Elections in Armenia

[Haykakan]

Re: Elections in Armenia

While visiting Armenia once is hardly a base for the conclusions you have drawn-at least unlike most people on this forum you actually have set foot in Hayastan. Why is it insufficient to draw conclusions from one visit? Because the pace of change in Armenia is blinding fast (in Yerevan anyways). You would have a hard time recognizing the various parts of the city since your last visit. As for excuses -yes the government will at times use these excuses to cover up its own ineptitude and corruption but these excuses are very real and very serious problems which just by themselves are enough to topple many countries. The threat of war alone is huge-imagine that you are a parent (maybe you are a perant and dont need to imagine as much). Imagine sending a son you have spent 20 years raising off to the fron-not knowing if you will see him again. Imagine living next door to not one but two countries who just wait for the opportunity to kill everyone including you the first chance they get. Imagine being in a city as it is being shelled by artillery and not knowing if that last boom was the last thing you will ever hear. The blockade-imagine making 20 times less money then you now make while the price of everything you need increases. Imagine you have to fly to Detroit from LA but you can only fly west. Can all these issues be overcomed-sure i guess its possible-is this the kind of conditions you would expect any nation to flurish under? Hell no! So why your double standard for Armenia? What makes Armenia superhuman in you mind? The corruption you speak of exists not only in Armenia and Russia-wake up and smell the special interest groups. There is nothing shameful with Armenia nor its people. We have survived far longer then most civilizations and have endured far greater hardships along the way-not many nations can say these things. Armenia has a lot of problems and government corruption is just one of many of these problems.

Those are still just excuses. The blockade and threat of war make things difficult but not impossible. Nor does it justify the deeply entrenched culture of bribery and corruption. I haven't lived in Armenia but I visited during the Kocharian period and my views slowly started to change after that. Before my visit I was an Armenian flag-waving reactionary like Vahram.

I want what's best for Armenia and for the diaspora. Of course I understand that Armenia can't rely on its own military and has to have Russia defend its borders.* It's pretty shameful but I can understand why that's the way things are. That doesn't mean I can't criticize the Armenian or Russian government(s) and their political leaders. Or American political leaders, for that matter.

The reason I am not completely pessimistic about the closed borders is because of the IT field and information-based services, which the Armenian government has been investing in (with plenty of diasporan assistance, of course). It allows for a lot of business to be conducted over the Internet, thereby circumventing borders. I'm hoping that the generation being groomed by some of these new institutions (TUMO, Ayb) will bring about change and prosperity for all Armenians.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Elections in Armenia

Imagine sending a son you have spent 20 years raising off to the fron-not knowing if you will see him again.

More Armenians die by jumping from the Hrazdan gorge's "Suicide Bridges" than die from any front-line Azeri shooting.

[Haykakan]

Re: Elections in Armenia

More American soldiers commit suicide then killed in combat - and this is during wartime so what is your point? Again and again you bring up issues which exist everywhere yet you try to imply that these are issues which only plague Armenia and armenians. I know you are aware of the fact that you are always bringing examples of problems which exist everywhere but you imply that these are "armenian problems". Why do you do this bell?

More Armenians die by jumping from the Hrazdan gorge's "Suicide Bridges" than die from any front-line Azeri shooting.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Elections in Armenia

POLITICAL TUG-OF-WAR IN ARMENIA

http://www.mirrorspectator.com/2013/04/04/political-tug-of-war-in-armenia/

EDITORIAL | APRIL 4, 2013 12:41 PM

By Edmond Y. Azadian

The outcome of the February 18 presidential election is still
in dispute. The founder and leader of the Heritage Party, Raffi
Hovannisian, continues to challenge the election results. To dramatize
his campaign, he has resorted to his traditional tactics, namely a
hunger strike.

For a long time, he was not clear on why he had chosen that particular
kind of protest, to what end or when he would end the hunger strike.

But finally, during Holy Week, he made it clear that his hunger strike
would end on Easter Sunday, when he would attend church services with
his family. Therefore, as we go to press, Mr. Hovannisian has resumed
his food intake to intensify his campaign.

His contention is that President Serge Sargisian's reelection was
flawed, therefore, he has to transfer power to Hovannisian, or rather
to "the people." He has equated himself with the people, which may
be interpreted in two ways: either he is very humble to claim victory
on behalf of the people or he is conceited enough to think he is the
only candidate who can speak on behalf of the people.

Politics abhors a vacuum. When former president Levon Ter-Petrosian's
HAK coalition lost its position as a viable opposition force, all of
the discontented groups rallied around Hovannisian.

As a populist politician, he is conducting a very flexible campaign,
having carefully studied the underlying reasons which led to
Ter-Petrosian's failure. The former president had cobbled together
a coalition of 18 discontented groups with different ideologies and
interests. He had rallied those groups around some maximalist demands.

The ultimate goal of HAK (Armenian National Congress) was to
"dismantle" the "kleptocracy." He never budged from his extremist
position. Additionally, his subordinates used abrasive language, while
he was continuing it in his professorial rhetoric. He has tolerated or
even encouraged his supporters in the media to poison the political
atmosphere to the point of no return. He did not allow any room for
rapprochement or compromise with the authorities, who continued to
ignore him, while undermining his coalition in an underhanded way.

Eventually HAK disintegrated and its die-hard disciplinarians were
rewarded with six seats in the 131member parliament to become a
negligible opposition faction.

On the other hand, Hovannisian has been conducting his campaign on
a more civilized level, some ultimatums not withstanding. He also
began with maximalist demands, asking the reelected president to show
up at Liberty Square - where he has set up shop - and turn over the
presidency to him.

He soon realized the satirical parameters to his demand and he
toned down his rhetoric; actually, he took the time to show up at
the presidential palace to have a very courteous exchange of ideas
with Sargisian.

It looks like the president's entourage has determined to kill the
opposition leader with kindness. Any aggressive demand is met by the
administration's very tolerant approach.

As a shrewd politician, Hovannisian realizes the president's
patronizing approach to his demands are playing into the hands of the
administration, especially in the eyes of the international political
community, for whom his public discourse seems to be intended.

Epistolary demands are being exchanged between the two parties. The
original demands of the Heritage leader - outright surrender of power
- are being watered down. The demand to open the ballot boxes for a
recount was presented after the deadline without legal due diligence
for which Hovannisian has apologized.

His demand for early parliamentary elections in a new format was turned
down. Also his demand to punish five regional governors was ignored.

He realized that his maximalist position has been eroding. Therefore,
he has already come to a turning point - either power surrender
or power sharing - and since the first alternative does not seem
realistic, he is opting for the second one.

The administration is well disposed to power sharing, but not on
the terms that the opposition has been demanding. It looks as if the
political power play is entering into a period of horse-trading, which
could wear down the parties and take the wind out of Hovannisian's
sails.

Throughout this game, Hovannisian is proving to be an effective
and prudent tactician, with his sights set on the next presidential
election, five years down the road.

In the meantime, upcoming Yerevan municipal elections will provide a
real opportunity for Mr. Hovannisian to make his mark on the political
scene, especially when five other parties will be clamoring for
victory in those elections.

Should the Heritage Party achieve some impressive results, Hovannisian
will stay a major player for the long haul.

Hovannisian empowered the young and educated masses. Even if he
cannot achieve his goal in the immediate future, he will be credited
with introducing a new political culture, which in time may yield
quantitative results.

He is also mindful of what degree of power sharing he may achieve.

Should he settle for some face-saving positions for himself and his
party members in Armenia's power structure, he will deny Armenia's
political system the benefit of credible opposition.

At this time, the tug-of-war is continuing, hopefully with some
positive outcome for Armenia.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Elections in Armenia

More American soldiers commit suicide then killed in combat - and this is during wartime so what is your point? Again and again you bring up issues which exist everywhere yet you try to imply that these are issues which only plague Armenia and armenians. I know you are aware of the fact that you are always bringing examples of problems which exist everywhere but you imply that these are "armenian problems". Why do you do this bell?

This might be a really horrible shock to you, so sit down and take the startling news: this is in a forum whose section is titled Armenian Discussions, and is in a subsection titled Armenian Politics, and is in a thread about Armenian Elections. If you want to discuss problems that exist everywhere, go discuss it elsewhere. Or do you want to appear to be like our resident off-topic poster with his Jooz and Glues?

You excuse for doing NOTHING about Armenia's ills basically goes like "everything is either completely out of our control, so we can't fix it, or is so specific to Armenia that it is not possible to fix it, or is found everywhere so why try to fix it". Is your response to dozens of people jumping off a bridge each year because their lives are so full of despair just an "it happens everywhere" shrug? Hundreds of thousands whose lives were so full of depair that they had to leave their country didn't leave because of a fear of Azeri bullets or any of your other reasons, they left because of the failed system you appear to want to maintain.

[Haykakan]

Re: Elections in Armenia

I tire of the cat and the others who see only what they want to see or want you to see only what they want you to see. Never close your eyes and always stay vigilant because the attacks on the armenian nation are not imaginery nor are they forms of conspiracy theories dreamed up by paranoid delusional people. We have many powerful enemies who use various means to try and destroy us and this is a proven fact not paranoia. As for mr bell - just chek out his posts-he says we should forget about our history for it is not relevant anymore, he tries to discredit my arguments by posting quotes which i never made or uses them out of context (typical loser comebacks). As i have stated many times before - Armenia needs change it needs far greater change then diasporans or mr bell will be comfortable with but the kind of change the likes of Raffi bring to the table is empty, hollow at best and catastropic and dangersous at worst. If you want change then make it a real change which addresses real issues in a meaningfull way not by making retarded demands based on nothingness. People do not seem to realize that change can go either way-change can be good or bad. Change based on a loud mouth with no content or ideas will invariably bring change for the worst. Change based on solid planning with a focus on betterment of society will bring about good change. Even the most rabid supporters of Raffi cannot deny that he has no plan to build a nation nor to make peoples lives better off. There is nothing beyong screaming and ludicrous demands coming from his campaighn. If you think that the likes of Raffi are not dangerous then simply look at what happened in Georgia and Yukrain and ask if those people are better or worst off then they were before the colorful revolution brought on by western spies. These collor revolutions are bad but things can be far worst - just look at what is happening in Syria today. You think Syria would be tearing itself apart today if USA Turkey Isreal Saudi Arabia the Gulf States did not interfere with it? If you think this cannot happen in Armenia then you are dead wrong. People will fight one another not just on the bases of religion or race but political differences as well. This kind of change which tears the country to shreds we do not need-what we need is planing with the wellfair of society as its main goal. Just look at the track record of the western backed revolutions/overthrows etc.. Is Afganastan better off today then before the war? How about Iraq? How about Syria? The last i cheked Georgia lost a lot of land and the Yukranians got rid of the colorful leader imposed on them by the west because they were crooks. Just look at what is going on - just because it is western it does not mean that it is good. Those who have read my posts know well that i state that we have much to learn from the west and that i value many western ideals and consepts but this does not mean we should bend over everytime the west wants us to. Hey diasporans if it is change you want how about you buy a ticket and fly to Armenia for a change-how about you plan on doing something constructive for your people for a change- how about you forget about your cheap ass and let the guy selling you stuff in Armenia keep the change- change change change you sound like a xxxxin begger. You want change then go make the change but not the bs crap like full of hot air Raffi but meaningful change that actually does good for someone.

[Lernakan]

Re: Elections in Armenia

Change based on solid planning with a focus on betterment of society will bring about good change.

Exactly! If there are going to be positive it has to come from within and it should come as a result of a natural evolution rather than a "barevolution". Revolutions won't help us, if anything we will be thrown back a few decades instead of advancing. How can I so confidently say this? Because I'm familiar (as you are) with the revolutions that swept across our region for the last decade (or even decades in the case of Iran) and the results they brought.

First of all the mentality of our people has to change as I have mentioned earlier. The mentality now in Armenia is that the government has to do all the work, the government is responsible for everything and anything and should provide for everyone. This just doesn't work with capitalism....I'll be the first one to acknowledge the shortcomings of our government or our President for that matter but to blame them for all the misfortunes befalling our people is very shortsighted to say the least.
These people who are so quick to complain about everything should first start by looking at themselves. Just an example, if you enter the appartment blocks in Yerevan most of the time you'll see a very dirty, broken down staircase with so much dust on it that you wouldn't think it would be possible to collect even if nobody touched it from the middle ages. Than you enter the house of one of the residents and it's as clean and new as it can get....now what I want to say with this example is that these people only feel responsibility when it concerns their own property. I mean how hard can it be to get together with some neighbours and decide that once a week one of them will just clean the dust from the staircases....or you have some streets with huge holes in the driveway right in front of their homes. How hard can it be to fill those holes with some sand or stones from the street? That doesn't even cost a thing, but nobody will care to take some action, no they'll wait for the government to take care of it even though it means that they have to drive around the hole everyday and the danger of their kids hurting themselves there while playing. I always remind myself of Kennedy's quote when I witness those things "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country".

I've witnessed this same egoism when discussing the situation in Armenia with people who are actually well of but are still dissatisfied and would even vote for levon to express their dissatisfaction. These people like I said were well off, they would even go on holidays for two or three times a year and I don't mean a cheap vacations in georgia or turkey. No, I mean holidays in Italy, Greece, Spain, France etc. but what I found out from my discussions with these people was that they actually didn't care for the country or their childrens future for that matter. The only thing that made them complain was that they weren't the ones driving the fancy Bentley's and Hummers or living in of those mansions in Yerevan. That was their only concern and their only reason for being dissatisfied. Though they wouldn't say this explicitly if you kept asking the right questions this would be your obvious conclusion.

But I'm sick and tired of these complaining idiots yes we have lot's of problems in Armenia and yes the goverment has failed in certain aspects but under the circumstances we are doing well and with a little effort by us all everything will turn out fine. Let's not forget that the government is only a reflection of its people lets change ourselves first before we demand a better government.

Even the most rabid supporters of Raffi cannot deny that he has no plan to build a nation nor to make peoples lives better off.

All raffik has are empty slogans and a team full of idiots. Luckily he hasn't been able to gather a large number of protesters, it's a very very small percentage of people that go out on the streets to support this charlatan. At this stage they are not dangerous to our national security but we have to prevent them from becoming bigger movements. I think that some pressure on the government is normal and should actually be welcomed since the government will be forced to work more efficiently but the pressure should come from genuine homegrown opposition parties and not by the likes of raffik.

Though raffik has criticised the U.S. for congratulating our President and it seems that the U.S. prefers our President (they always play both sides).
Its obvious that raffik carries a foreign agenda. He has repeatedly questioned our relationship with the Russian Federation.
He has repeatedly stated that we should demand the Russians to pay rent for the base in Gyumri. He is ignoring the fact that the only reason keeping our enemies from attacking is exactly because of the base in Gyumri, he ignores the fact that we receive "rent" by the weaponry we receive for cheap prices or even free of charge and also the gas that we buy at prices far below market-price. So is he really that blind to ignore these facts or does he just want to oust Russia (first starting by demanding rent and afterwards demand more and more and if they refuse ask them to leave) for other obvious reasons?

I'm going on too long and have spend more time here than I would like. All I wanted to say was that I enjoy reading your posts and if you have the time please delete some messages from your inbox.

[Hakob]

Re: Elections in Armenia

Haykakan jan,

I was very busy these few days so I wasn't able to read what was going on here but I caught up tonight. As always I enjoyed reading your last posts (and Siggie's hilarious post protecting her favourite pet), can you please clean up your inbox? I tried sending you a PM but it says that your inbox is full. I would like to receive your paper on the closed border.




Exactly! If there are going to be positive it has to come from within and it should come as a result of a natural evolution rather than a "barevolution". Revolutions won't help us, if anything we will be thrown back a few decades instead of advancing. How can I so confidently say this? Because I'm familiar (as you are) with the revolutions that swept across our region for the last decade (or even decades in the case of Iran) and the results they brought.

First of all the mentality of our people has to change as I have mentioned earlier. The mentality now in Armenia is that the government has to do all the work, the government is responsible for everything and anything and should provide for everyone. This just doesn't work with capitalism....I'll be the first one to acknowledge the shortcomings of our government or our President for that matter but to blame them for all the misfortunes befalling our people is very shortsighted to say the least.
These people who are so quick to complain about everything should first start by looking at themselves. Just an example, if you enter the appartment blocks in Yerevan most of the time you'll see a very dirty, broken down staircase with so much dust on it that you wouldn't think it would be possible to collect even if nobody touched it from the middle ages. Than you enter the house of one of the residents and it's as clean and new as it can get....now what I want to say with this example is that these people only feel responsibility when it concerns their own property. I mean how hard can it be to get together with some neighbours and decide that once a week one of them will just clean the dust from the staircases....or you have some streets with huge holes in the driveway right in front of their homes. How hard can it be to fill those holes with some sand or stones from the street? That doesn't even cost a thing, but nobody will care to take some action, no they'll wait for the government to take care of it even though it means that they have to drive around the hole everyday and the danger of their kids hurting themselves there while playing. I always remind myself of Kennedy's quote when I witness those things "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country".

I've witnessed this same egoism when discussing the situation in Armenia with people who are actually well of but are still dissatisfied and would even vote for levon to express their dissatisfaction. These people like I said were well off, they would even go on holidays for two or three times a year and I don't mean a cheap vacations in georgia or turkey. No, I mean holidays in Italy, Greece, Spain, France etc. but what I found out from my discussions with these people was that they actually didn't care for the country or their childrens future for that matter. The only thing that made them complain was that they weren't the ones driving the fancy Bentley's and Hummers or living in of those mansions in Yerevan. That was their only concern and their only reason for being dissatisfied. Though they wouldn't say this explicitly if you kept asking the right questions this would be your obvious conclusion.

But I'm sick and tired of these complaining idiots yes we have lot's of problems in Armenia and yes the goverment has failed in certain aspects but under the circumstances we are doing well and with a little effort by us all everything will turn out fine. Let's not forget that the government is only a reflection of its people lets change ourselves first before we demand a better government.




All raffik has are empty slogans and a team full of idiots. Luckily he hasn't been able to gather a large number of protesters, it's a very very small percentage of people that go out on the streets to support this charlatan. At this stage they are not dangerous to our national security but we have to prevent them from becoming bigger movements. I think that some pressure on the government is normal and should actually be welcomed since the government will be forced to work more efficiently but the pressure should come from genuine homegrown opposition parties and not by the likes of raffik.

Though raffik has criticised the U.S. for congratulating our President and it seems that the U.S. prefers our President (they always play both sides).
Its obvious that raffik carries a foreign agenda. He has repeatedly questioned our relationship with the Russian Federation.
He has repeatedly stated that we should demand the Russians to pay rent for the base in Gyumri. He is ignoring the fact that the only reason keeping our enemies from attacking is exactly because of the base in Gyumri, he ignores the fact that we receive "rent" by the weaponry we receive for cheap prices or even free of charge and also the gas that we buy at prices far below market-price. So is he really that blind to ignore these facts or does he just want to oust Russia (first starting by demanding rent and afterwards demand more and more and if they refuse ask them to leave) for other obvious reasons?

I'm going on too long and have spend more time here than I would like. All I wanted to say was that I enjoy reading your posts and if you have the time please delete some messages from your inbox.

Lernakan
I have the same thoughts, You are 100% right. You talk about things that brings discomfort, but is the thruth. It's painfull...
I was born there, i know. I had the same psichology. 33 years in USA, changed, opened up my eyes. Now, I try to tell the same thing, but it's very hard. People there just can't understand. This is a generation of 70 years communism. It has a twisted, flawed sence of individual civyl responcibility and morals. The sistem supressed it for so long that it mutated into unsatisfiable, ever hungry emptiness...
We must go. This generation must die out, dissapear. We, and our suffering should be living only in Armenian history books.
Hope that, some balanced new generation can replace us. Hope, that new generation will be able build over our ashes(which will stay toxic for long time).

[Hakob]

Re: Elections in Armenia

OK only if you finish who is on your list!

Please finish this list when you sober up!

Sober up?????
What do you mean, "Sober up".
I am sober. Are you?
I don't know what list are you talking about. But I was talking about generation that grew up under soviet sistem. I am not going to describe what that sistem did, everibody knows very well.
But the connection of what is happening in armenia, (I am talking about laziness, fraud, odaramolutyun, nonfunctioning society, elections and people who can't stop complaining about anything and everything), and the communist legacy, is our main problem.
And this is typical in all post soviet countries.
I think that we got as good of government as we are. Communizm was also our job.
People over there have to stop and take responcibility for their situation, and realise that any kind of revolution can only bring worse. Past ones show this clealry. When people change and start thinking of trying to be better person and make the best or achieve the best possible in any condition, with dignity, real values and respect, they will have better governments and living conditions. This is how the capitalism, which they wanted, works.
For 70 years there was nothing but government in anything. As an individual, you did not matter. Your actions, or values did not amount to anything for your situation. You could be working very hard or just sat and spent your days, your life would be the same.
Actually, the ones, who got into party and stole, lived much better and with more respect.
This is why, an Armenian citizen will sell his vote for $15, then go to Azatutyan Hraparak and protest elections, without reflecting that his actions are what makes the diffrence, not who is the president.
The change I want to see, needs generation to change.
Now Vahram jan, does this make a list?

[Haykakan]

Re: Elections in Armenia

Cleared my inbox-i did not realize i had so many pms. I do not like to blame people for things they cannot control. The diasporans cannot be blamed for thinking like they do because that is what they grew up in. The same applies to hayastantsis because they are both products of their environments. What bothers me is when people do not listen to reason nor bother thinking about things but simply repeat what someone once told them without ever questioning it. We as human beings have heads which have brains. The brain is there for a reason. When i visit hayastan i like to talk to young people who show no shortage of liveliness and the desire to learn. They have misconceptions but i see it as my duty as their elder to educate them and make them aware of the misconceptions. Anytime you can get a young person to think you are doing something useful. I do the same here in the diaspora and there are plenty of good young people here as well. Both sides are filled with the misconceptions. pessimisms and the ignorence of their parents but you can make many of them think for themselves. Not all people want to think because it is hard and it leads to facing things perhaps dark things on a personal level. People will not listen to you if they do not respect you so you must earn respect and trust and then they will open up their hearts and their minds to you. It is hard at times to earn respect because our youngsters on both sides of the ocean are filled with terrible values and they may not value what you have to offer so it takes time. The one thing that everyone values is love-if you show that you care about the young people and their future then you will gain their respect regardless of what values they have been stamped with. Do not write off a whole generation we as a people cannot afford that.