Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

[Armanen]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

I think if the economy were better and corruption lower in the government than we would see higher repatriation than if just one of the two factors were in place. They are not mutually exclusive factors, and both are essential to having a truly prosperous Armenia.

[Haykakan]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

I think if the economy were better and corruption lower in the government than we would see higher repatriation than if just one of the two factors were in place. They are not mutually exclusive factors, and both are essential to having a truly prosperous Armenia.

I agree they are not mutualy exclusive but the economic factor far outweighs any other factor in determining emmigration/immigration rates.

[Catharsis]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

I have really looked into it and morality or the lack there of is not why people leave Hayastan nor why people do not repatriate. It has everything to do with making a living-economics.

It is tied together, if you do not have a country where the Law reigns supreme and cronyism is rampant you cannot develop in any sectors - including the economy.

Capitolist systems are inherantly immoral because they place value on money and capitol instead of people.

Perhaps, but we do not even have a capitalist model functioning properly, since the oligarchic establishment holds several monopolies in a number of spheres which significantly inhibit real free market development.

A good way to debunk the argument that morality has something to do with the emmigration would be the scenerio where lets say that by some means the government of Armenia became very moral and decided not to sign the protocals because they are "immoral" thus keeping Armenia in a permanent state of isolation and poor economic shape, will this help the emmigration/immigration problem? Of course not.

There is so much to say here. First of all there ARE pre-conditions in the protocols (and Serzh IS simply lying when he says otherwise) set forth by the Turkish side (recognizing the borders, commission to study the genocide, Turkish stipulation on Artsakh settlement and several others).

Secondly, Armenia will not benefit economically from the border opening, since Armenia would be flooded by cheap Turkish goods (as it already has) and we simply do not have ANY product that can compete with Turkish goods. Go to any store in Yerevan and you will see this is the case. There are simply no equivalent formula when it comes to Turkey. The Turkish flood will bury the Armenian farmer also, since the Turks have a cheap labor force especially in the agricultural sector. The oligarchs have another thing coming if they think they can sell things like cheap candy in the Turkish markets.

Lets say the "immoral" signing of the protocals produces open borders which will unquestionably help the economy, now will this help the emmigration/immigration issue? Of course it will. Morality and economics often run counter to each other thus claiming morality will reverse the emmigration trends which are based on economics is innacurate to put it mildly. One could actually make the argument that morality and economics are inversly related and that would actually be a stronger argument then the one you are presenting.

We are going to lose both (as what is left of Armenians in Armenia are directly threatened), in fact if we had a moral fortitude we would never even enter such negotiations with our mortal enemy. Remember the "border" was closed in 1993 by Turkey in order to complete the choke-hold of Armenia when we were winning in the Artsakh liberation war. They closed it, and they should open it if they have decided to END THE ILLEGAL BLOCKADE. Why should Armenia sign ANYTHING and sacrifice our historic rights in all of this?

Once again we are returning to the lack of moral fortitude on the part of 'our' government in all of this.

Not to mention the fact that hardly anyone raised the question that what Turkey has done (blockading Armenia for more than 16 years) is illegal under international law and they should actually pay reparations in the billions of dollars just for this gross violation alone.

[Anoush]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

Perhaps, but we do not even have a capitalist model functioning properly, since the oligarchic establishment holds several monopolies in a number of spheres which significantly inhibit real free market development.

Agreed. Not only that but whatever monies they make out of the Armenian state they take it out to Dubai or to Europe just in case one day there may be coup-detat and they will not reign anymore. It's only for them and them alone. Very unpatriotic and selfish.

There is so much to say here. First of all there ARE pre-conditions in the protocols (and Serzh IS simply lying when he says otherwise) set forth by the Turkish side (recognizing the borders, commission to study the genocide, Turkish stipulation on Artsakh settlement and several others).

Secondly, Armenia will not benefit economically from the border opening, since Armenia would be flooded by cheap Turkish goods (as it already has) and we simply do not have ANY product that can compete with Turkish goods. Go to any store in Yerevan and you will see this is the case. There are simply no equivalent formula when it comes to Turkey. The Turkish flood will bury the Armenian farmer also, since the Turks have a cheap labor force especially in the agricultural sector. The oligarchs have another thing coming if they think they can sell things like cheap candy in the Turkish markets.

Absolutely! The only ones that will benefit economically from opening the borders with our mortal enemy the turks, will be Armenia's government and their supporters - in short only the oligarchs - not the 90 percent of Armenia's population. As a matter of fact they will lose out greatly until they move out of their country to other greener pastures and leave Armenia to the enemy.

We are going to lose both (as what is left of Armenians in Armenia are directly threatened), in fact if we had a moral fortitude we would never even enter such negotiations with our mortal enemy. Remember the "border" was closed in 1993 by Turkey in order to complete the choke-hold of Armenia when we were winning in the Artsakh liberation war. They closed it, and they should open it if they have decided to END THE ILLEGAL BLOCKADE. Why should Armenia sign ANYTHING and sacrifice our historic rights in all of this?

That's what I say also. Why should Armenia sign anything and sacrifice our historic rights in the form of reparations to our historic Armenian lands.

Once again we are returning to the lack of moral fortitude on the part of 'our' government in all of this.

True and unfortunately I agree.

Not to mention the fact that hardly anyone raised the question that what Turkey has done (blockading Armenia for more than 16 years) is illegal under international law and they should actually pay reparations in the billions of dollars just for this gross violation alone.

Thank you for informing us of this law. Personally I didn't know of this; but you'd think our loser Armenian government would have known of this. Shouldn't the world morally demeaning powers -mainly the West and Russia- and the United Nations should have imposed and inflicted this on turkey? They didn't, instead they are on the side of a denialist murderous nation such as turkey against a much smaller and a poorer country -Armenia- to impose and control Armenia by pushing our government to sign the protocols with three major pre-conditions against our cause. All this for the world powers (US, Russia and Europe) to benefit from turkey's alliance and to boost their economy further with oil and the turkish land for their strategic benefits and alliances with turkey.

[AlphaPapa]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

Unfortunately Armenias "democracy" tries to emulate the USA one plus the europeans have also been shifting twords such a model gradualy.

Well that was inherited from the Soviets and from the political parties in Beirut and was also a problem in the "first republic".

[Catharsis]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

Agreed. Not only that but whatever monies they make out of the Armenian state they take it out to Dubai or to Europe just in case one day there may be coup-detat and they will not reign anymore. It's only for them and them alone. Very unpatriotic and selfish.

Yes Anoush, the so-called moneyed 'Armenian elites' have shown time and again that they are not a "national bourgeoisie" (if bourgeoisie is ever national) since in this case the national is simply absent from the equation.

Absolutely! The only ones that will benefit economically from opening the borders with our mortal enemy the turks, will be Armenia's government and their supporters - in short only the oligarchs - not the 90 percent of Armenia's population. As a matter of fact they will lose out greatly until they move out of their country to other greener pastures and leave Armenia to the enemy.

Oligarchic monopoly coupled with lawlessness is wreaking havoc and a root cause of out-migration. The "protocols" simply showed that "our" government has no national leverage whatsoever. What little national support was left in Armenia and especially in the Diaspora has been squandered as more and more Armenians have come to understand where we are headed as a people. The president has shown that he is a marionette of "great powers" a locally placed ruler, who actually fancies himself as someone important and tells our own people that he is actually the one who is "behind" the "Turkish-Armenian reconciliation" adding insult to injury, since we all know too well whose tune he is dancing under.

That's what I say also. Why should Armenia sign anything and sacrifice our historic rights in the form of reparations to our historic Armenian lands.

Under non-Armenian pressure he has gambled with international documents that can squander historic Armenian rights and our Quest for Justice. He will find it hard to go on for too long with such carelessness when it comes to the Armenian Cause.

Thank you for informing us of this law. Personally I didn't know of this; but you'd think our loser Armenian government would have known of this. Shouldn't the world morally demeaning powers -mainly the West and Russia- and the United Nations should have imposed and inflicted this on turkey? They didn't, instead they are on the side of a denialist murderous nation such as turkey against a much smaller and a poorer country -Armenia- to impose and control Armenia by pushing our government to sign the protocols with three major pre-conditions against our cause. All this for the world powers (US, Russia and Europe) to benefit from turkey's alliance and to boost their economy further with oil and the turkish land for their strategic benefits and alliances with turkey.

Mediocrity has been the norm for some time as intelligentsia has been silenced or has mostly left. You can see the drive to dumb down the population through things like those soap opera "serials" that are constantly played on the major channels in Armenia. It has especially dramatically increased in the last few years leading up to these "protocols" along with the controlled media bombardment that "we must let go of the past..." and the false indoctrination that the Turkish government has really changed for the better and has stepped back from its hostile and anti-Armenian policies, which of course can be the furthest thing from the truth.

[Haykakan]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

There are so many clueless runons in here its not even funny anymore. Like any idiot can copy and paste what the dashnaks are saying so please stop it. We heard all already, we proved it wrong again and again, enoughf of this brianless emotional crap already, grow up and join the real world. Armenia is a small nation which has its interests dictated to it by larger powers, you wana make it different? Then save your keystrokes and go do something constructive instead of playing armchair qb.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

There are so many clueless runons in here its not even funny anymore. Like any idiot can copy and paste what the dashnaks are saying so please stop it. We heard all already, we proved it wrong again and again, enoughf of this brianless emotional crap already, grow up and join the real world. Armenia is a small nation which has its interests dictated to it by larger powers, you wana make it different? Then save your keystrokes and go do something constructive instead of playing armchair qb.

It's one thing being liberal for US interests it's another being liberal for Armenia's interests. The Dashnaks have it right, it's time to strong arm the current government and abolish the protocols before the powers that be get a hard on thinking their plan is flawless.

[Armanen]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

It's one thing being liberal for US interests it's another being liberal for Armenia's interests. The Dashnaks have it right, it's time to strong arm the current government and abolish the protocols before the powers that be get a hard on thinking their plan is flawless.

If there is an attempt at regime change in Armenia, it will at least be more of a truly popular movement rather than the attempted one in March of 2008, which was a sh*ty attempt at a 'color revolution'. Either way, a civil war is the worst thing that could happen to Armenia, and I do not wish it to occur.

[AlphaPapa]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

Then save your keystrokes and go do something constructive instead of playing armchair qb.

Do you have any constructive suggestions?