold of kosovo in 1912! because of the turks! have you ever wondered why most albs say its turks fault because of the war in kosova? i don't think so!

the serbs only came to kosovo during the 7th century!

we don't hate orthodox christians but we hate serbs because of what they did to albanians, even the christian albanians hate serbs. and quess what most christianalbanian are orthodox! but in kosovo most christain albanian are catholics! with a small protestant and orthodox community.

and if the albanian genocide never happened that that means that the armenian genocide never happened how do you like that. i'm not sayuing it didn't happen but can you explain those photos in google? and the serbs also did die but do you wanna know the problems with the serbs? they never should pictures of civilians buit pictures of soldiers obviously they're gonna die. becuase they fought in the war what do you expect!

and why you posting serbioan websites? obviously the serbs are gonna talk like that why can't you post english french german or italian website? but not serbain or albanian

and the only reason why you armenian are say kosovo is serbian is because of ignorance, it hte turkish thing. the serbs proplerly brainwashed you to think we are turks, i'm sorry but were not and if you called us turks i didn't think you'd wake ever again! the truth is we don't like both serbs and turks, but the turks are more friendly.

[kosovan_hun]

Re: Kosovo's Independence: Thorn on both sides?

HAS COLD WAR II COMMENCED?
By Vojin Joksimovich

Serbianna.com, MI

http://www.serbianna.com/columns/joksimovich/008.shtml

July 9 2007

Lectures

Vojin Joksimovich has served as the first Vice President of the San
Diego North County Chapter of the World Affairs Council in charge
of the program for the last three years. The Council meets weekly
on Thursdays throughout the year (about 50 sessions per year) and
covers a spectrum of foreign affairs subjects. The speakers are either
distinguished guests or members. On June 28, 2007 (the Vidovdan day)
a San Diego State University professor was supposed to address the
Council on the subject of Central Asia. He cancelled and Vojin proposed
instead, reflecting the outcome of the G-8 meeting in Germany, a debate
on the subject has Cold War II commenced? The Council accepted and the
debate was initiated by a three member panel of speakers addressing
the following subjects: (a) Missile shield in Poland and the Czech
Republic or Euro-ABM program; (b) Kosovo independence issue; and (c)
Other U.S./Russia hot issues as authored in an essay by the former
Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko published in the May/June
2007 issue of Foreign Affairs. The members participated in the second
part of the program. Vojin Joksimovich notes on the subject of Kosovo
independence are reproduced below.

Today marks the 618 anniversary of the Kosovo battle between the
Serbs and the Ottoman Empire; battle between Christianity and Islam
which led to the loss of Serbian sovereignty in 1463 and enabled the
Turks to march on to Budapest and Vienna. In 2007 we are experiencing
another Kosovo battle. This time the battle has been a diplomatic one
thus far. A battle between the U.S. and Serbia. The battle between
adherences to foundations of international law vs. force.

The Ottoman records of 1445 show that Kosovo & Metohija population
consisted almost exclusively of Serbs (~99%) as the Serbs started
populating Kosovo in the 6th century and created there the Serbian
kingdom and the Serbian holy land with some 1300 churches and
monasteries.

Over 5 centuries of Serb ethnic cleansing followed first by the
Ottomans, then Austro-Hungarian Empire, then Hitler-Mussolini Axis,
then communist dictator Tito and now U.S./NATO using Albanians as
their proxies.

Serb-Albanian conflict, which is almost 130 yrs old was reignited
in 1990s as the Islamist and U.S./NATO interests merged leading to
a jihad against the Serb-Orthodox Christians

In 1994 Osama bin Laden established a base in Albania after his
phenomenal success in Bosnia and started to arm and infiltrate
the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), which was then classified by the
State Department as terrorist organization. Subsequently the Western
intelligence agencies (CIA, MI6, and BND) joined in support of the
KLA. After the KLA insurrection from Albania was defeated by the
Serbian police, Clinton/Blair decided to go to war against Serbia
and in the process hijacked holocaust to wrest Kosovo from Serbia.

UN Resolution 1244 ended the war, created UN/NATO protectorate but
reaffirmed the commitment of member states to the sovereignty and
territorial integrity of Serbia.

After 8 years the UN/NATO protectorate has dismally failed (as
discussed in Peace at any Price: How the World Failed Kosovo by Iain
King and Whit Mason) and in the process grossly violated the UN 1244.

Having created a royal mess so called international community started
looking for the way out. A centerpiece of the program: human rights
eight point package ahead of status approach was jettisoned. In 2003,
a UN police spokesman said that Kosovo "is not a society affected by
organized crime, but a society founded on organized crime."

Former Finnish President, Marti Ahtisaari was appointed in 2005 as the
special UN envoy to "mediate" the interethnic conflict. He has been the
wrong man for the job from day one as illustrated with his statement
that Serbia must give in because it is guilty as a nation-nobody must
be allowed to pin a feeling of national guilt on any group of people
only individuals proclaimed by many including the ICTY. Recently BND
sent the documentation to the UN Secretary General accusing Ahtisaari
that he took the bribe from the Albanian mafia.

On March 26, 2007 Ahtisaari submitted a report to the UN Security
Council recommending Kosovo independence supervised by the EU with
continued presence of the NATO troops on the ground. In my humble
opinion, the Ahtisaari approach has been designed to shift the
intractable situation to somebody else and if it provokes either the
Serbs or Albanians, or both, so be it. Then they would be blamed for
the impending disaster. Turning water into wine is nothing compared
to transforming the republic of heroin, black hole of Europe, into a
model democratic multi-ethnic state. But that is the miracle Ahtisaari
has come up with.

The U.S./GB/France/Germany jumped on Ahtisaari recommendation and
drafted a UN resolution which would annul the UN 1244 and thus would
detach Kosovo from Serbia.

Serbia with help from resurgent Russia and some other countries
has opposed the Ahtisaari plan as well as the three drafts of the
Western sponsored UN resolution. In the second draft only a few
words were changed. The third draft filed on June 20 sponsored by the
U.S./UK/France proposed the postponement of supervised independence
for 120 days, this time would be given to the Serbian and Albanian
negotiators to reach an agreement with automatic imposition of the
Ahtisaari plan if the parties cannot agree. In Moscow and Belgrade the
third draft was dead on arrival. Russia opposes artificial deadlines
and automatism and Serbia is not interested in the negotiations
when the final outcome is predetermined and amounts to violation of
the UN charter and the Serbian constitution. Serbia is looking for
a sustainable solution. Imposed solution is not sustainable as it
would plant the seed for the next conflict.

Russia and Serbia, as well as a number of UN Security Council members
such as China, Indonesia and South Africa, believe that the rule
of law should be the keystone of the international order using WWII
experiences as an example. Kosovo independence established on the 15%
of the Republic of Serbia territory would violate the UN Charter,
Helsinki Accords, Badinter Commission and the UN 1244 as well as the
previous UN Kosovo resolutions. Kosovo independence would be the first
time in post WWII history that the boundaries of a nation state had
been drawn against its will. Why would the UN violate own Charter to
create the second Albanian state in Europe?

Russia and Serbia, as well as some neighboring countries, point out
that Kosovo independence would destabilize the region. Hence they
are looking for a sustainable solution which would preserve Serbia's
territorial integrity and sovereignty with everything else being
negotiable and subject to agreement between Belgrade and Pristina. A
Serbian plan is now in Putin's hand that supposedly he will put on the
table when he meets with President Bush on July 1&2 at Kennebunkport.

In addition Kosovo independence would establish a far-reaching
precedent for many separatists round the world. Why does Kosovo
deserve independence while South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transniestria
and Nagorno-Karabakh and others do not? The UN Resolution sponsors
make the case that Kosovo is a sui generis case using the argument
that Serbia has lost the right to rule the Kosovo because Milosevic's
regime opposed NATO and committed acts of ethnic cleansing. The ethnic
cleansing arguments stated are, by and large, based on half truth
and outright falsehoods. Besides the logic is that the history both
before Milosevic (millennium old) and after Milosevic does not count.

Indonesia, a Muslim country and a UN Security Council member, is
not sold on the Ahtisaari plan and the sui generis Kosovo case and
proposed that the Kosovo issue be deferred to the EU at the time when
the EU is ready to accept both Serbia and Kosovo as members.

For radical Islamists Kosovo represents a jihad. Why the US on one
hand is fighting jihadists in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere but is
in the business of creating the Islamist states in the Balkans is
paradoxical. Part of the "strategic concept" for dismemberment of
former Yugoslavia has been the appeasement of the Islamist world,
which started under president Bush 41 and then was embraced by
the Clinton administration and now by Bush 43. As early as 1992,
the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) demanded independence
for Bosnia and Kosovo and division of Macedonia. The U.S./NATO has
essentially complied with these wishes. Bush announced yesterday,
at the rededication ceremony of the Islamic Center of Washington DC,
that he will appoint a special U.S. envoy to the OIC. This speaker
considers the OIC to be Islaminterna analogous to what cominterna was.

Since announcement of the Ahtisaari plan I must have read over 100
columns and editorials on the subject. Here are some headlines:
"Russia still opposed, Russia digs in heels, and Russia refuses
to budge." After exercises in bullying these articles ad nauseam
reiterated that Russia was supporting its co-religionist and Slavic
historic ally. There was hardly any appreciation that Yeltsin's Russia
is history and resurgent Putin's Russia is the reality. Kosovo was
one of the reasons why Yeltsin had to go. Here is what Putin said in
Zagreb and Istanbul this weekend at the Balkans Energy Summit and the
Black Sea Economic Cooperation Organization meetings: "The Balkans and
the Black Sea have always been a sphere of our special interests and
it is natural a resurgent Russia is returning here." If Putin gave in
on Kosovo his efforts to re-establish Russia as a great power would
be severely undermined.

Last week in Washington we witnessed a heated exchange on Kosovo issue
between members of the Russian Duma Foreign Relations committee and
their U.S. colleagues. Natalia Narochnitskaya, a Russian lawmaker,
made a strong case against independence while Congressmen Lantos
and Engel, long-time advocates of Kosovo independence and major
recipients of contributions from the Albanian lobby, threatened that
the UN might be bypassed in case of a Russian veto, and that Kosovo
could unilaterally declare independence. They went as far as claiming
that the U.S. would recognize Kosovo next day after declaration of
independence and even to be followed by the EU members. However,
the EU ministers have reiterated again this week their support for
a UN resolution but will not back unilateral declaration as it would
divide the EU like the Iraq war did.

Some expect much in the way of compromise from the Bush/Putin
meeting this coming weekend. I am personally skeptical especially
after reading the statement from the American ambassador to Serbia:
"We believe that a compromise has already been achieved."

I will conclude with an analogy between Kosovo and the U.S. Southwest
where we live. If Bush were to deliver 15% of the Serbian territory to
Kosovo Albanians, who had never owned Kosovo, he would then establish
a precedent for the return of the U.S. Southwest to Mexico. There
are numerous organizations which are attempting to annex California,
Arizona, New Mexico, Texas plus Southern Colorado to create "Republica
Del Norte."

why post serbian website, me i would never use serbian website, and let me tell you this i would never use albanian website in kosovos history story

the same goes with the armenian genocide i would never use turkish or armenain website

because i know that these people will each have something to deny or lie about

omg albanian worked with jahid! wow i'm sorry but i'm albanian and muslim (but i never call my self muslim, becuase religion is something i keep inside me) and as far as i know most albanian HAAAAATE arabs, and the truth is we have mixed feeling for the turks, but most of the time we tend to HATE them because of our history with them and the turks deny that the killed albs, , but do you wanna know what the problem with turks are they're friendly!

so no offence i think you should stop using serbian website and please don't use albanian websites either but use website who are no serbain no albanian to get the right information

i would do the same for the armenian genocide i would use no turkish and no armenian website to find the right information

[Armenian]

Re: Kosovo's Independence: Thorn on both sides?

Enker Armenian, I for one am interested, can you expand your thoughts please.

Which thoughts in particular?

[melikianAvak]

Re: Kosovo's Independence: Thorn on both sides?

Which thoughts in particular?

"This will not make sense to most of you but the current war in [COLOR="Red"]the Persian Gulf and Afghanistan, as well as the impending wars in Iran, the Caucasus, south America and Central Asia - are attempts by the west to undermine the Russian Federation and secure Chinese dependence."[/COLOR

************************************************** *
Enker Armenian

China -- So. America -- Russia. and all of the above.

According to the American War College, 90 some percent of their efforts are on the coming war with China. In the next twenty years. Most Americans seemed surprised when I mention this. I got it from a CSPAN interview with one of the heads of the War College late one night.

Your thoughts seen to differ from much of the news. I am interested in different points of view and yours are interesting.

Respectfully

Avak

[Armenian]

Re: Kosovo's Independence: Thorn on both sides?

Greetings enker,

According to the American War College, 90 some percent of their efforts are on the coming war with China. In the next twenty years. Most Americans seemed surprised when I mention this. I got it from a CSPAN interview with one of the heads of the War College late one night.

The US is preparing for a conflict with China over Taiwan. Its quite obvious that China is going to make a move on Taiwan eventually. That move will herald China's entrance into global politics. When that day comes the US will have to react somehow. I don't know what Washington DC will do, nor do I know if there is anything that they can do. Nonetheless, China is preparing diligently for that operation. And when that day comes no power on earth will be able to stop them. Putting Taiwan aside, however, for the US and Europe, China is not a longterm strategic threat primarily because the massive Chinese economy survives due to its trade with the US and Europe. Also, China is extremely dependent upon foreign energy. As a result, the West feels like it can tame or control Chinese politics somewhat.

Russia on the other hand is very different. Like China, Russia has a very large and capable military. Like China, Russia is enjoying massive economic growth. However, unlike China, Russia is not dependent upon trade with the west to survive. As a matter of fact, further prosperity for the Russian Federation puts policy makers in Moscow in direct conflict with the west. In other words, in order for Russia is go forward as a nation, it will have to come at the expense of the West - and the West knows this well. That is why NATO has been trying desperately for the last fifteen years to minimize Russian influence within the European region - ie NATO expansion, attack on pro-Russian Serbia, independence for Kosovo, promoting revolution in the Ukraine and Georgia, supporting Chechen insurgency, etc...

Liek I said, the West's greatest fear today is the reemergence of Russian power.

The greatest problem for the West is the fact that Russia, as a nation state, is self-sufficient to a large extent thanks to its vast natural resources and strategic geographic positioning. Thus, theoretically Russia can't be blackmailed economically, nor can Russia be scared militarily. Thus, in addition to NATOs anti-Russian policies, for the past fifteen years the West has been trying very hard via NGOs, corrupt businessmen, international institutions, etc, to cause public unrest within the Russian Federation. In short, the West fears the potential of Russia much more that it fears China. In order to be proactive in the region, the US has even created a phantom "Al-Qaeda" threat to pull itself into the sensitive Persian Gulf and Central Asia in order to compete with and undermine Russian influence there.

The above would make more sense if you take into consideration the real possibility that a potential geostrategic union between Russia, Iran and China could cause havoc within economic and political circles within the west. Thus, for the West, the best thing to do is to go in and stop it before it takes shape. Obviously this is a very complicated matter, as such, there are many other factors within these formulations as well, such as the dreaded J-ewish lobby.

Your thoughts seen to differ from much of the news.

And you are surprised? The so-called "news" in the US is basically what certain special interest groups want you to see and hear. Actually the news services here are more concerned with "entertaining" the public than providing it with news per say. Before I start discussing this topic further just read the following articles first if you have not done so already:

The Real Enemy of Russia is the West: http://forum.armenianclub.com/showpo...&postcount=150

The impending clash with Russia: http://forum.armenianclub.com/showpo...&postcount=218

Who Lost Russia: http://forum.armenianclub.com/showpo...&postcount=198

China Backs Iran Against The Great Satan: http://forum.armenianclub.com/showpo...&postcount=140

Hunting the Russian Bear Why they're after Putin: http://forum.armenianclub.com/showpo...&postcount=210

[sirius1234]

Re: Kosovo's Independence: Thorn on both sides?

Stop talking stupid, the people in Washington DC that want "independence" for Kosovo are the same ones who want Artsakh to be given to Azeris.

Kosovo was Serbian land that was stolen from Serbs, Artsakh was Armenian land the was stolen from Armenians - that is the similarities between the two situations.

What a bunch of lies, Kosovo is an Albanian land, it is 90% Albanian. Just because Serbia annexed it from the Ottoman Empire after the Balkanic War of 1912, doesn't mean its original inhabitants are the Serbs. Kosovars will choose the destiny they want, and most of them want independence.

kosovan_hun

I have read some of your comments, that I find sad. I am myself of Arab ancestry, and I have plenty of Albanian and Bosniak friends, so please do not generalise your own racist feelings to the whole population of Albania, you give it a bad image. Thank you

[ottomans]

Re: Kosovo's Independence: Thorn on both sides?

why post serbian website, me i would never use serbian website, and let me tell you this i would never use albanian website in kosovos history story

the same goes with the armenian genocide i would never use turkish or armenain website

because i know that these people will each have something to deny or lie about

omg albanian worked with jahid! wow i'm sorry but i'm albanian and muslim (but i never call my self muslim, becuase religion is something i keep inside me) and as far as i know most albanian HAAAAATE arabs, and the truth is we have mixed feeling for the turks, but most of the time we tend to HATE them because of our history with them and the turks deny that the killed albs, , but do you wanna know what the problem with turks are they're friendly!

so no offence i think you should stop using serbian website and please don't use albanian websites either but use website who are no serbain no albanian to get the right information

i would do the same for the armenian genocide i would use no turkish and no armenian website to find the right information

Yes,we are very friendly!you are rightful,but I am suprised why did you compare us with sirbians! You were our citiezen many centries! We like Albanians!And we never consider negative about Albanians! We kept you from unjusts! We had made war of Kosava! But it was a war...Many innocent humen died...But after that Turk and Albanians not fought again! we were ally!And today too and I wish for future Your people are Turcopihill and we see your people as a brother! Kosovo grounds belong to your people!It does not belongs Sirbians! I am a Turk and I am Ottomans' grandchild ! So I know very well than others! We have Ottoman archives about that problem! But Albanians have to happen to think of using that real archives,They are kept in museams in İstanbul
By the way All of Ottoman sultans were not Turk! End the all of army too! They were picking from other nations(Armenians,Sirbians,Croatians,Greeks Russians...)They behaved equal! Also Ottoman Empire invested Balkains,North Africa,Arabian lands! They not invested Anatolia! (only Istanbul,Bursa,Amasya were excluded,there are some mosques today...) For Examle Mostar bridge is our art building!...

We hate Araps people too! But not African Araps!(Iraq,Suudi Arabia,qatar..etc)

[sirius1234]

Re: Kosovo's Independence: Thorn on both sides?

Ottomans

We hate Araps people too! But not African Araps!(Iraq,Suudi Arabia,qatar..etc)

North-African Arabs are the same as Asian Arabs, no differences. By the way, you do not seem to be a hateful person...

[ottomans]

Re: Kosovo's Independence: Thorn on both sides?

Ottomans



North-African Arabs are the same as Asian Arabs, no differences. By the way, you do not seem to be a hateful person...

They are same I know! But Iraq,Syria Arabs betrayed Ottoman Islam caliph! They and Englishmen killed more than 50.000 Turkish soldiers at the Hejaz,Yemen,Syria and Iraq fronts....But Mebusan the Ottoman Parliament was decided to give their freedom after the world war!we decidedBut our Arap brothers helped our enemies! My grandfather's father died while serving the Ottoman state! Today Palestine,Lebanon,Iraq people not happy! They were happy in Ottoman age! They are paying with troubles from Israil,and western armies

[sirius1234]

Re: Kosovo's Independence: Thorn on both sides?

Ottomans

They are same I know! But Iraq,Syria Arabs betrayed Ottoman Islam caliph! They and Englishmen killed more than 50.000 Turkish soldiers at the Hejaz,Yemen,Syria and Iraq fronts....But Mebusan the Ottoman Parliament was decided to give their freedom after the world war!we decidedBut our Arap brothers helped our enemies! My grandfather's father died while serving the Ottoman state! Today Palestine,Lebanon,Iraq people not happy! They were happy in Ottoman age! They are paying with troubles from Israil,and western armies

They did not betray Ottomans, Ottomans were occupiers on the Arab homeland and Arabs were not happy and did not consider themselves to be Ottoman citizens, that is why they kicked them out to free the Levant, Mesopotamia, and the Arabian peninsula.

Seljuk Turks had already agressed Arabs and captured Palestine (and huge parts of the Arab lands) until the Crusaders defeated them and took Palestine from them, and then massacred hundreds of thousands of Arabs because Turks had weakened them. Arabs then succeed to push the invading Crusaders out, but Turks attacked them again in the 16th century, and were driven out of the Arab Orient in the 19th and 20th centuries...

All those facts belong to the past, it is senseless to hate Arabs for what their forfathers did or didn't do decades ago.

Also, I recall you prophet Muhammad was an Arab, and all the prophets of the Quran were the ancestors of the Palestinians.

Abraham himself was the ancestor of both Palestinians and the Arab tribes of the Northern part of the Arabian peninsula

Not to mention Islam's sacred language is Arabic, same for its script. Also, the Arabian peninsula, Palestine, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, and Syria, are the Holy Lands of the Islamic religion, where all the prophetes of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, were born and raised.

Finally, that was the Arabs who brought Islam to the Turks