Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

[Կարմիր Բ]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

Naye yavrig be very carefull and thoughtfull when you speak about heroes of armenia specially tha tashnag ones...

I am very thoughtful when I am speaking about Armenian heroes botzo.

PS I am not going using the word ''yavrig'' since it is a Turkish word and I am an Armenian not a Dash...err.. Turk.

[Federation]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

Regarding cooperation with the Young Turks:

you are not being totally fair. Heighseight is always 20/20. You must take into consideration the situation during that time. Sultan Abdul Hamid had just slaughtered 300,000 Armenians. Armenians were oppressed under Hamid.

Thus, when the Young Turks planned on overthrowing this brutal regime, and replaced by a seemingly more "moderate" force, which promised Armenians a voice in the parliament, then the ARF sided with the Young Turks.

The situation called for a revolution. Armenians under the Sultan were being killed in the hundreds and thousands.

But as the saying goes, out of the fire and into the frying pan. The Young Turks proved to be more brutal than the previous regime of the Sultan.

Andranik assesed the situation, the ARF leadership should have heeded his warning. But as the saying goes, damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Living under the Sultan we were killed, and after overthrowing him, we were killed.

Andranik is the god of Dashnaksuitiun. Till this day, Dashnaks have preserved and eternalized the memory of Andranik through revolutionary songs.

The fact that Andranik disagreed with the ARF leadership does not mean that the ARF is a traitor organization, as you claim. Even in a family of 4 or 5 members, brothers and sisters, son and father, husband and wife, do not always agree on the same issue, are often in conflict, and disagree with eachother. This is called human nature. The ARF is a vast organization. Made up of a vast array of people. Each person is unique, and has different points of view on policy, strategy, and such. This is heathly and normal. What do you think the ARF is made up of? robots who blindly follow orders from above?

And had it not been for the foresight of the ARF, there would not have been a Soviet Armenia, and consequently the independent Armenia that exists today.

A good portion of the points you make is indeed Soviet era crap that was forced down the throats of Soviet Armenians to cause a division between the Dashnak-led disapora and the homeland.

[Lucin]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

But it seems that the ARF of today isn't the ARF of 100 years ago.

Just have a look at the events in Artsakh, it's part of our recent history... Actually, they function quite well, in time of crisis and chaos...

[Armenian]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

It seems like this political fighting never stops. I remember this same problems we had when I was a child. We had to have seperate Churchs, picnics, parties,and schools. It was stupid then and it is stupid today. We are Armenians, this infighting is what hurt us in the past, enough. Let us be one arm, one body, one sword and one people.

Dear sir, I don't think this situation will change anytime soon, we Armenian are very opinionated by nature, we are stubborn people and we collectively don't like to follow leaders, especially Armenian ones. And the fact that we live in a very complex geopolitical environment does not help our condition either, as a matter of fact it may have developed our condition to begin with. Our nation is essentially located on a very dangerous and complicated intersection - perhaps the most difficult environment to have a republic in. We constantly have powerful forces tugging at us from all sides at all times.

As a result, some Armenians look towards the east for salvation, some look south, some look north, some look west. And all Armenians are convinced that the direction they are looking in is the right direction for the nation. Do you think such conditions could promote political stability? It's simply not possible.

For instance, I strongly believe Armenia's only salvation is with closer relations with Russia and Iran. Incidentally, many Armenians in the US look down at me for that belief of mine. Others believe Armenia's salvation is with closer relations with Europe and the USA. I on the other hand see the West as a serious danger for the Armenian state, my counterparts see the Russia as a serious danger for the Armenian state. I will do everything in my power to stop them and they will do everything in their power to stop me. So, its all a matter of perception.

Under such conditions, what political unity are you expecting?

Need not go too far. Just take a close look at the debate here for instance. The topic is complex, it has no easy answers: Should the ARF have agreed to Andranik's proposals or should Andranik have given into the demands of the ARF? I personally think Andranik should have swallowed his pride and obeyed orders, while others think that Andranik was right and that the ARF should have followed him instead. Should we have fought the Turks instead of giving them Gars/Ardahan? Should we have fought the Bolsheviks instead of surrendering our republic to them? Was Garegin right in disobeying ARF orders and setting up government in Zangezur? Should the ARF have joined forces with the Third Reich with the hopes of administering Armenia if the republic got liberated? Did we need two Katolikosates in the US? Did we need to start the Artsakh movement when we did? Was the communist collapse a good thing for us? Should there be a revolution against the ruling administration in Yerevan? Do Armenians in the diaspora need to start repatriating to the Armenian Republic? Should we arm the Armenian inhabitants of Javakhq?

There are many-many "questions" in Armenian politics and history. As such, Armenia's many serious problems have no easy solutions.

Had we lived as a nation in a place like Scandinavia or Northern America perhaps it would be a different story. But Armenia inherently is a Caucasian/Anatolian nation, with Caucasian/Anatolian problems - be it social, political or strategic.

We simply need to work with what we have and we should never expect total unity.

[Artsakh]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

Armenian,

TSAVET DANEM!

herika akhper jan. Kunem te dashnaknerin, te hnchakneri, te kocharyanin, te sarkisyanin, te ays kan ayn miyuse bo-zi tghoon.

Mardkutyun@ mnuma Mardkutyun, tsavet danem.

KAJ ANDRANIK KEZ GHOORBAN, DO ES PRGICH, PAHAPAN,

MAH@ MER NEH, MENK NRAN, KETCE ANOUSH HAYASAN!

VERCH, akhper jan.

[Armenian]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

OK Artsakh, I have given you enough rope to hang yourself with. I'm just tired of your obsessions and lies. I'm tried of your immaturity and irrationality.

Foremost, let me remind you again that I have ARF friends that know firsthand what is transpiring with Jirayr Sefilian's case. Many Dashnaks close to him, including some of his friends, admit that he needed to be punished for what he was involved in. So, please don't put your nose into something you only hear about in gossip. And you know very well that the 1999 hit in the Armenian parliament was most probably the doing of the Russian FSB.

What's more, I allowed you to spread Bolshevik propaganda, and I was actually hoping for more of your Bolshevik derived crap. Nevertheless, the fact of the matter is the ARF never conspired with the Turks against Andranik. That fairytale you proudly spread does not exist in any reliable source - be it Dashnak, Bolshevik or Turkish. It's pure Bolshevik era derived propaganda. So, if you have a source, a reliable source, that we are not aware of please do us a favor and post it.

Yes, all the problems Andranik had with the ARF - namely weather or not to continue the war against Turkey - is well documented. However, there is nothing in the archives to suggested, even vaguely, that the ARF was ready to handover Andranik to the Turks. That BS you are so quick to spread was Bolshevik era derived propaganda against the ARF. Andranik was ousted from the Armenian Republic by the ARF because he did not conform to will of the state - simple as that. The same happened to Garegin. Andranik wanted to wage war inside western Armenia, while the Armenian government was desperately trying to preserve the remnants of the newly formed Armenian state in the Caucasus. So, by spread vicious and disgusting lies about the ARF conspiring with Turks against Andranik you are essentially continuing the dirty work of Bolsheviks and Turks.

Nevertheless, whatever little respect I had for you and your intellectual integrity I have now dumped into my virtual trash bin. I have tolerated your obsessions in the past especially when you have repeatedly apologized to me and said you did not want to expose our internal issues to the Turks. But every time you read something here that could be construed as positive about the ARF you could not resist, even signing in under different user names just to satisfy your obsession. And couple of weeks ago when I again complained to you about your ARF obsessions your excuse back then was your following comment to me:

Akhper jan, tsavet danem. Please don't be mad at me. you know how much i respect you, and what you do. the reason that i stated the haka-dashnak propoganda was as an experiment. i am sickened that when the xxx says "no anti-J-e-w material allowed", the moderators here clamp down like pit bulls, and instantly delete any post even containing the word J-e-w. However, any anti-armenian post is allowed. and since the dashnaks are the self proclaimed nationalists, why do they allow anti-dashnak posts to be made? they should team up and give the moderators hell. so that was my initial goal, to piss the dashnaks off so they pressure the moderators into censuring all the anti-armenian, anti-dashnak posts. obviously, it did not work. Perhaps because they don't care enough? i don't know. one thing is for sure, if they don't do anything about it, then they deserve being degraded on a public forum where all can read.

So, let me guess Artsakh, is what you are doing now still an experiment about Joos?!?!?! If so, then I'm afraid you are one strange puppy. And believe me when I tell you that the ARF is not secretly planning the destruction of Armenia. Now you can sleep in peace.

Please don't ever send me another PM.

[melikianAvak]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

It seems like this political fighting never stops. I remember this same problems we had when I was a child. We had to have seperate Churchs, picnics, parties,and schools. It was stupid then and it is stupid today.

We are Armenians, this infighting is what hurt us in the past, enough. Let us be one arm, one body, one sword and one people.

[melikianAvak]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

Enker, its easy to criticize in hindsight. Just put yourself into the shoes of those in charge of protecting the last remnants of the Armenian nation in 1918. Seriously consider the geopolitical and socioeconomic condition under which the Armenian Republic came into being.

Yeghbayr Armenian

I was a young boy and was very interested in our people and country. I had many talks with my parents and other Hays who lived trough those times. Here are a few things that they told me that I believe to be true.

1. 1918 till the country was handed over to the Bolsheviks it was not in good shape, and was close to total destruction in the opinion of most.

2. The people had suffered more then we could understand.

3. The Turks attacked Alexandropol (Gyumri) city my mother was from. According to her the Turkish soldiers that took the city were starving and in raged clothing, and many had no shoes. But they still were able to take it.

4. The older Armenians told me they were shocked and could not believe Kars fell.

5. The men who fought the Turks before 1918 were tired; it had been a difficult war to say the least. The people were literly starving, especially the people from Western Armenia. I don't wish to repeat the stories of starvation that I was told by my mother.

6. The Armenian men and women fought and saved the country at the battle of Sardarapat. I have posted the information of that battle before; bare with me I think it is worth adding again to this post.

7. All the Armenians that I talked to who lived through the times were of the opinion that had the country not been turned over to the Bolsheviks it would have be lost. Some of you may not believe or like this info, never the less it is true.

Many thought at the start that things would be much better, but things changed to very bad.

In my opinion these people, our people were very brave. I hope Armenians never go through what our people of thst time

God bless them all, let us try to be as good and as great.

God Bless you all.

************************************************** ***
THE FIRST REPUBLIC (FROM 1918 TO SOVIETIZTION IN 1920-1921)

Collapse of Transcaucasian Federation. The triumph of Bolsheviks in 1917 put an end to the Russian Empire. In winter 1918, the Armenian, Georgian and Moslem leaders of Transcaucasia united to convene the Transcaucasian Federation, which proclaimed the secession of Transcaucasia from Russia.

The Turks, rapturous over the Russian Revolution, took it almost as a miracle produced by Allah. With the decline of the Russian military power, the Caucasus front collapsed, and the decaying Turkish power survived. To prevent the further destruction of the new Bolshevik State, Vladimir Lenin was forced to conclude the humiliating Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. The treaty had drastic consequences for the Armenians. The Turkish forces reoccupied the lands of the Western Armenia, earlier liberated by Russians.

In late May 1918, under the threat of a new Turkish offensive on the Caucasus, the Transcaucasian Federation collapsed after only 3 months of existence. In fact, the Federation was a still-born creature from the very beginning. Insuperable divergences existed between the Armenian, Georgian and Moslem deputations. The Georgians were oriented to Germany, and the Moslems to Turkey, whereas the Armenians, though loyal to the Entente, were supported by nobody.
On May 26 the independence of Georgia was declared. At the same time, the Moslems proclaimed a "Musavat Republic of Azerbaijan". This new Turkish state, created in the historical lands of the eastern Armenia, immediately and shamelessly laid claims on the Armenian territories in Karabakh, Zangezur and Nakhichevan.


The independence of Armenia proclaimed.
Flag of Armenia Left alone, Armenians faced the total annihilation as the 100 thousandth Turkish army crossed the pre-war Russian frontier, annexed the city of Kars and approached the Armenian capital of Yerevan. After having depopulated the Western Armenia, the Turkish military were now about to destroy the rest of Armenia and achieve their goal of eliminating the Armenian nation.
The Armenians raised an army of 40,000 men, including soldiers, officers, volunteers and mass levies. At first the Dashnak leaders wanted to evacuate the population and to surrender Yerevan, but the Military Council headed by the Colonel Pirumian finally decided to do battle.

The two armies met on May 28, 1918 near Sardarapat. The battle was crowned with an outstanding Armenian victory. Some 30 thousand of Turkish soldiers were killed; the Turks were flung out. Vahib-Pasha, the defeated Turkish commander, termed the Armenian soldiers as "the best fighters in the world". The Armenians also held defenses at Karaklis and at Abaran.
On the same day of May 28, 1918 Armenia was proclaimed an independent republic. However, the embryo state was devastated, with a dislocated economy, dozens of thousands of refugees and the population starving. The danger of a new Turkish aggression was still imminent. Also, the country was soon involved in a territorial conflict with Georgia. Moreover, the situation in Karabakh was especially dangerous as the new Azerbaijani state made a series of ultimatums to the Armenian population. In September, 1918 the Turkish troops invaded Baku and joined the Turkish-Azeri mobs in massacring some 30, 000 Armenians. Dozens of surrounding Armenian villages were destroyed.

The Wilsonian borders.

Woodrow Wilson Mean while, the European powers found themselves unable to solve the Armenian Question. The unification of the Caucasian Armenia with the Turkish Armenia proclaimed by the Armenian government in 1919 turned out Utopian. After Armenia was officially recognized by the governments of Allies and by the United States, the US President Woodrow Wilson was invited to determine the borders of the Armenian State. According to Wilson's map, a new Armenia would include most of its historically belonging lands. The project would never come true.

Armenia falls to Bolsheviks.

Mustafa Kemal Further more, Armenia would face the new territorial losses. Mustafa Kemal, the new Turkish opposition leader, was able to reach an agreement with the Bolshevik leaders of Russia. Enthusiastic with the idea of "exporting the revolution eastward", Lenin and Stalin were prompt in starting an unprecedented financial and military aid to Kemal. At that time Armenia exploded into anarchy as the Armenian Bolsheviks rose in the cities of Nakhichevan, Alexandrople and Kars. The Soviet government hypocritically negotiated with both Dashnak and Bolshevik leaders of Armenia.

In August 1920, the Treaty of Sèvres, signed by England, France and Turkey, bound Turkey to recognize the independence of Armenia and the Wilsonian boundaries. The new Armenian state was recognized by most of the countries, including the United States. However, after the triumph of Mustafa Kemal, the Turks, supported by the Bolshevik Russia, attacked the infant Armenian Republic again. The Armenian and Russian Bolsheviks played a fatal role in demoralizing the population and the Armenian army. The Bolshevik propaganda now called the Turks "socialists" and "friends of Russians". On the other hand, the victorious Russian XI Red Army, after successfully Sovietizing Baku, Azerbaijan, and Karabakh, approached Yerevan to "overthrow the Dashnaks". The disoriented Armenian army retreated, surrendering Kars and the uyezd of Surmali. The whole Armenian population there was then pitilessly butchered by the Turks.

On November 29, 1920, Armenia was declared a Soviet state.

Link: http://www.armenianhistory.info/thefirst.htm

[Artsakh]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

Armenian,

I mearly pointed out a historical fact-the fact that Andranik resigned from the Dashnak Party-and you declared an all out war against this legendary warrior.

There is noting wrong with criticizing a political party, and speaking of its historical errors. As the saying goes, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. But instead of giving a response to those errors, you start attacking Andranik. Are you so backrupt, that you resort to attacking an Armenian national hero to justify yourself? and at a time nearing the 80th anniversary of this hero's death?

The bottom line is, if Andranik hadn't saved Zangezure from falling into Azeri hands, and being surrounded by turks to the east, west, and south, today there would be no Armenia to speak of.

What are you going to do next, start attacking General Njdeh-who also quit the party?

Are you going to start attacking the scores of other patriots who withdrew from the party?

Thus far, that's all you've been doing.

[Artsakh]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

I stoped reading the rest you posted

please, by all means, do STOP reading what I write.

and START reading the works of real historians. You can start by reading:

`Antranig and His Times' by Hratchig Simonian

http://groong.usc.edu/tcc/tcc-20050228.html

http://groong.usc.edu/tcc/tcc-20060612.html

and Andranik and the Armenian Revolutionary Movement by Antranig Chalabian:

http://www.abrilbooks.com/Bookinfo/History/GeneralAndranik.htm