A few points I would like to refute and make a final statement on

[Virgil]

What a hierocracy you do not like our western culture; however you do like the billions of dollars that pour in your country from half Bastards Like JOJO; who sends more to Kids In Armenia in a day then you can make in a year.
Like I said what you have done to help others
Lets ask around your own 100% Armenians, your friends and even family what have you done to help, probably your family Here in America, South America, and other continents have send you money clothes. You are just a sorry excuse for a Human being.
Most of Armenian outside the country helps the Armenians back in Armenian their influx of cash that helps support your country.
Like Lamb boy said you must be jealous that you don’t have the things we do. Maybe the American Embassy did not give you a Visa that’s why you are mad, because a little boy from America Donates more money in one day then you have made in your life time

No, I never said Jojo is a half bastard, stop putting words in my mouth. My point was, you are xxxxxing out your half Armenian child on a Armenian forum and, I, as a Armenian am just calling you out on it. This child is half Armenian, get this through your thick skull and has a other half, by you bringing him to this forum, you are pushing forward the idea that he is "Armenian" and thus, are indirectly assuming that being Armenain is better than the other half. Most importantly, by me accepting you and supporting this kid, you are demotivating (a) the Diaspora to maintain their Armenian identity and (b) Armenians in Armenia to build a nation.

Understand, the fundimental base of "mulitculturalism" is the idea that identity is socially constructed (i.e. "social construction or social construct is any institutionalized entity or artifact in a social system 'invented' or 'constructed' by participants in a particular culture or society that exists because people agree to behave as if it exists or follow certain conventional rules") and because it is "socially constructed" you can "program" a identity into anyone. Ok, fair enough, but if a identity is socially constructed, than the Diaspora is being feed a identity via social construction in the host nation they immigrated to and furthermore, any Armenian that has been feed this identity has a marginalized identity. Essentially, successive generations of the Diaspora pass down a marginalized identity, this is reality, by living in a Diaspora you are developing a identity that is alien to the people in Armenie because while you are outside of Armenia, Armenians in Armenia are developing a identity as well.

Now, if full Armenians are themselves marginalized than a half Armenians has many factors that influence his or her identity, you have the social construction of the host nation, the identity of the non Armenian half, the marginalized identity of the full Armenian, and sometimes the identity of a being part of a new race and religion. He or she in essense is not Armenian nor is he or she non Armenian, if the half Armenian was a dish it would be a dish created by mixing two other mutually exclusive dishes together (i.e. two different identities together).

READ MY REPLIES TO YOU, not once have I state that their exists a "biological" reasons that constitute a identity. In fact there exists a multitude of fabrics that stich together to form one's identity, you are being ignorant because by being ignorant you can live in the false reality you have created for yourself. Forum members, wake up, this idea of a "spiritual Armenia" is a lie, there exists no such thing.

By the way, you don't know who I am and what I do in my real life. Lets stop with these "I do this" and "you do that", I never have stated that being a "good human being is bad", but what is equally worse than stating this is your refusal to admit that you prefer that your child or your "friend's" child to be Armenian (i.e. advocating the idea that being non Armenian is a inferiority). Second of all, you are assuming that I want Armenians to "donate money"? No, I don't want Armenians to donate money, this is the problem and demotivating agent to state building, it a creates a excuse to emigrate and not return. This is the reality, stop talking out of your ass, your reply just further enforces my stance because you are trying to create a justification for your actions.

You want the 100% Armenians to return to the Home land and do what?
They are outside the Country no because they want to be, but for necessity, their hard work is what fuels Armenia and I bet you yourself have got help from someone outside Armenia.
Because everyone I know have send, or is sending money to their family and friends.

No, the hard work of Armenians in Armenia fuels Armenia. It is the base for the future of the Armenian state, it is not the Diaspora or half Armenians and certainly, it is not a Armenian that has replaced his or her identity with pop culture. Me, you, or anyone in the Diaspora are already a casuality of emigration, we are on our way to becoming a ingredient of the "melting pot". Second of all, I never emigrated from Armenia, stop assuming things. When "immigration" was the new "trend", my family had no realitives in the United States nor was Armenia a state, we are one of the earliest Armenian families in the United States. My family has strong ties to the United States government, a lot of them served in the military as mechanics during World War 2.

The point is, "asking for help" is not a sin, but justifying emigration based on the false notions that "Diaspora can help Armenia" is dangerous and ridiculous. First, it emphasises emigration over state building and, second, it creates a justification to emigrate and to assimilate.

If you want isolate yourself from the rest of the world why have you learn English isn’t that an adaptation, so you may be here in this forum that no words in Armenian are spoken to spread hate and segregation.

You stupid retard, I never said learning english is westernizing. Learning English is useful, I have no problem with this. However, what is the problem is when you adopt the ways of western state into your own culture, this is "westernization" (i.e. my space, facebook, Brittney Spears, "friends", starbucks, and all forms of "American blue jeans", which is a metaphor for "American culture" that has evolved into pop culture over the course of the 20th century).

Without the help from half Bastards like Jojo Lots of 100% Armenians would suffer.
I have learned long ago not to discriminate against others.
Because my grandfather used to say he was one hundred 100% Italian and he did not like Blacks, did not want anything to do with them. He would not allowed his kids to even play with a black kid, till the day he suffer a serious accident and the only one that could help with his blood transfusion was a black person… He sure learned his lesson.
He chose life---Self Preservation

You are mixing my ideas with your personal experiences. What is the reality I am getting at? READ THIS CAREFULLY, you live in a non segragated society, which is fine, you can choose to do what ever it is you want to do, IT IS NOT UP TO ME TO DECIDE WHAT YOU SHOULD DO. HOWEVER, when you try to interupt my way of life with these "ideas" that are wrong and will lead to the extinction of my people, then you have crossed the line and it is up to me as a Armenian to defend my interests. I don't care what you do, what your experiences are, the reality is that you are a Italian-American. You live, breath, and eat American culture everyday of your life, this has a profound affect on you and eventually, the final effect is that you have fully assimilate and become part of the American community, which is fine and dandy. However, when you in no way can realate to the Italian way of life in Italy, this is the reality, because your political, economical, and social interests have interesected with that of the United States. This kid is not Armenian because there exists no Armenian software in him, yes, he is a great human being, but he is not Armenian, he is American, does this register? A great example of a half Armenian is Garry Kasparov, when asked about his background he replied with:

"Yes I am born in Baku and I am half Armenian-half xxxish but my native
tongue is Russian, my culture is Russian, my education is Russian. At
the end of the day Soviet Union was the success of Russian Empire which
was multinational multi-confessional state and as long as we live in
the same state I'm part of this state as much as President Putin but I
don't have to run for Presidency in Russia to feel good about myself. I
already completed more than many people could have dreamed of..."

Kasparov, the greatest chess player agrees with me, and furthermore, David Nalbandian (Argentine tennis player) when asked "do you feel part of the Armenian people", he replied with, "I never been there, so is quite tough to feel that way. Just a little bit, yes". What exactly is this "little bit"? God knows, essentially, we don't have a large enough sample to go one way or the other, but like I stated earlier, MOST ARMENIANS THAT MARRY OUT DILUTE THEIR IDENTITY AND CUT THEIR TIES TO THE STATE AT THE ROOT, now, DOES THIS MEAN YOU SHOULD OR SHOULD'NT MARRY OUT? I don't know and I don't care, it is a individual decision, but once you do there is no way you can "push" your kid to be Armenian, the reality is, he or she is only half Armenian, the reality is that this child adopted the Armenian identity from a marginalized Armenian to begin with, the reality is that this child lives in a new nation with new values, and finally, the most important factor, the other half is non Armenian, the identity that is constructed is a new one.

I don't want to repeat myself with regards to the macro affect on Armenia and Armenian communities (i.e. fragmentation, division, and destruction).

You are Funny saying you don't want to help JOJO, who asked for your help, he does not need your help, but is the other way around yourself or even someone you know may have recieved help from JOJO.

THAT IS FINE, I never asked for anyones help, you're the one that tried to peddle him like some 2 dollar hoe on a street corner. HE IS A AMERICAN HELPING THE AMERICAN STATE, get that through your thick primative skull. He is not Armenian, he is not in Armenia, he is a mixed identity that is the product of the American state.

[Virgil]

Re: A few points I would like to refute and make a final statement on

No ... and no "we" are not going in circles you are. You repeat the same argument over and over about how westernization is going to ruin Armenia yet here you are on a Western forms using your qwerty keyboard to communicate in English ... probably drinking a coke product or surrounded by Western goods.

Actually, I am vegetarian and eat healthy, I am pretty slim and fit, furthermore, you are going in circles, my argument has nothing to do with "hate", but the reality is that you are not Armenian, you are a American of Armenian ancestory that is a wigger, you are "westernized", live with it and accept it. I on the other hand am full Armenian, I grew up in a Armenian home, surrounded by loving Armenain parents, I can go back to Armenia, I can go there because I can reintegrate myself into a white, Christian, and monoethnic and monoracial society, you can't.

This is assimilation, but what you are trying to do is change this and make it socially prudent to make such rash decisions regarding one's identity when in fact in the long run this creates fragmentation and leads to extinction. There is no denying this, this is the reality, stop living in a dilusional state. You have two loyalties, two identitys, but you are neither Armenian or non Armenian, you are American, you have become a ingredient in the "melting pot".

So after all this halfie talk you consider me an Armenian LMAO ok, ok, a useless one, but one all the same pftftftfwhahhahhahahaaaa!!! What logical fallacy are you talking about that emanated from me? <-Virgil will not answer. I just pointed out that you altered the definition of racist and racism to suit your own selfish purposes.

"An argumentum ad populum (Latin: 'appeal to the people'), in logic, is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all people believe it; it alleges that 'If many believe so, it is so.' In ethics this argument is stated, 'If many find it acceptable, it is acceptable.'"

In your case you continually spew out the garbage of the "melting pot", I don't care about the "melting pot", I know, United states is a "melting pot". Armenia is not the United States and Armenians are not Americans. The popular belief that "multiculturalism" is the "greatest thing ever", when in fact it leads to marginalization, a homogenized people, and in theory is a form of cultural genocide. There exists no positive benefit to an individual, it is only beneficial to a multiracial and multiethnic state that wants to mix everyone together in order to cut their ties to their old identity, thus, replacing this isolation with loyalties to a new state.

"Fallacy of the Consequent--draws a conclusion from premises that do not support that conclusion (e.g., If I have the flu, then I have a sore throat. I have a sore throat. Therefore, I have the flu. Other illnesses may cause sore throat.)"

Essentially, what you do is take my ideas of empowering the Armenian people and spew out the conclusion that somehow I am spreading “hate”. When I clearly have stated:

“When did I bring race into it? Racism is the belief that members of one race are intrinsically superior or inferior to members of other races, when did I ever mention that "Armenians are superior or inferior to any other race"? NEVER, my argument has never been based on biological differences and first of all, Armenians are not a "race" you idiot, they are part of white race, second of all they are a ethnic group, and third of all, if anyone is a racist it is you because you do view "Armenians as being superior to any other race" because automatically you impose a identity on the child ignoring the fact that he is half Armenian.”

Like I posted earlier, this is hate, racism, and bigotry:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FsRiy-1PZ8w

"An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: 'argument to the man', 'argument against the man') consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject."

Why this fallacy? YOU HAVE ATTACKED ME AT ALL LEVELS BY CALLING ME RACIST! Not once have you attacked the idea, I don’t even think you know what it is I am talking about, which is fine, but don’t call me racist or attach negative connotation to my arguments. They make absolute sense, it is only to those that have a interest in discrediting me and are disillusioned with the reality that try to attack me.

"Why doesn’t every race isolate themselves from anyone who isn't a full 100% if it is soo beneficial and critical to cultural and racial preservation?

They do, on a micro level people are attracted to people of the same culture and this is called “connecting with ones identity”. You can not take a person of Japanese identity and put him in room full of American cowboys and ask them to bond. It is only natural to be attracted to familiarity and furthermore, societies that have been mono-ethnic and mono-racial have survived. Every civilization that has mixed nationality with ethnicity and race has not survived. A good example is the Romans, they were once “Romans”, but because they diluted themselves and transformed the Roman identity with nationality, as Rome was sacked so did the idea of a unique people known as the “Romans”. This is true whenever an ethnic group spreads itself thin and picks quantity over quality; this is how civilizations crumble, how a people go extinct, and how empires decline, this is the reality.

But again, I don’t care what you do or who you bond with, this is your choice, I am just revealing to you the realities of this decision and stopping the idiot Armenians that want to change thousands of years of values for their own interests. They are leading the Armenian people to extinction.

If you want to help your nation shouldn't you start on your corner instead of bickering with no point or end in sight here? As JoJo posed the question and you avoided answering "What have you done to make a difference that is even remotely close to what this 7-year old has done?"

Yes, it is true I should start on a corner, but his corner should be located in Armenia, all other ventures are fruitless and only contribute to the decline of the Armenian people and state. I use to believe in the “justification” of the Diaspora, but the reality is that this “justification” is a selfish excuse to avoid state building. The best way a state can develop is at the micro level with individual people supporting the legitimacy of the state by wanting to live in the state regardless of war, famine, economic depression, and political instability.

Well I answered your Iran question but I suppose the questions I posed above are just a bit too real for you to answer. I mean at the very least if you are going to continue to call me derogatory names, which is a clear violation of the forum rules here, then maybe at the least you can man up and answer those questions ... I won't hold my breath.

When did you answer the “my question”? I am not calling you names, but it’s in this reality we live in and it is in this reality that humanity has adopted nationalism and free market system as the universal political and economic doctrines. I am just highlighting the rules of the nationalism, of the nation state, a nation exists because there are a unified group of people that want to live within that nation, that want to live under the banner of that respective nation. A nation ceases to exist when the people give up and emigrate out; this leads to the decline of a nation and ultimately its fall.

You are a product of the American media and culture. I am as well, but at least my fundamental Armenian values and love for myself have not been compromised through multiculturalism and assimilation. You should consider this a wake up call to give up your “wigger ways”, but you won’t and because you have opted to adapt and accept the full-blown affects of American culture on you. It is up to me and Armenians like me to stop this degeneration from spreading or else the national drive will compromised. If we opt to accept you and people like you, full or half Armenian, then we also must forfeit the drive of the Armenian people in Armenia. Like I said, it is very easy for you to live in relative stability and claim to be “Armenian”, but it is another thing to live in the armpit of the world and adhere to nation building when your struggle to build nation has lost its intrinsic and intangible values. What is stopping anyone from emigrating when you or I exist and claim to be “Armenian”, while the state building Armenians are struggling? Nothing and the reality is that we are developing a separate identity, while they are developing the Armenian identity and nation.

I can sit here and listen to you call me names all day. It just shows what a pathetic attempt you are making to get a rise out of me.

No, you should not think about me, you should think about how you were robbed of your identity and culture, why you are emulating the African-American, and why you are actually on these forums to begin with if you are not willing to defend Armenian values and the Armenian identity. This is a beginning, you know I don’t blame you parse, you did not opt to be brought up in the “melting pot”, but it’s a reality you and your parents have to accept, this is as “real” I can get with you.

You really show us what kind of a man you are by attacking this 7 year old boy. What kind of manners and values do they teach in Armenia if this is how one of you turned out? You think I give Armenians a bad name?!?! LMAO Well I'm not the one attacking a 7-year-old boy so that's all you.

Yes, exactly, I am “really” showing you what it means to be Armenian, to champion Armenian values and convictions. Understand the value in an object is the value others see in it, if you see no value in being Armenian others won’t as well, slowly, the Armenian identity will be supplemental. Eventually, extrapolating this, the identity will reduced to nothing and Armenians will be reduced to a footnote of history.

Seriously as JoJo stated how much Western money pours into Armenia everyday? Here you are biting the hand that feeds you, and, in ostracizing the Diaspora, you cut off your nose to spite your face. Yet in your mind you are supposed to be representative of a "good" Armenian? Don't make me laugh. You don't even constitute a good human being if you even remotely believe in what you write here.

Yes, exactly, I am ostracizing them because the Diaspora is treating Armenia like caged pet. The Armenian state will only flourish if people opt to live in it. The Diaspora will fail if their base lacks any push to reintegrate themselves in the homeland. Furthermore, like I mentioned earlier, the idea that aid and aid will help Armenia becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, it (a) destroys the intrinsic motivation to move back and (b) demotivates anyone to state in the homeland.

Do you even consider yourself a Christian? If the answer is "Yes" then that's seriously laughable ...

What does my religious orientation have to do with my point of view? Are Turks and Americans not religious? Yes, but they are not stupid like Armenians are by picking religion over nationality. The expansion of the Turkish and American state supercedes the religious views of the state. To Armenians, Christianity has only become a means to justify more assimilation, the logic is “I am Christian, therefore, I am Armenian” when in fact Christianity is itself a foreign belief. Rather it should always be “I am Armenian, because I am Armenian”.

If you must know, no, I don’t consider myself “Christian”, however, because that is what was passed on to me I don’t want to turn my back on my religion, it is no different than how pagan Armenians turned their backs on their pagan beliefs and destroyed their ancient heritage. Sadly, Christianity is all we have now that connects us to our land and heritage. It is the Armenian churches on Turkish soil that creates the bridge between the Armenians of the antiquity to the modern Armenian people.

lmao @ Virgil ...
Being overly pro any race is a form of racism. Since you seem incapable of writing English sentences properly it doesn't surprise me that you are incapable of understanding the definition and usage of racism and racist. Obviously English is NOT your first language and you very far from mastering it or even handling a simple conversation.

Shut the xxxx up, again you are attacking me. I am not writing a essay, I am just casually typing, of course their will exist mistakes. And if you are not “pro any race”, why the xxxx are you here? Go to a non-Armenian forum.

[Virgil]

Re: A few points I would like to refute and make a final statement on

Furthermore...

Anyway music is a universal language and no genre belongs to any race of pal so hip hop, punk or whatever can be performed by anyone anywhere and they still retain their original cultural identity. OH and as far as modern Armenian music goes if you think the trance Euro Trash cookie cutter crap I've heard here is unique to Armenia then you know nothing about music. Not to mention that trance is just an offshoot of Techno, which was developed in the blackest of black cities by the blackest of black musicians (Detroit and Juan Atkins to start). Taking that thought even further Rock and Roll was created out of Rhythm and Blues, which was an offshoot of Jazz, ALL created by African Americans. So looks like whether I listen to hip hop or you listen to modern Armenian music we both are listening to musical styles that have their traditions deeply rooted in the African tradition.

You are stupid, listen stop justifying being a wigger, you are NOT BLACK, YOU ARE WHITE. You need to start living the real world. You have no idea what the “black man” went through, sadly, I don’t even think you understand what Armenians went through to have the privilege of being Armenian. Your logic to somehow sound deep and intelligent is just another justification of your actions and is sign of idiocy. We can extrapolate your logic to Turkish music. Turkish music is music, it is a “universal” as you say, but the reality is that identity is more than just some “dance” or “musical beats”, identity is the set of values that has been passed on generation after generation, it is the history of a people through cultural expansion and cultural oppression. If music was so “universal” Armenians wouldn’t have gotten axed, stop being naïve.

"Yes, this idea of "adapting" is dangerous”

Yes, it is a very serious problem, when you adapt you cut your ties to your homeland and justify assimilation. Furthermore, instead of normally just assimilating and moving on, you are trying to “adapt”. This means you are accepting the ravages of assimilation as “cultural progression”, eventually, if your people have such a large Diaspora this leads to extinction, reread my earlier posts. Like I stated earlier, you are the poster child of “why not to assimilate” and furthermore, no Armenian wigger can claim he is “cultural intact” because being a wigger and saying you are “cultural intact” is an oxymoron, you are the hand job of the host nation.

[Lamb Boy]

Re: A few points I would like to refute and make a final statement on

”I can go there because I can reintegrate myself into a white, Christian, and monoethnic and monoracial society, you can't.”

Thank God. Especially since you later call your homeland an armpit!! LOL

”This is assimilation, but what you are trying to do is change this and make it socially prudent to make such rash decisions regarding one's identity …”

NO I am not I think that people should feel free to pursue whatever endeavors they want to without fear of being called names or being ostracized from their ethnic group.

”… when in fact in the long run this creates fragmentation and leads to extinction.”

No it doesn’t! Where’s your proof? Extinction?? Of what? Culture, or an entire species of ppl?

”There is no denying this, this is the reality, stop living in a dilusional state. You have two loyalties, two identitys, but you are neither Armenian or non Armenian, you are American, you have become a ingredient in the "melting pot".

I don’t have a problem with this … you do

"An argumentum ad populum (Latin: 'appeal to the people'), in logic, is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all people believe it; it alleges that 'If many believe so, it is so.' In ethics this argument is stated, 'If many find it acceptable, it is acceptable.”

If you could cite an example of where I made appeal to the ppl by stating something I felt they would all agree on? Since when is an argument to the ppl considered invalid!?! I just want to illustrate how ppl use these devices as if that ends the argument or nullifies a previous argument when in fact IT DOES NOT.

"In your case you continually spew out the garbage of the ‘melting pot’”

No I have not and do not … is there a Latin term for an argument based on lies?

"I don't care about the "melting pot", I know, United states is a "melting pot". Armenia is not the United States and Armenians are not Americans.”

What is your point here? It seems like you were trying to sound intelligent, again, although no one said anything about melting pot except for you.

"The popular belief that "multiculturalism" is the "greatest thing ever", when in fact it leads to marginalization, a homogenized people, and in theory is a form of cultural genocide. There exists no positive benefit to an individual, it is only beneficial to a multiracial and multiethnic state that wants to mix everyone together in order to cut their ties to their old identity, thus, replacing this isolation with loyalties to a new state.”

A new culture is being born at the same time. It is your subjective opinion that the old culture is somehow “better”. There isn’t a way to quantify the subjective value of any culture.

"Fallacy of the Consequent--draws a conclusion from premises that do not support that conclusion (e.g., If I have the flu, then I have a sore throat. I have a sore throat. Therefore, I have the flu. Other illnesses may cause sore throat.)"

Here we go again. I like how you use a random example of this device rather than just quote me. Wonder why? The example you pose is stupid. You can deduce that you have the flu from a sore throat IF there is more evidence to back up the claim. Such as everyone at work had the flu except for me so the LOGICAL conclusion would be I must have caught the flu since I spend the vast majority of my time at work. THEN, if that isn’t enough, you can to a doctor and find out for sure. IF it happens to be the case that you have the flu then your logic and assertions were right all along. Finally since the flu is a form of a virus most people use the phrase as a figure of speech to convey that notion that they are sick so you’re never really wrong in saying I have the flu if any flu like symptoms surface.

“Essentially, what you do is take my ideas of empowering the Armenian people and spew out the conclusion that somehow I am spreading “hate”. When I clearly have stated: “When did I bring race into it?"

No I do not. It’s your belief that Armenians that are not 100% calling themselves Armenian is somehow detrimental to the actual country of Armenia. This is where you and I disagree … I don’t feel that the Diaspora referring to themselves as Armenian takes anything away from the Armenian culture IN Armenia, but you do. I think you are wrong.

"Racism is the belief that members of one race are intrinsically superior or inferior to members of other races …”

This is not a complete definition. I already responded to this EXACT paragraph that you decided to bring up here AGAIN. My response was posting the U.N. Charter definition of racism, which you’ll continue to ignore. Which one of us is going in circles?

" … when did I ever mention that "Armenians are superior or inferior to any other race?”

It’s implicit in your essays. Unless you feel that ideas cannot be implied.

"NEVER my argument has never been based on biological differences and first of all, Armenians are not a "race" you idiot, they are part of white race, second of all they are a ethnic group, and third of all, if anyone is a racist it is you because you do view "Armenians as being superior to any other race" because automatically you impose a identity on the child ignoring the fact that he is half Armenian.”

Yet ANOTHER previously posted paragraph this time it was directed at JoJo, nice usage of the word idiot. I can’t believe you reposted your INCORRECT definition(s) of race and ethnicity. LOL I already replied to this idea and I am not going to let you send me around this cycle again. You’re using self defining terms to suit your own purpose and it’s a really weak and lame way of trying to make a point.

"An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: 'argument to the man', 'argument against the man') consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject."

LIKE WIGGER?? LMAO Wigger isn’t a CHARACTERISTIC to you? You called JoJo and idiot … that’s not a characteristic? Basically every time you say wigger it is a direct attack on me and One Way (lol), and the cultural and predominately musical choices I have made in my life. I really don’t care unless you try to convince me that you ARE NOT using ad hominems. In saying this over and over … creating a thread about it, which hilariously NO ONE has responded to (LMAO AGAIN @ YOU) … you are not only attacking me but at the same time you are trying to appeal to the majority of members here since you are arrogant enough to believe that they all agree with you.

Wigger is a derogatory term that means white -igger … I can’t think of another word in the English language that has caused so many problems with race relations. Yet you throw it around like it were a proper label. lol Then you’re like where am I being racist? How did I use an ad hominem.?” Here you are again …

You obviously have something major against African Americans but are not enough of a man to admit it. Just admit it and we can move on.

"Why this fallacy?” <-referring to ad hominem

It is not a fallacy! I just proved that’s what you’re doing without a doubt above.

"YOU HAVE ATTACKED ME AT ALL LEVELS BY CALLING ME RACIST!”

ALL CHARACTERISTIC LEVELS ARE BASED ON RACE?? Please … cry me a river.

”Not once have you attacked the idea, I don’t even think you know what it is I am talking about, which is fine, but don’t call me racist or attach negative connotation to my arguments. They make absolute sense, it is only to those that have a interest in discrediting me and are disillusioned with the reality that try to attack me.”

What idea is there to attack?? Your whole argument is one big empty thought that has no substance behind it. You think that the Diaspora is going to ruin Armenia, which you haven’t backed up with any empirical evidence. Probably because there isn’t any to report on. Additionally it is your subjective opinion that we are the cause of the downfall of Armenia by calling ourselves Armenian. That’s all there is to all this crap … the Diaspora is ruining true Armenian culture.

”They do, on a micro level people are attracted to people of the same culture and this is called “connecting with ones identity.”.

Really Virgil? Is that what it’s called? Did you just make that up too? WHAT DO YOU THINK I AM DOING HERE?? I was TRYING to connect with my ethnic culture to assimilate more Armenian values and perhaps the language into my life!! Then in the “Half Armenian” thread you basically told me that A. I wasn’t Armenian and that B. I should just be an American and give up trying to have any instilled Armenian culture or values. So this is how you “help” the Armenian cause right? By telling the Diaspora that they are worthless non-Armenians right?

”You can not take a person of Japanese identity and put him in room full of American cowboys and ask them to bond. It is only natural to be attracted to familiarity and furthermore, societies that have been mono-ethnic and mono-racial have survived.”

Like the indigenous tribes of Africa and South America? I’m sure that’s how you want Armenia and Armenians to end up … as a footnote on a National Geographic Explorer.

”Every civilization that has mixed nationality with ethnicity and race has not survived. A good example is the Romans, they were once “Romans”, but because they diluted themselves and transformed the Roman identity with nationality, as Rome was sacked so did the idea of a unique people known as the “Romans”

Yeah and the Romans became a new culture and society called Italians that now consider themselves ONE cultural identity. This brings me back to what I stated earlier that while one culture is dissolving another is being created. It’s totally subjective whether or not you feel that the new culture is better or worse than the old. This also ties into the “When will being American be considered an ethnicity” thread I created in the Intellectuals section of this forum.

”This is true whenever an ethnic group spreads itself thin and picks quantity over quality; this is how civilizations crumble, how a people go extinct, and how empires decline, this is the reality.”

No this is not true at all wise sage. I just showed how the Italian culture was born after the decline of the Roman Empire. No one “went extinct” they were still there after the fall. This is why I mentioned the Catch-22 book and the old Italian man … because it has everything to do with this discussion. You make it sound like “The Rapture” occurs or something crazy like that. People don’t go anywhere unfortunately.

”But again, I don’t care what you do or who you bond with, this is your choice, I am just revealing to you the realities of this decision and stopping the idiot Armenians that want to change thousands of years of values for their own interests. They are leading the Armenian people to extinction.”

If you didn’t care who I bonded with then you wouldn’t refer to me as a wigger now would you? And I’m not the one who is trying to change a 1000 years of values to suit my own interest. I WAS TRYING TO BOND WITH ARMENIANS BEFORE YOU OPENED YOUR BIG YAPPER!!

”Yes, it is true I should start on a corner, but his corner should be located in Armenia, all other ventures are fruitless and only contribute to the decline of the Armenian people and state. I use to believe in the “justification” of the Diaspora, but the reality is that this “justification” is a selfish excuse to avoid state building. The best way a state can develop is at the micro level with individual people supporting the legitimacy of the state by wanting to live in the state regardless of war, famine, economic depression, and political instability.”

YOU DON’T EVEN LIVE IN ARMENIA?!?!?! LOLOLOLOLOL Where do you live?? In America like me? L.A.? Why are you not living in Armenia?? All this talk and at the end of the day you are what you are complaining about!! OPEN YOUR EYES!!

When did you answer the “my question?”

When I wrote “No and No” in referring to whether my ppl came from Iran or not.

I am not calling you names …

Like wigger, idiot, and jacka$$??? You sir are full of ____!

[Lamb Boy]

Re: A few points I would like to refute and make a final statement on

”… but it’s in this reality we live in and it is in this reality that humanity has adopted nationalism and free market system as the universal political and economic doctrines. I am just highlighting the rules of the nationalism, of the nation state, a nation exists because there are a unified group of people that want to live within that nation, that want to live under the banner of that respective nation. A nation ceases to exist when the people give up and emigrate out; this leads to the decline of a nation and ultimately its fall.”

This is your sad reality and not mine. Armenian culture isn’t going anywhere as long as I am alive and can still contribute what little I know. You could teach me more but you’d rather ostracize me. Like I’d ever stop being proud of my ancestry or stop telling people about my ethnic background … like I have a choice with a middle and last name such as mine and all the hair to boot. This is why I consider myself Armenian because I always had to defend my background from racists. While they were standing there being smug about my last name I’d make it a point to also tell them about the genocide because THAT IS SOMETHING I WILL NEVER LET ANYONE DENY OR REMAIN IGNORANT ABOUT!! So carry on with your defeatism attitude I’ll remain positive about the outlook for Armenia and Armenians.

“You are a product of the American media and culture. I am as well, but at least my fundamental Armenian values and love for myself have not been compromised through multiculturalism and assimilation.”

You make it seem like there is something wrong with growing up American when there is NOT! Then you imply that Armenian values are somehow “better” than American values which is your subjective opinion, BUT, and here is the important thing, in doing this you imply a racist attitude by insinuating that Armenian values are better than American values. We have already established that being an American IS in fact a racial or ethnic type as defined by the U.N. Charter so to imply one is better than the other is a form of racism. You think Armenians are better than Americans … admit it.

“You should consider this a wake up call to give up your “wigger ways”… “

Nothing implied or veiled there! You are just coming right out with the racist comments now!

… but you won’t and because you have opted to adapt and accept the full-blown affects of American culture on you. It is up to me and Armenians like me to stop this degeneration from spreading or else the national drive will compromised.”

More implied racism as you used the word degeneration, which always has a negative connotation attached to it. In this case degeneration means for Armenian values to change into American values … a degenerative process right?

”If we opt to accept you and people like you, full or half Armenian, then we also must forfeit the drive of the Armenian people in Armenia.”

So even if a 100% Armenian enjoyed listening to hip hop you wouldn’t accept them as Armenian? Can you please explain? Are you afraid that they will bring this “horrible” culture back to the motherland and ruin Armenian culture from the inside out? You’re basically saying that if you like hip hop you aren’t Armenian. That’s really what this is all about.

Once again why stop there? Do they have universities in Armenia with music programs? Do they have Jazz ensembles? If so you should refer to those ppl as wiggers as well since Jazz is the 1st original AFRICAN American Art form. Also anyone who plays a Rock or Blues progression on a keyboard or guitar would have to fit into your wigger category.

Let’s keep going … punk came out of rock and DUB so that’s hella wiggery. What do you listen to wigger? Trance beats that came from Techno which was created in Detroit by a ton black musicians. You want to escape the influences of African American music then stick a drill in your ear. Don’t even to try argue this with me because I am music major TWICE over and I have dedicated my whole life to music and sound. I bet you can’t even play an instrument.

The fact that you associate hip hop with a singular race although it has been around since the mid seventies just shows how little you know about the culture. The pictures you posted were of ppl who listen to Gangsta Rap and NOT hip hop … a major difference you obviously know nothing about …

”Like I said, it is very easy for you to live in relative stability and claim to be “Armenian”, but it is another thing to live in the armpit of the world and adhere to nation building when your struggle to build nation has lost its intrinsic and intangible values. What is stopping anyone from emigrating when you or I exist and claim to be “Armenian”, while the state building Armenians are struggling? Nothing and the reality is that we are developing a separate identity, while they are developing the Armenian identity and nation”

Who wants to live in the Armpit of the world? I already have twice … Atlanta and Detroit LMAO!!! You make the decision to move to Armenia seem so attractive!! How long, in generations, do you think it will take to turn things around? Why do Armenian ppl leave everyday? In all honesty that’s THE BEST ARGUMENT YOU’VE MADE!! Congrats I actually see your point, although I still don’t completely agree with it.

”No, you should not think about me, you should think about how you were robbed of your identity and culture, why you are emulating the African-American, and why you are actually on these forums to begin with if you are not willing to defend Armenian values and the Armenian identity.”

I was raised American so I wasn’t robbed of anything. Emulating the African-American?
Once again hip hop is too old to be considered uniquely African-American. That’s how you see it because your world is black and white. How sad … OH and I have defended being Armenian my whole life as I previously stated.

”This is a beginning, you know I don’t blame you parse, you did not opt to be brought up in the “melting pot”, but it’s a reality you and your parents have to accept, this is as “real” I can get with you.”

I don’t have a problem with this and I disagree that America is a melting pot at all. Go to any major city in America and you will find Little Tokyo or Little China or Little Italy or Little Armenia. Does that sound like a melting pot to you? America is a big economic pie that every ethnic group wants a piece of, period.

”Yes, exactly, I am “really” showing you what it means to be Armenian, to champion Armenian values and convictions. Understand the value in an object is the value others see in it, if you see no value in being Armenian others won’t as well, slowly, the Armenian identity will be supplemental. Eventually, extrapolating this, the identity will reduced to nothing and Armenians will be reduced to a footnote of history.”

I totally see the value in being Armenian, but by attacking a 7 year old boy you really show us what values and Armenian convictions YOU were raised with … You are a champion of the Armenian ppl? Lord knows where the Armenian ppl would be without you protecting them by blasting a 7 year old boy. Are you serious? You ACTUALLY believe that by attacking a 7 year old you somehow strengthen the Armenian Nation?

”Yes, exactly, I am ostracizing them because the Diaspora is treating Armenia like caged pet.”

How?

”The Armenian state will only flourish if people opt to live in it.”

You just called it an armpit. Boy you really are useful to the Armenian cause. I’m sure everyone reading this wanted to instantly move back after you called Armenia that!

”The Diaspora will fail if their base lacks any push to reintegrate themselves in the homeland.”

I was doing something along those lines until you came along and bit my head off!

Furthermore, like I mentioned earlier, the idea that aid and aid will help Armenia becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, it (a) destroys the intrinsic motivation to move back and (b) demotivates anyone to state in the homeland.”

Do you even know what a self fulfilling prophecy IS? Obviously NOT! A GOOD example of a self-fulfilling prophecy would be if your parents always call you stupid and you subconsciously never applied yourself in school. That’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. What you are referring to is a crutch that the Armenian ppl need to simply stay afloat. Ethnic endorsement if you will. They need extra money because they do not have enough to make everything work, OBVIOUSLY, otherwise they wouldn’t need “aid and aid” whatever that is!! lmao

”What does my religious orientation have to do with my point of view? Are Turks and Americans not religious? Yes, but they are not stupid like Armenians are by picking religion over nationality”

Now you are bashing YOUR own ppl for the good of all of Armenia, right?

”The expansion of the Turkish and American state supercedes the religious views of the state. To Armenians, Christianity has only become a means to justify more assimilation, the logic is “I am Christian, therefore, I am Armenian” when in fact Christianity is itself a foreign belief. Rather it should always be “I am Armenian, because I am Armenian

If you must know, no, I don’t consider myself “Christian”, however, because that is what was passed on to me I don’t want to turn my back on my religion, it is no different than how pagan Armenians turned their backs on their pagan beliefs and destroyed their ancient heritage. Sadly, Christianity is all we have now that connects us to our land and heritage. It is the Armenian churches on Turkish soil that creates the bridge between the Armenians of the antiquity to the modern Armenian people.”

So you’ll adopt Christianity even though you don’t believe in it? That’s worse than assimilation imo. How fake can you be?

”Shut the xxxx up, again you are attacking me. I am not writing a essay, I am just casually typing, of course their will exist mistakes. And if you are not “pro any race”, why the xxxx are you here? Go to a non-Armenian forum.”

Like I said before Virgil you can’t shut me up! lol I am not just Pro Armenian unlike you. In your mind there is no other ethnic group in the world worth caring about. That’s another point where you and I do not see eye to eye.

So basically I disagree with your assertions about what is causing the destruction of the Armenian people. I think Armenians like yourself do waay more harm than I ever could by presenting yourself on these forums and spreading your crazy uber nationalistic essays … but that’s my opinion. I know you have your supporters although they have been quiet and I have none because no one really likes me here for the same reasons you don’t. I find this appalling since the only real difference is I was raised American and I am a part of the hip hop culture. So weak …

[Virgil]

Re: A few points I would like to refute and make a final statement on

You are stupid and he did help the Armenians by donating money, clothes and sponsors an Armanian Kid so don't tell me waht he does
Stop attacking this little boy.....

xxxx you, you racist, anyone that comes here who is Non-Armenian and claims that "Armenians are into fraud" is a biggot in my book. Most likly you are some degenerate no identity loser that is dating a Armenian. LISTEN, TO WHAT IS IT I AM TELLING YOU, THIS KID IS NOT ARMENIAN, UNDERSTAND? HE LIVES IN THE UNITED STATES. On a daily basis he is being exposed to American culture, what is Armenian about him? Does this register or are you just trying to annoy me? UNDERSTAND THIS FUNDIMENTAL POINT and move on. Identity is socially constructed, his identity is being constructed by Non-Armenian values. Identity is a like a big lego set, each block stems from American values, not Armenian values.

I don't care if he donated all the worlds assets to Armenia, he discovered the cure for cancer, and certainly, I don't care if he is the greatest "grandmaster" of chess, he is not Armenian. He is half Armenian and half Non-Armenian, stop trying to pollute my culture, go to a Italian forum and convince them to "adapt" if you are so "enthusiastic" about "multiculturalism".

The first people to African-Americans niggers were the Italians, I am not calling anyone a "nigger" nor am I being racist and certainly, I am not "stupid", it only takes a few minutes to understand what it is I am saying.

No more replies, we said our peace, leave me alone.

[Virgil]

Re: A few points I would like to refute and make a final statement on

Thank God. Especially since you later call your homeland an armpit!! LOL

Again, stop taking my comments out of the context. The Transcaucus is the "armpit" of the world, it is currently facing economic depression, war over fiefdoms, and imperialistic aggression. Yes, it is the "armpit" of the world compared to the United States. People who opt to live in Armenia should be commended and their hard work should no be pissed away by some half Armenian degenerate wigger loser like yourself.

NO I am not I think that people should feel free to pursue whatever endeavors they want to without fear of being called names or being ostracized from their ethnic group.

Listen wigger, you are not Armenian, you are a American that thinks he is black, also know as as a wigger. I don't know how I can be more blunt with you. They should not "fear" but instead, fess up to the brutal realities they find themselves confronted with. Anyone that looks like this:


I will never ever consider Armenian nor part of the Armenian culture, get that through your skull. YOU are trying to make this kind of "assimilation" socially prudent, don't insult my intelligence.

No it doesn’t! Where’s your proof? Extinction?? Of what? Culture, or an entire species of ppl?

Are you ignorant or just not educated in Armenian history? HELLO? Turkey, Iran, Lebanon, Poland, Romania, and most of the western states. EVERY DIASPORA HAS ASSIMILATED, they are part Armenian, but consider themselves natives of the host nation.

I don’t have a problem with this … you do

And you are telling me you are Armenian? What loyalty do you have but to yourself? You just sealed the deal on my argument, you are a hybrid identity also known a a mut, understand and move on. This is exactly my point, you are a hand job of assimilation, finally, you are brave enough to admit it.

If you could cite an example of where I made appeal to the ppl by stating something I felt they would all agree on? Since when is an argument to the ppl considered invalid!?! I just want to illustrate how ppl use these devices as if that ends the argument or nullifies a previous argument when in fact IT DOES NOT.

You did appeal to the popular opinion by assuming that a society based on "multiculturism" will provide a nurturing atmosphere for the development of ones identity, when in fact, multiculturalism destroy identity, it creates a hybrid culture and usually, it occurs due to marginalization of a ethnic Diaspora. Your opinion is of the majority that are ignorant to the fact that if identity is "socially constructed" then marrying out or having a hybrid baby will have profound affects of the childs identity. Furthermore, raising this child in this "hybrid culture" will only add to the marginalization and identity loss.

No I have not and do not … is there a Latin term for an argument based on lies?

Yes, you do, you are advocating the idea that we can maintain our identity in this "melting pot", when in fact we are all assimilating. Furthermore, the people like yourself are already knee deep in the "melting pot", you are American, not Armenian, not Non-Armenian, but American, this is what you are, stop claiming you are "Armenian".

What is your point here? It seems like you were trying to sound intelligent, again, although no one said anything about melting pot except for you.

No, I am intelligent, I don't just "sound" intelligent. My point is Armenia can not afford to be like the United States, it has to stay monoethnic and monoracial due to the weak population, geographic location, and hostile neighbors. Any fragmentation will cripple the Armenian state.

A new culture is being born at the same time. It is your subjective opinion that the old culture is somehow “better”. There isn’t a way to quantify the subjective value of any culture.

YES, EXACTLY, you are a hybrid identity, the "new culture" of America, you are American, finally, you understand. No, I am not saying "one is better", but if I want to remain Armenian I have to not assimilate or marry out because by doing so I am forfeiting my right to integrate myself back into my homeland. Stop putting words in my mouth and twisting the context of my reply. And yes, I consider my "old culture" better, I love being Armenian, you on the other hand are some degenerate wigger that is so culturally deprived that are just here to "contect" because you can't stand being a wigger anymore. Finally, after years of playing second fiddle to the "black man", you try to grab on to some kind of refuge or identity, but me and people like me, will never allow you to pollute our communities with your degenerate values of putting your Armenian identity second to pop culture.

Here we go again. I like how you use a random example of this device rather than just quote me. Wonder why? The example you pose is stupid. You can deduce that you have the flu from a sore throat IF there is more evidence to back up the claim. Such as everyone at work had the flu except for me so the LOGICAL conclusion would be I must have caught the flu since I spend the vast majority of my time at work. THEN, if that isn’t enough, you can to a doctor and find out for sure. IF it happens to be the case that you have the flu then your logic and assertions were right all along. Finally since the flu is a form of a virus most people use the phrase as a figure of speech to convey that notion that they are sick so you’re never really wrong in saying I have the flu if any flu like symptoms surface.

Wow, talk about being stupid, you said, "which fallacies"? Correct? Correct, therefore, I just pointed it out to you. And furthermore, again, you did get to larger assumption that I was being "racist" when not once have I mentioned anything that has incriminated me of being "racist".

No I do not. It’s your belief that Armenians that are not 100% calling themselves Armenian is somehow detrimental to the actual country of Armenia. This is where you and I disagree … I don’t feel that the Diaspora referring to themselves as Armenian takes anything away from the Armenian culture IN Armenia, but you do. I think you are wrong.

Yes, it is detrimental to the actual country of Armenia, and, no, I am not wrong. If you are brave enough to admit that I am right, you will be brave enough to look at yourself in the mirror and finally admit that you are a product of pop culture (i.e. handjob of American meda, you wigger), whats worse, American pop culture. There is nothing Armenian about you and I refuse to call you Armenian. I will gladly call you American, but never, never will I consider you Armenian. Furthermore, by doing so I am undermining the identity of Armenia and the future of the Armenian state.

This is not a complete definition. I already responded to this EXACT paragraph that you decided to bring up here AGAIN. My response was posting the U.N. Charter definition of racism, which you’ll continue to ignore. Which one of us is going in circles?

You retard, I got my definition from Wikipedia, but if this is not "sufficient" enough, are you going to disagree with the Anti Defamation League as well?

Racism has existed throughout human history. It may be defined as the hatred of one person by another -- or the belief that another person is less than human -- because of skin color, language, customs, place of birth or any factor that supposedly reveals the basic nature of that person.

I HAVE NEVER CLAIMED THAT ANYONE IS LESSA "HUMAN", however, I have claimed that someone can be "less Armenian", this is the reality, either accept or don't reply to me because, we are going in circles, YOUR IDENTITY, IF YOU CHOOSE TO ACCEPT IT, HAS BEEN CONSTRUCTED BY THE INFLUENCES OF THE UNITED STATES, THIS IS THE REALITY. FURTHERMORE, the halfs of yor identity are themselves marginalized and "Americanized". Like I stated earlier, you being a "wigger" and claiming that your Armenian identity is "culturally intact" is a oxymoron.

It’s implicit in your essays. Unless you feel that ideas cannot be implied.

Stop that, stop it, you are a xxxxing annoying me now, WHY THE xxxx ARE YOU HERE? Why come here to the "Armenian club" when you are "alltruistic" and are "preaching" about how "were all equal", if we are "all equal" and have you have no bias, stop pretending you belong to a ethnic group then, stop trying to define a "identity", the very act of defining yourself as part of a collective people is then in your opinion "racism" or "superiorty", right? Right, I have made my point and you, with your comments and lifestyle, have already sealed the deal on my views, stop with the "tit for tat" remarks.

The reality is that you are just here to cling on to something, but are not willing to defend the values of that identity because you can't, you are knee deep in pop culture and the "American way". You are some degenerate wigger that after so many years of playing second fiddle looked at your last name, it had a "ian" and came here trying to "be Armenian". You don't become Armenian overnight, this identity is constructed, over years, over a lifetime, understand this and move on. You don't even want to serve the national interest, you consider yourself Non-Armenian, and prefer being a wigger to being yourself, what makes you Armenian anymore? Absolutly nothing.

Yet ANOTHER previously posted paragraph this time it was directed at JoJo, nice usage of the word idiot. I can’t believe you reposted your INCORRECT definition(s) of race and ethnicity. LOL I already replied to this idea and I am not going to let you send me around this cycle again. You’re using self defining terms to suit your own purpose and it’s a really weak and lame way of trying to make a point.

No Jackass, my definition was derived from reputable source, stop assuming things.

LIKE WIGGER?? LMAO Wigger isn’t a CHARACTERISTIC to you? You called JoJo and idiot … that’s not a characteristic? Basically every time you say wigger it is a direct attack on me and One Way (lol), and the cultural and predominately musical choices I have made in my life. I really don’t care unless you try to convince me that you ARE NOT using ad hominems. In saying this over and over … creating a thread about it, which hilariously NO ONE has responded to (LMAO AGAIN @ YOU) … you are not only attacking me but at the same time you are trying to appeal to the majority of members here since you are arrogant enough to believe that they all agree with you.

Listen wigger, you are the clown here, anyone that claims to be Armenian, but "emulates mannerisms, slangs and fashions stereotypically associated with urban African Americans; especially in relation to hip hop culture" is dillusional because first of all, if we define culture to be "patterns of human activity and the symbolic structures that give such activities significance and importance" then you, wigger, are not Armenian.

Trust me, they did not respond because they disagree with me. No Armenian in their right mind would accept anyone that looks like this:

or this:

or this:


As a full blown Armenian, Armenians call these people "khapek".

Wigger is a derogatory term that means white -igger … I can’t think of another word in the English language that has caused so many problems with race relations. Yet you throw it around like it were a proper label. lol Then you’re like where am I being racist? How did I use an ad hominem.?” Here you are again …

"Race relations", please, you are a joke, you are White, accept this identity, stop trying to emulate black people, this has nothing to do with the "race realitions" within the United States. It just goes to show how marginalized the individual has gotten where he has to emulate another identity when he or she can never understand the struggles of that respective group. Educated African-Americans distance themselves from "ghetto culture" because it is demeaning to their identity and here you are trying to emulate "ghetto culture". Seriously, if anyone needs to be laughed at, it is you, not I. Stop talking on behalf of others, you did this last time and I ignored it, they are adults and respond for themselves. They don't need a wigger to defend their "Armenian rights".

You obviously have something major against African Americans but are not enough of a man to admit it. Just admit it and we can move on.

xxxx you, stop claiming I am racist, you peice of xxxx, I have restated my point enough times so that it goes in your thick wigger skull of yours.

It is not a fallacy! I just proved that’s what you’re doing without a doubt above.

Listen wigger, it would be fallacy if our topic did not have to do with identity, but the reality is, you, a white male that is half Armenian and half Non-Armenian are claiming that you are "Armenian", when in fact the way you act, look, and feel stems from Non-Armenian sources. IN YOUR CASE, you emerse yourself in "ghetto culture", I have no problem with this, but when you try to claim that this culture has no affect on you or that "we should accept you", then yes, wigger it is important to highlight because it goes to show WHAT xxxxING HYPOCRIT YOU ARE.

ALL CHARACTERISTIC LEVELS ARE BASED ON RACE?? Please … cry me a river.

No, wigger, race in it self is a identity, you are born black, like you are born white, like you are born brown. Race defines you as a human being, when you are born black, you are "born black". Being "born black" constitutes the struggles that "blacks" went through, you essentially inherit their struggle and identity. However, this is not about race, I don't want to bring "race" into it.

[Virgil]

Re: A few points I would like to refute and make a final statement on

Furthermore...

What idea is there to attack?? Your whole argument is one big empty thought that has no substance behind it. You think that the Diaspora is going to ruin Armenia, which you haven’t backed up with any empirical evidence. Probably because there isn’t any to report on. Additionally it is your subjective opinion that we are the cause of the downfall of Armenia by calling ourselves Armenian. That’s all there is to all this crap … the Diaspora is ruining true Armenian culture.

NO, don't twist or attack my beutiful idea. YOU CAN'T ADMIT I AM RIGHT, because if you had to admit I am right, your very existence would be in question. Subjective opinion? xxxx you, I am Armenian, my opinion counts, I have a right to say what I think will help my opinion. Empirical evidence? Yeah, since everytime we post a idea on a message board regarding politics and our future we have to attach statistical samples, right? Wrong.

Yes, the Diaspora is going to ruin Armenia because they are choosing to adapt and, slowly, they are accepting foriegn bodies like yourself to "defend the Armenian interest", when in fact, people like you are already a handjob of the American media. You are wigger, how can you honestly defend my interest? YOU ARE WHAT WE SHOULD NOT BE, disattached and emulating other cultures instead of championing your own identity and culture.

Look, I hate to break it to you "Tupac" (No, actually, it feels good), but you claiming to be "Armenian" when (a) you can't speak Armenian, (b) can't read Armenian, (c) are half Armenian, (d) are exposed to American culture, and (d) are already emulting Non-Armenian elements only makes you look like a idiot.

Really Virgil? Is that what it’s called? Did you just make that up too? WHAT DO YOU THINK I AM DOING HERE?? I was TRYING to connect with my ethnic culture to assimilate more Armenian values and perhaps the language into my life!! Then in the “Half Armenian” thread you basically told me that A. I wasn’t Armenian and that B. I should just be an American and give up trying to have any instilled Armenian culture or values. So this is how you “help” the Armenian cause right? By telling the Diaspora that they are worthless non-Armenians right?

No, in my analogy you would be the Japanese "Cowboy" that goes to the ranch thinking he is a "cowboy", but ends up falling off the horse because he can't sit on properly since he is (a) Japanese and (b) not a cowboy. You are not connecting with me and I would rather you don't connect with me or any other Armenians, we already have full Armenians trying to be wiggers, we don't need half Armenians trying to not only be "wiggers", but instead bring in foreign degenerate views into our commmunities. If I were to accept you, I would have to by default accept the idea that "assimilation" is "ok", when we all know that once you assimilate you are commiting identity suicide. YOU HAVE NO ARMENIAN VALUES INSTALLED IN YOU, get that through your skull, you reek of pop culture.

Like the indigenous tribes of Africa and South America? I’m sure that’s how you want Armenia and Armenians to end up … as a footnote on a National Geographic Explorer.

No, I don't want Armenians to expose themselve to fragmentation when they do not have the populations to absord foreigners or foreign ideas. Furthermore, you will never pick your Armenian half over your other half, so, you are a walking example of why I am right and you are wrong. The idea is simple, EVERY TIME YOU MATE WITH SOMEONE THAT IS NON-ARMENIAN, you create fragmentation because the child has two marginalized halfs to his identity, this is the reality. Extrapolate this over successive generations and a people will go extinct. I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU DO, I am not here to play the role of a parent, but PLEASE don't try and insult my intelligence by claiming that "half Armenians" are "Armenian", when in fact I have proved to you already that if we are to assume social construction as the source of one's identity then "half Armenians" or "quarter Armenians" would not be considered Armenian.

Yeah and the Romans became a new culture and society called Italians that now consider themselves ONE cultural identity. This brings me back to what I stated earlier that while one culture is dissolving another is being created. It’s totally subjective whether or not you feel that the new culture is better or worse than the old. This also ties into the “When will being American be considered an ethnicity” thread I created in the Intellectuals section of this forum.

And some how in your degenerate mind of yours this is a good thing? NO, I WANT TO BE ARMENIAN, THIS IS EXACTLY MY POINT, you, don't have the same drive as I do because, you, don't know how to it is to "feel Armenian". Second of all, Romans are not "Italians", stop talking out of your ass, no serious historian will ever even hint at the idea that "Italians" are the continuation of "Romans". This is a corrupted ideology that stems from Europeans trying to project themselves in the past. Romans, like the Hittites, were a people that inhabited what now constitutes Italy, they were no more linked to "Italians" then they were to other Europeans that speak a Romance language. The Roman empire grew. Overtime, the Romans weakened the boundaries of their "identity" to accept immigrants into the Empire. This lead to a "Roman" being anyone that was "Roman" by citizenship. Eventually, when the empire collapsed it also lead to the extinction of the "Roman". Yes, in way "Roman culture" survived in the pockets of the empire, however, the actually "Roman" did not.

No this is not true at all wise sage. I just showed how the Italian culture was born after the decline of the Roman Empire. No one “went extinct” they were still there after the fall. This is why I mentioned the Catch-22 book and the old Italian man … because it has everything to do with this discussion. You make it sound like “The Rapture” occurs or something crazy like that. People don’t go anywhere unfortunately.

Don't patronize me, read my previous reply, you are truly a imbicle, Italians are not Romans. The term "Italian" is a relativly new term that stems from the rise of the "national identity". People go extinct, are you oblivious to the many contemporaries of the Armenian people throughout various time periods? You sure are.

If you didn’t care who I bonded with then you wouldn’t refer to me as a wigger now would you? And I’m not the one who is trying to change a 1000 years of values to suit my own interest. I WAS TRYING TO BOND WITH ARMENIANS BEFORE YOU OPENED YOUR BIG YAPPER!!

I don't want to bond with you, others may, but you represent values that will destroy Armenians. Stop trying to "bond with me", I don't like your bonding, if it means I have to accept a wigger and marginalized Half Armenian, please, don't bond with me.

YOU DON’T EVEN LIVE IN ARMENIA?!?!?! LOLOLOLOLOL Where do you live?? In America like me? L.A.? Why are you not living in Armenia?? All this talk and at the end of the day you are what you are complaining about!! OPEN YOUR EYES!!



When I wrote “No and No” in referring to whether my ppl came from Iran or not.



[/quote=wigger]Like wigger, idiot, and jacka$$??? You sir are full of ____!

No, I have decided to move back to Armenia sometime in the future, this is my goal. However, during my stay here I will not allow you, people like you, or Armenians that are so "cultural deprived" to degrade the Armenian identity into audio cassettes and video tapes.

Yeah, you are a wigger, this is what you are, you are a idiot because you fail to accept the reality that you are not Armenian, and finally, you are the one that is full xxxx, that can claim they are "cultural intact" or "solid material" when pop culture radiates from you and are some degenerate wigger. Like I stated before, you are no good to me as a American nor are you useful to me as Armenian.

[Virgil]

Re: A few points I would like to refute and make a final statement on

This is your sad reality and not mine. Armenian culture isn’t going anywhere as long as I am alive and can still contribute what little I know. You could teach me more but you’d rather ostracize me. Like I’d ever stop being proud of my ancestry or stop telling people about my ethnic background … like I have a choice with a middle and last name such as mine and all the hair to boot. This is why I consider myself Armenian because I always had to defend my background from racists. While they were standing there being smug about my last name I’d make it a point to also tell them about the genocide because THAT IS SOMETHING I WILL NEVER LET ANYONE DENY OR REMAIN IGNORANT ABOUT!! So carry on with your defeatism attitude I’ll remain positive about the outlook for Armenia and Armenians.

Laughable, you are a xxxxing hypocrit, it is a reality, you being a wigger is enough evidence to extrapolate the conclusion that "assmiliation" should not be tolerated if you want to have retain a salvageable Armenian idenity, enough of the identity to allow you to integrate yourself back into the homeland, it at least increases the chances of going back. It helps my argument, hey, fellow members, if you want your descendents to look like this ass clown wigger, please by all means, adapt, and incorporate American pop culture into your Armenian culture.

No, I am not "carrying on my defeatism", you were already defeated at birth. You can go defend the genocide, you can claim you are "Armenian", what ever you do, you as a individual do for yourself. You don't do anything for the Armenian people and certainly, you do anything for me as a American. The reality is this, you are not Armenian because your identity was no constructed by Armenian components, understand this very simple concept of social science, it is a fact, "identity can be socially constucted". When they send Americans to Armenian school they are trying to "socially construct" that childs identity, fine fair, but the reality is that by doing so they are fragmentating themselves. Furthermore, my assumptions were right, thanks for being a walking example.

You make it seem like there is something wrong with growing up American when there is NOT! Then you imply that Armenian values are somehow “better” than American values which is your subjective opinion, BUT, and here is the important thing, in doing this you imply a racist attitude by insinuating that Armenian values are better than American values. We have already established that being an American IS in fact a racial or ethnic type as defined by the U.N. Charter so to imply one is better than the other is a form of racism. You think Armenians are better than Americans … admit it.

STOP CALLING ME RACIST, no, I don't think growing up American is "bad", but the American identity has been substituted by pop culture. Shut up, I never stated there is something "wrong with being American", stop putting words in my mouth. Understand, you are claiming to be "Armenian", I am letting you know that you are not "Armenian" because you are "American", have been breed in the United States, and have only been exposed to a marginalized portion of the "Armenian identity".

Understand, I never said Americans are better, my point for the last time, read carefully, if you live in the United States, you are absorbing culture and values from a Non-Armenian sources. If you should accept any label it should be "American with Armenian ancestry". THIS IS A FACT, YOU ARE NOT ARMENIAN, STOP TRYING TO CLAIM YOU ARE SOMETHING YOUR NOT. YOUR NOT GREEK, YOUR NOT ARMENIAN, YOUR AMERICAN.

Nothing implied or veiled there! You are just coming right out with the racist comments now!

Yeah, yeah, right, I am racist...here is a reality check, you are white, live with it, stop pretending you are black or can understand the "black man". At least admit that you are hand job of corporate America.

More implied racism as you used the word degeneration, which always has a negative connotation attached to it. In this case degeneration means for Armenian values to change into American values … a degenerative process right?

No, its not "racism" or "implied Racism", the reality is that currently in America there exists values that can be considered "degenerate values" by American standards.

So even if a 100% Armenian enjoyed listening to hip hop you wouldn’t accept them as Armenian? Can you please explain? Are you afraid that they will bring this “horrible” culture back to the motherland and ruin Armenian culture from the inside out? You’re basically saying that if you like hip hop you aren’t Armenian. That’s really what this is all about.

Let me explain to you for the last time, I am saying that regardless if you are full Armenian, half Armenian, or quarter Armenian, if you adopt wearing some costume of pop culture (i.e. being a "punk", "rapper", "gangsta", and etc ...) you are not Armenian anymore because the source of these costumes is from the American identity. Its a universal dislike for anything that reeks overtly of pop culture.

Once again why stop there? Do they have universities in Armenia with music programs? Do they have Jazz ensembles? If so you should refer to those ppl as wiggers as well since Jazz is the 1st original AFRICAN American Art form. Also anyone who plays a Rock or Blues progression on a keyboard or guitar would have to fit into your wigger category.

Yes, exactly, we have already taken in foreign elements, we should not take in anymore, do you xxxxing get it? I don't want Armenia becoming the next China, where their identity has been destroyed due to rapid westernization. Do you understand that Europeans fear American cultural influences on their societies as well? France has elected laws to curb American imports because they don't want American influences in their culture anymore.

Furthermore, you know why Turks make fun us? THEY SLAUGHTERED US, but yet we drink "Turkish Coffee" and eat "kabob", we play their instruments, we have incorporated their cultural ways into our culture. Do you know why Persians make fun of us? Because we have Armenians that know more Persian words versus Armenian words, they can not avoid using Persian words when talking Armenian. Again, Persian Armenians know how to make Persian food versus Armenian food, but yet even the Armenian food they can make is not even Armenian in origin. Do you understand why Arabs make fun of us? Because we have incorporated their foods, dances, and music into our own. HOWEVER, if you were to ask any Armenian if these Armenian in origin they will say "yes, we drink 'Armenian coffee', we eat 'Armenian food', and dance to 'Armenian music", stop it, our culture has already gone to xxxx, I am just stoping it from degenerating even further by incorporating American influences on it.

Let’s keep going … punk came out of rock and DUB so that’s hella wiggery. What do you listen to wigger? Trance beats that came from Techno which was created in Detroit by a ton black musicians. You want to escape the influences of African American music then stick a drill in your ear. Don’t even to try argue this with me because I am music major TWICE over and I have dedicated my whole life to music and sound. I bet you can’t even play an instrument.

No, I don't listen to trance and yes, I can play a instrument, it is a duduk, have you heard of this alien instrument? They say it has Armenian origins, however, Persians, Turks, Georgians, Bulgarians, and Greeks have a similar instrument. And what is even more funny, Armenians claim that they were not raveged by "assimilation" and "adaptation". All your replies have strenghtened my argument of why adaptation will lead to extinction and why incorporating foreign values has already reduced our culture into a "mud" culture. I can't beleive you even advocate including more foreign elements in our culture when nothing is left of it anymore, all signs and example of why I am right.

[Virgil]

Re: A few points I would like to refute and make a final statement on

Furthermore...

The fact that you associate hip hop with a singular race although it has been around since the mid seventies just shows how little you know about the culture. The pictures you posted were of ppl who listen to Gangsta Rap and NOT hip hop … a major difference you obviously know nothing about …

What is there to "know about"? Hip hop originated from the African-American community, you are white. Furthermore, whether it is "gangsta rap" or "hip hop", you are emulating a foreign lifestyle and culture, get that through your head.

Who wants to live in the Armpit of the world? I already have twice … Atlanta and Detroit LMAO!!! You make the decision to move to Armenia seem so attractive!! How long, in generations, do you think it will take to turn things around? Why do Armenian ppl leave everyday? In all honesty that’s THE BEST ARGUMENT YOU’VE MADE!! Congrats I actually see your point, although I still don’t completely agree with it.

No, you don't see my point, you are a degenerate loser wigger that is only Armenian when it is socially prudent to be Armenian. Furthermore, stop bringing up the "armpit of the world", when you are taking it out of context. The reality is, wigger, that Armenia is facing economic depression and the only motivation for those Armenians to live their is because they want to preserve the interest of the Armenian people in their homeland. We are no authority to claim we are Armenian and certainly, you as a half Armenian are in no way the epitome of what constitutes a "Armenian". You are some marginalized American that is only connected to Armenians by name, but nothing of you is authentically Armenian. Your attitude, your cloths, your lifestyle, and your future will remain foreign.

I was raised American so I wasn’t robbed of anything. Emulating the African-American?
Once again hip hop is too old to be considered uniquely African-American. That’s how you see it because your world is black and white. How sad … OH and I have defended being Armenian my whole life as I previously stated.

Yes, exactly, you were "raised American", bingo and, no, what is sad is how you a identity was imposed on you instead of accepting the reality and consequences of rash decisions by your parent. Don't cry to me, I, as a Armenian, am not obligated to accept a half Armenian as a Armenian. Go and cry to your Armenian parent of how he was selfish and did not think how multiculturalism will impact the future of his family. I shouldn't take the heat when in fact if I have already decided that it is important for me to marry Armenian if I want to raise family beause I don't want to marginalize my kid any further then he or she will be marginalized by being brought up in a foreign state.

I don’t have a problem with this and I disagree that America is a melting pot at all. Go to any major city in America and you will find Little Tokyo or Little China or Little Italy or Little Armenia. Does that sound like a melting pot to you? America is a big economic pie that every ethnic group wants a piece of, period.

Yeah, it is a melting pot, those cultures have already assimilated, they are just peddling the cultural pickle that they brought over from the "old country". The reality is that at least in the case of someone that is brought up in monoethnic home they have the chance to integrate themselves back into the old country because they are not struggling to find a identity and certainly, do not posses a duel identity. Conversly, someone that is brought up in a multicultural home is struggling to find a identity and place in the world, I highly doubt they will even consider going back to Armenia. This is assmilation and it becomes dangerous when we take "assimilation" and recatagorize it as "adaptation" to justify our own selfish reasons.

I totally see the value in being Armenian, but by attacking a 7 year old boy you really show us what values and Armenian convictions YOU were raised with … You are a champion of the Armenian ppl? Lord knows where the Armenian ppl would be without you protecting them by blasting a 7 year old boy. Are you serious? You ACTUALLY believe that by attacking a 7 year old you somehow strengthen the Armenian Nation?

I am not "attacking" anyone, understand, that child is not Armenian anymore, get that through your skull. He is American, he is neither Armenian or Non-Armenian and I will call anyone out if they say otherwise because it simply is not true.

And when you asked, "How is the Diaspora treating Armenia like a caged pet"? Well for strarters, we confuse "assimilation" for "adaptation". This is the Armenian story, we have been country hoping for the last two thousand years instead of state building. You can try to convince me that we have "never had a opertunity to", but the reality is we finally have a state and the state is going to xxxx, instead of being more nationalistic and rally behind our state, we have resorted to accepting half Armenians as Armenians and adopting the backwardsness of a "spiritual Armenia". We maintain these lies because we want ot justify emigration and assimilation. However, historically, all our Diasporas have gone extinct and now, this redundancy has accelerated emigration becasue the very intrinsic national pride and motivation has been nullified by talks of "maintaining" a identity and culture via "spiritual Armenia" and "spiritual Armenians".

You just called it an armpit. Boy you really are useful to the Armenian cause. I’m sure everyone reading this wanted to instantly move back after you called Armenia that!

No, stop twisting my words, you are taking me out of context, read my previous reply.

I was doing something along those lines until you came along and bit my head off!

You can do what ever you want, but being a wigger and trying to be "Armenian" and claiming you are "cultural intact" when you are not is not "doing somthing about it", it is making the problem worse and allows these actions to be more tolerable in the community.

Do you even know what a self fulfilling prophecy IS? Obviously NOT! A GOOD example of a self-fulfilling prophecy would be if your parents always call you stupid and you subconsciously never applied yourself in school. That’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. What you are referring to is a crutch that the Armenian ppl need to simply stay afloat. Ethnic endorsement if you will. They need extra money because they do not have enough to make everything work, OBVIOUSLY, otherwise they wouldn’t need “aid and aid” whatever that is!! lmao

Yes, I know dam well what "self fullfilling prophecy". If you constantly promote the idea that the "Diaspora can help Armenia" then it begins to justify emigration and assimilation because the "Diaspora can help Armenia", this sure as hell sounds like "a prediction that directly or indirectly causes itself to become true".

Now you are bashing YOUR own ppl for the good of all of Armenia, right?

No, I am not bashing my people. It is the realty they must face, this idea of a "Spiritual armenia" is a dangerous idea when you are living in century where their exists nation states and national identities. It only serves the Diaspora, no one else, and certainly, it does not motivate Armenians in Armenia to further state build.

So you’ll adopt Christianity even though you don’t believe in it? That’s worse than assimilation imo. How fake can you be?

A wigger telling me that I am fake? No you jackass, stop taking the context of statement and twisting it, we had our gods and religion prior to Christianity, but we destroyed them and if I were to the same, the action and future repercussions would be the same as well. Furthermore, our tie to our homeland is via our structures built on top the land, by denouncing Christianity we lose these ties to our homeland.

Like I said before Virgil you can’t shut me up! lol I am not just Pro Armenian unlike you. In your mind there is no other ethnic group in the world worth caring about. That’s another point where you and I do not see eye to eye.

No, you can go ballistic and wave the Armenian flag, that is great, but the reality is that you are who you are and I am who I am. My intentions are not to "degrae the Armenian people", my intentions are to motivate them to be a bit more nationalistic and spend a bit more time thinking about their decisions before reducing and dragging our cultural in mud.

So basically I disagree with your assertions about what is causing the destruction of the Armenian people. I think Armenians like yourself do waay more harm than I ever could by presenting yourself on these forums and spreading your crazy uber nationalistic essays … but that’s my opinion. I know you have your supporters although they have been quiet and I have none because no one really likes me here for the same reasons you don’t. I find this appalling since the only real difference is I was raised American and I am a part of the hip hop culture. So weak …

No, its the reality, you are some wigger, you come here pretending to be "Armenian", but the reality is you fail because you cling to your American identity and embrace pop culture, when in fact it is direclty because of foreign influences and foriegn yoke that Armenians have been reduced to such pittiful depths. Stop appealing to the "emotions" and stop asking people to feel sorry for you, I sure as hell don't becasue I know exactly what kind of mindset goes and marrys out, it is usually the Armenians that are self hating to begin with, but once they do "marry out", they try to impose this on others so they don't feel so isolated. It is very convinient for you to come here and force me to accept you, but from my end, there is no reason why I should accept you unless I agree with you, which I don't. Again, stop asking Armenians to feel sorry for you.