Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

[Artsakh]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

man what are you talking about a war against a nation that didn't exist, where we fighting aginst gohst or spirits because in 1917 Lenin took over the power in Russia and they left the war, Armenia was created in 1918. who can we fight against the tsar as it didn't exist any more, all their armies were retreated to russia and the red army was forming and the civil war was going on. whit vs red. They hadn't have time for a war. And after makin such a mistake I stoped reading the rest you posted

The Armenian Revolutionary Movement predates the establishment of the 1918 Republic of Armenia. In fact, that so called "independence", which was forced upon the Armenians by the very forces that were responsible for the Armenian Genocide, was a major set-back for the Armenian Revolutionary Movement.

As regards your comment about fights ghosts or spirits, I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.

The Armenian Revolutionary Movement was focused upon freeing western (Turkish) Armenia. Under the Ottoman yoke Armenians were threatened with total annihilation.

When the ARF decided to join ranks with Russian socialists against the Tsarist state, the ARF opened up a new battlefront.

Antranig urged the concentration of all resources and effort on the national struggle in the heart of Armenia ` the western Armenian provinces occupied by the Ottoman Empire.

Opening this new battlefront was in his view an unwise extension of severely limited Armenian power.

When the Republic of Armenia was established in 1918, the Dashnak leaders threw the Republic into a 3 front war against Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Turkey.

The ARF, by throwing Armenia into a war with Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Tsarist Russia, essentially drained all of Armenias resources and hope to resist the turks. They endangered the nation. Yeah sure, the ARF could wipe out Turkey, Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Tsarist Russia without war supplies, without funds, without international support. Yeah, it is fun to fantasize. The hard reality, however, is that this shows the political maturity of the ARF. Thus, the ARF's adventures were risking our nation total destruction.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

The only entity living in a fantasy world who's policies led to a 4 front war against Turkey, Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Russia was that of the ARF. The ARF, by throwing Armenia into a war with Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Tsarist Russia, essentially drained all of Armenias resources and hope to resist the turks. They endangered the nation. Yeah sure, the ARF could wipe out Turkey, Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Tsarist Russia without war supplies, without funds, without international support. Yeah, it is fun to fantasize. The hard reality, however, is that this shows the political maturity of the ARF. Thus, the ARF's adventures were risking our nation total destruction.

man what are you talking about a war against a nation that didn't exist, where we fighting aginst gohst or spirits because in 1917 Lenin took over the power in Russia and they left the war, Armenia was created in 1918. who can we fight against the tsar as it didn't exist any more, all their armies were retreated to russia and the red army was forming and the civil war was going on. whit vs red. They hadn't have time for a war. And after makin such a mistake I stoped reading the rest you posted

[karoaper]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

Wow, talk about the old stereotype that Armenians either see someone as absolutely perfect, and saint, without a fault or a complete scum/xxxxx/traitor.

[Artsakh]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

> This is Dashnaktsutyun by IGOR MURADYAN
>
> Lragir.am
> 20-06-2007
>
> In trying to develop its organizations in Armenia and the post-Soviet
> space since 1988 the ARF Dashnaktsutyun has tried to recruit as many
> people as possible, who often did not share the regulations and ideas,
> as well as the political and ideological principles of the party. In an
> effort to integrate with the people and the society Dashnaktsutyun
> admitted lots of accidental and unprincipled people who formed through
> years the ballast of the party, causing every interesting thing that the
> party had to sink, including self-denial. Running into innumerable
> problems and disappointment, undergoing repression in Armenia and
> getting no support from the Armenian society, the leaders of the party
> decided to work out a tactics which gradually became a strategy and
> essence of political style. This tactics-strategy involves collaboration
> with the government at any price. Despite humiliation and reproach from
> the representatives of the government policy, collaboration with
> President Kocharyan helped the party overcome this marginal state and
> become member of the coalition government. Dashnaktsutyun's goal became
> full support for the government in Yerevan to prevent their ontological
> enemies from coming to power. The efforts to help this party and direct
> its efforts into a politically more effective direction ended in a
> denial of everyone and everything that did not match the given stance.
> It led to weakening of the grassroots, the strengthening of criticism of
> the leadership by formal and non-formal groups inside the party, and
> independent stances of the party's organizations in different countries.
> However, realizing that the fate of the party depends on the state of
> things in Armenia, the leadership was offered a limited "vote of
> confidence", and the figures who head of the Armenian organization were
> left alone, with a hope for improving the situation. The majority of the
> party realizes that the party leadership suffers from some chronic
> disease but in fact it consciously approved the situation and got used
> to this condition, for different reasons, and this pending state of this
> latent internal opposition inspires hope. In this case, however, we are
> not interested in the turmoil inside the party but the responsibility of
> the party leadership for the party members, for many who trusted
> Dashnaktsutyun and in accordance with the regulations of the party must
> carry out the decisions of the party. The leaders of Dashnaktsutyun gave
> instructions to the members of the party in Nagorno-Karabakh Republic
> regarding the NKR election campaign that started June 19, 2007. It seems
> to be an ordinary decision of the party, although it was made under the
> pressure of Hrant Margaryan, a party leader. The grassroots of the party
> strongly opposed to this decision, more exactly instruction. Virtually,
> the Dashnaks of Karabakh did not approve this instruction, and the
> majority is ready to neglect this decision or support another candidate.
> A number of questions and problems have occurred, in Stepanakert,
> Martakert and Hadrut. As the culmination is drawing nearer, the crisis
> inside the party is becoming worse. After all, what is the stance and
> the policy, let me put it so, of the ARF Dashnaktsutyun? This stance is
> well-known to definite circles. Hrant Margaryan stated it clearly and
> cynically in NKR long before the parliamentary election of 2005.
> However, if I may say so, they preferred to keep silent, hoping for a
> change of the stance of the Dashnaktsutyun leadership. But what happened
> a few days ago embarrassed even the worst critics of the party. I mean
> the speech of Vahan Hovanisyan, member of the ARF Dashnaktsutyun Bureau.
> One of the leaders of the party questions the following: there are no
> anticipations regarding the establishment of democratic institutions in
> NKR, the government reproduces, any government reproduces, no
> presidential and other elections have importance in Karabakh, nothing
> depends on the personality of the Karabakh president because all the
> decisions are made in Yerevan. However, the top of cynicism was the
> mentioning of the name of the first president of the NKR Supreme Soviet
> Arthur Mkrtichyan as an argument that political struggle in NKR is
> useless and even harmless. Vahan Hovanisyan's speech became the most
> forceful evidence to the degradation of the Dashnaktsutyun leadership
> and the utter loss of the political prospect. In fact, this speech
> became a display of Hrant Margaryan's "brilliant thoughts" who had
> recommended his colleague and fellow for this speech, who has a more
> free and decadent political style. A member of the Bureau says: "If we
> let Kocharyan go, our enemies will come to power." Another member of the
> Bureau says: "What else do we have in Armenia except Kocharyan?"
>
>
>
> Hence, the political future and the society of NKR are sacrificed to the
> stance of Dashnaktsutyun in Yerevan. The party leadership in Yerevan is
> ready to sacrifice for the sake of the coalition government and
> ministerial posts not only the social and political fate of NKR but also
> the lowlands of Karabakh. How about "Hay Dat"? Hardly anyone will doubt
> that a ministerial post is a source of immense income. They say you are
> the one you envy. The leadership of the party in Yerevan envies the mob.
>
>
>
>
> One way or another, the fate of the Dashnaktsutyun leadership does not
> interest anyone. The state of hundreds of members of Dashnaktsutyun, our
> loyal friends, is worrying, who are actually outside the party, and we
> do not have very many friends. These people are facing a difficult
> choice, maybe the most important in their life in this stage. We will
> lend them a hand, we will not let them obey political criminals. The
> regulations and ideology of Dashnaktsutyun are not purely partisan
> phenomena. Everyone from our nation must share these principles.
> Therefore, the members of the party first of all share the principles of
> several generations rather than the opinions of the leadership. I mean
> the Armenian political nationalist and not a ruined party which was
> defined preciselyin the Small Soviet Encyclopedia - a minor bourgeois
> party. No matter from which point the destroyers of the party approach
> the current situation, they are but peddlers of a minor bourgeois
> society. (By the way, a vain person cannot understand that it is harder
> to appear in the Small Soviet Dictionary than the Big one.)
>
>
>
> Fellow members of Dashnaktsutyun in Karabakh, don't be afraid, we are
> beside you, always. You will be voting as humans and Armenian
> nationalists, not as they will order you.
>
>
>
> IGOR MURADYAN

[Artsakh]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

famous quote regarding ARF from famous Dashnak leader hovaness kachazuni:

"The ARF is a dead body and from hereon has nothing to do anymore."

isn't the burial of that dead body long over due?

[Artsakh]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

We find a similar situations with individuals like Jirayr Sefilian. He was a courageous war time leader, but his relative wartime fame got to his head in peace time. Unlike geniuses here who like to bring him up every time the ARF comes up in discussion, I happen to know ARF members who are relatively close to Jirayr and his legal defense team. Even they admit that Jirayr may have crossed the line. He and his group were essentially boasting about assassinating the Armenian leadership simply based on vicious rumors and hearsay. Stupid rumors such as the crap about Kocharyan selling Artsakh to the Azeris for 9 billions US dollars. What they did cannot be allowed in our nation, no armed gangs regardless of how well meaning can be allowed free reign. Armenia is not Afghanistan nor is it Zimbabwe.

And yes, there can only be one armed gang, one mafia - the central authorities. This is the case in much of the civilized world, not the least of which is the USA.

Did Jirayr commit any crime? NO. All he did, was merely speak out against the treasonous comments made by Serge Sarkissian regardin the liberated territories.

In Armenia Afghanistan or Zimbabwe that gunmen burst into the parliament building cursing and firing bullets and humiliating the country in front of the world?

THE HISTORIAL RECORD MUST BE SET STRAIGHT:

FROM 1994 TO 1998, DURING THE PERIOD THAT THE ARF WAS BANNED, NOT A SINGLE POLITICAL MURDER OCCURED IN ARMENIA.
AFTER THE ARF WAS LEGALIZED, A SERIES OF POLITICAL MURDER BEGAN TO TAKE PLACE. THIS REACHED ITS ZENITH IN OCTOBER 27, 1999 AND POLITICAL MURDERS OCCUR TODAY IN ARMENIA ON A REGULAR BASIS, INCLUDING MAFIA-STYLE SHOOT OUTS IN BROAD DAY LIGHT.

[Artsakh]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

Again, study the geopolitical climate in the Caucasus and the desperate condition in which the Armenian Republic was in at the time. It's all nice and manly to think Andranik could do this or that. Well, you say - He thought he could so he must have been right. Yeah sure, Andranik could wipe out the Turkish presence from within Anatolia with several thousand men without reserves, without war supplies, without funds, without international support. And I'm sure he would have later turned his attention on the Bolsheviks and destroy them as well. Yeah, it is fun to fantasize. The hard reality, however, was no one in our nation at the time could defeat the Turks and the Bolsheviks. Thus, Andranik's warrior adventures were risking our nation total destruction.

The only entity living in a fantasy world who's policies led to a 4 front war against Turkey, Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Russia was that of the ARF. The ARF, by throwing Armenia into a war with Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Tsarist Russia, essentially drained all of Armenias resources and hope to resist the turks. They endangered the nation. Yeah sure, the ARF could wipe out Turkey, Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Tsarist Russia without war supplies, without funds, without international support. Yeah, it is fun to fantasize. The hard reality, however, is that this shows the political maturity of the ARF. Thus, the ARF's adventures were risking our nation total destruction.


The same practical concerns animated Antranig's stand against the
ARF's decision to join ranks with Russian socialists against the
Tsarist state. Opening this new battlefront was in his view an unwise
extension of severely limited Armenian power. Armenians under the
Tsarist yoke were indeed oppressed. But under the Ottoman yoke they
were threatened with imminent extinction. So Antranig urged the
concentration of all resources and effort on the national struggle in
the heart of Armenia ` the western Armenian provinces occupied by the
Ottoman Empire.


Dude, do you have any knowledge of the fall of Erzurum? Do you know how close we came to liberating it?


"In 1917-8, when the Russians on the Turkish front left their mountain-high stacks of ammunition and fled, our leaders and commanders did not make use of that excellent opportunity to resist the Turks, whose armies were disintegrating and whose soldiers were demorlized; the Armenians could have easily established an Armenian state."

"The impregnable walled city of Erzurum was the gateway to Caucasia. But the passive attitude which the Dashnaksuitiun so willingly adopted, by signing an agreement with the Mensheviks of Georgia and the Musavat party of Azerbaijan in Tbilisi, was sadly reflected in the endangerment of Erzurum and the impossibility of defending the city."

[AR MENIA]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

Enker, its easy to criticize in hindsight. Just put yourself into the shoes of those in charge of protecting the last remnants of the Armenian nation in 1918. Seriously consider the geopolitical and socioeconomic condition under which the Armenian Republic came into being. Andranik was a legendary warrior, but you can't excuse his recklessness. Just think of what you and others here are stating - namely that Andranik was right in thinking that several thousand volunteers could defeat the Turkish state. Don't you see the absurdity in this line of reasoning? Its wishful thinking to the extreme, to the point that individuals like Andranik even risk the destruction of the rest of the Armenian nation by continuing the hopeless war.

Enker, i didn't say he could defeat the turkish army but neither did i say he could not defeat the turkish army.
I didn't say anything about the resultation of such a war but i just can't imagine that the general did not understand what he was saying, afterall he was the general of the Armenian army and he had much experience in fighting against turks.

Maybe you are 100% right, maybe what he wanted to do was the most stupid thing one could do in such a scenario, maybe, we would never know because it has not gotten so far.

Remember one thing, Had you told Julius Caesar that his empire once would fall he would have laughed at you and thought you were crazy.
With other words anything can happen, anything.

Had Andranik stayed in the Caucasus/Eastern-Anatolia longer and started an liberation war against the turks maybe now we would not speak of him as a hero ...

Anything can happen

Again, study the geopolitical climate in the Caucasus and the desperate condition in which the Armenian Republic was in at the time. It's all nice and manly to think Andranik could do this or that. Well, you say - He thought he could so he must have been right. Yeah sure, Andranik could wipe out the Turkish presence from within Anatolia with several thousand men without reserves, without war supplies, without funds, without international support. And I'm sure he would have later turned his attention on the Bolsheviks and destroy them as well. Yeah, it is fun to fantasize. The hard reality, however, was no one in our nation at the time could defeat the Turks and the Bolsheviks. Thus, Andranik's warrior adventures were risking our nation total destruction.

I didn't ment the turkish presence in Anatolia, i ment the presence of the turkish army.
Anyway because of this discussion with you enker i now better understand the ARF and it's decisions made in those ugly times.

Again, this is not about blindly defending the ARF. The ARF was in power during the most difficult time period in the entire history of the Armenian nation. The party made many mistakes, the party had many successes. The party became the catalyst for many great individuals to step forward and serve the Armenian nation, not the lest of which were Andranik, Garegin and Dro. What the party accomplished in this 100 + years history is legendary.

I just can't stand idiots who gather in a circle jerk and spew crap about the ARF being out to destroy the Armenian nation. It's just so damn stupid. As if top level ARF members gather in secret places in the dead of night just to plot the destruction of the Armenian nation.

It's just stupid, bordering on insane.

haha i'm glad i don't know such people.

When the ARF was established it was a national-socialist politicall party, lately i heard from someone that the ARF officially isn't national-socialist anymore but just socialists, is this true?

[Artsakh]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

Enker, its easy to criticize in hindsight. Just put yourself into the shoes of those in charge of protecting the last remnants of the Armenian nation in 1918. Seriously consider the geopolitical and socioeconomic condition under which the Armenian Republic came into being. Andranik was a legendary warrior, but you can't excuse his recklessness. Just think of what you and others here are stating - namely that Andranik was right in thinking that several thousand volunteers could defeat the Turkish state. Don't you see the absurdity in this line of reasoning? Its wishful thinking to the extreme, to the point that individuals like Andranik even risk the destruction of the rest of the Armenian nation by continuing the hopeless war.

Armenia had no economy, no manpower, no supplies, no funds, no international help, Armenia had NOTHING to wage war with at the time. Just because a great warrior thinks he can defeat a massive foe does not make it true.

ANTRANIG VERSUS THE ARF LEADERSHIP

Rejecting the ARF political trajectory Antranig, across the years,
acted as something of a consistent opposition, sometimes internal,
sometimes external. `The Movement' summarised the essence of his stand
when it reported him arguing for `removing the reigns of leadership
from the (ARF) Bureau officials, from amateurs' and `passing them to
the military revolutionary forces' `working in the Homeland.' (p305)
On a first encounter the detail of Antranig's politics seem to be
marked by a narrow nationalism and militarism that compared poorly
with an apparently more sophisticated political, democratic and
internationalist ARF leadership. But for all the ambiguities of his
formulations in his practical politics Antranig proved to be the more
acute judge.

Antranig's political views were not born of any theoretical or
ideological considerations. Opposing the Young Turks he simply made
what was a correct practical assessment that they were not genuinely
committed to the emancipation of nations oppressed by the Ottoman
Empire. He may not have argued a sophisticated intellectual case but
in contrast to the ARF his experience in the Homeland enabled him to
discern the utterly reactionary character of the Young Turks. So he
rightly turned down offers of a seat in the new Ottoman `parliament'.
`Go ahead and enjoy their company' he told the ARF leadership. `But be
careful of these new comrades of yours'. In `the not too distant
future they will have your heads and those of the people too... A vast
trap is being laid, be careful.' (p321-322) The ARF leadership, whose
politics expressed tragic delusions of the Diaspora intelligentsia did
not heed such sound advice. [2]

The same practical concerns animated Antranig's stand against the
ARF's decision to join ranks with Russian socialists against the
Tsarist state. Opening this new battlefront was in his view an unwise
extension of severely limited Armenian power. Armenians under the
Tsarist yoke were indeed oppressed. But under the Ottoman yoke they
were threatened with imminent extinction. So Antranig urged the
concentration of all resources and effort on the national struggle in
the heart of Armenia ` the western Armenian provinces occupied by the
Ottoman Empire.

Antranig's opposition to the ARF's brand of socialist ideology flowed
primarily from such practical concerns. As this ideology accompanied
the growing intimacy with the Young Turks and the ARF entry into the
anti-Tsarist struggle Antranig condemned ARF socialism as an `alien
path'. In this socialism he saw little more than radical rhetoric that
disguised the `betrayal of national ideals' (p260-261). However
neither his opposition to the ARF-Young Turk accord nor his hostility
to ARF socialism made him a national chauvinist or a friend of the
elite.

Antranig's uncompromising nationalism was prompted only by concern for
the downtrodden. He hated Ottoman tyranny because `executing its work
systematically' it subjects the common people to `artificial famine,
forced emigration... endless and unbearable taxes... plunder,
kidnapping and other such miseries.' (p274) In their attitude to
non-Armenians Antranig and the guerrillas were `honourable and just to
all, irrespective of nationality.' It was not unusual, writes Simonian
`for Kurdish and Turkish working people to turn to the guerrillas' to
right wrongs done them by their own elites. (p92)

The final ideological and political, if not organisational rupture
between Antranig and the ARF crystallized during the ARF's Fourth
General Congress held in Vienna in 1907. Though at the time not
resident in Armenia, he attended as the representative for the
guerrilla movement substituting for Gevorg Chavoush. Urging Antranig
to remain firm, a letter from Chavoush gave vent to guerrilla
bitterness against the exiled leadership for its failure to send
`money or armaments' to Mush and Sassoon. This had `thereby caused the
people to curse' the leadership. (p288) At the Congress besides
reiterating his broad positions Antranig laid enormous stress on
questions of armed organisation and weapon procurements calling for
immediate measures to prepare for national insurrection. Among other
reasons he referred to the emigration that was `draining the land of
up to 50,000 people a year' and so undermining the foundations of the
Armenian nation. What in normal circumstances would `take four years
to do we have to do in one' he argued. (p295-300)

But the 1907 ARF Congress marked the isolation of the guerrilla
leadership and final victory of the Diaspora intelligentsia. The
treatment meted out to Antranig highlighted their polarisation. As
representative of the guerrillas he was sidelined. Throughout
Simonian's account one gets a whiff of the leadership's patronising
haughtiness suggesting that Antranig was incapable of appreciating the
finer points of politics. Antranig may not have received a European
university education, but he possessed a brilliant mind. For all his
political shortcomings he was astute enough to anticipate the Young
Turk trap. But he proved unable to organise a political opposition
that would prevent the ARF leadership walking into that trap.

In 1911 the ARF did eventually accept that its alliance with the Young
Turks had proved to be an error and so moved to terminate it. But
instead of developing an independent, self-reliant policy that
combined Antranig's and Hrair's revolutionary vision, the ARF turned
again to treacherous Europe and nefarious Russia that had so cynically
and so systematically used and betrayed the Armenian people.

[Artsakh]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

Enker, its easy to criticize in hindsight. Just put yourself into the shoes of those in charge of protecting the last remnants of the Armenian nation in 1918. Seriously consider the geopolitical and socioeconomic condition under which the Armenian Republic came into being. Andranik was a legendary warrior, but you can't excuse his recklessness. Just think of what you and others here are stating - namely that Andranik was right in thinking that several thousand volunteers could defeat the Turkish state. Don't you see the absurdity in this line of reasoning? Its wishful thinking to the extreme, to the point that individuals like Andranik even risk the destruction of the rest of the Armenian nation by continuing the hopeless war.

Armenia had no economy, no manpower, no supplies, no funds, no international help, Armenia had NOTHING to wage war with at the time. Just because a great warrior thinks he can defeat a massive foe does not make it true.

American generals Patton and Macarthur thought they could defeat the Soviet Union at the end of the Second World War. Well, the same thing happened to them that happened to Andranik. Were Macarthur and Patton stupid? As a matter of fact, the USA at the time was infinitely stronger than Armenia was. Although, in my opinion, it was nearly impossible to defeat the Soviet Union militarily, at the very least what Patton and Macarthur wanted was not as far fetched as what Andranik wanted. Yet, the American generals in question got axed for their dangerous beliefs.

Do any one of you here seriously think that Armenia at the time could defeat the Turkish state and the Bolshevik? I really think there is a lack of understanding, logic and maturity in these discussions.



Those were ugly times in every sense of the word. And the party made many mistakes. What Andranik did could also be translated as treason, for in the eyes of the politicians in Yerevan he was jeopardizing what had remained of the Armenian nation.

Where do you come up with this crap, honestly? Do you sit in your chair all day and right fictional fairly tales? How far will you go to justify the actions of that disgraced "Armenian" revolutionary federation? You are Blind. You are too close to see the truth.

Instead of making up fairly tales, why don't you go open up Andranik Chelebians book, and Hrachik Simonyans book, and start reading. It's all there-in black and white.