So what on earth makes orthodox monks punch each other?

[Sip]

Re: So what on earth makes orthodox monks punch each other?

One of the funniest videos I've seen on the internet recently has been these idiots beating each other up over Jesus ... and I've seen a LOT of stupid funny videos.

[gmd]

Re: So what on earth makes orthodox monks punch each other?

Hey if you can't throw down for your god then what kind of follower would you be?

[Armanen]

Re: So what on earth makes orthodox monks punch each other?

"who is on the same level as the pope and patriarch of constantinople" That is what i called trivial autonomy. Its like the USA who have an autonomous Orthodox Church but calls itself American Orthodox. They are trivial eventually every province will have some kind of brand of Orthodoxy. And why else is it trivial? Because if we take all the Orthodox churches back to the year 1000AD and they were asked to change or conform the only living church that wouldnt change anything would be Greek Orthodoxy. It's role has always been to preserve the faith as it was before the schizm and before the disolution of the Byzantine empire. That is its importance to other Orthodox faiths. That is why the Patriarch of Constantinople is still recognised in the East, maybe not by the likes of you but certainly by the Orthodox churches in the east.

And you seem to think that Oriental Orthodox Churches sprouted from nowhere? Armenia was for several thousand years a part of Byzantium. Cappadocia (Western Armenia) and the Pontian Mountains North of Turkey were mainly Greek populated for thousands of years. Parts of modern Armenia were considered Byzantine Protected states. And it was during this time that Orthodoxy flourished. Then after 1453AD the Armenian state lost its Protecter state to the Turks of whom grabbed for Byzantine territories eg Western Armenia. From then on the Armenians were left without a head of church because Constantinople was occupied. The Turks forced the Patriarch of Constantinople to be responsible for the Greek populations only. The Armenians then developed a new church heirarchy and established autonimous control over their affairs during Ottoman rule. The last impact was Russian occupation of Armenia where till now the Etchmiadzin is located in Russia.

There should be a re-evaluation of what each Orthodoxy represents because currently it looks like everyone thinks they are different from everyone else where infact they all have the same origin.

So many historical inaccuracies. Just get the f*ck out of here with this bs. You are no better than a turk. Our church is older than yours, is independent from yours, less corrupt and will be around longer!

[Chillaxin]

Re: So what on earth makes orthodox monks punch each other?

As you pointed out it was the greeks who were present when they knew not to be. Since the two churches can't handle themselves properly they have their own days, but too often the greek clergymen decide to stick their nose in Armenian affairs. They got punished by out warrior-monks and will get punished again if they decide to interfere once more.

I concur. They did what they did in order to send a message.

[yerazhishda]

Re: So what on earth makes orthodox monks punch each other?

"who is on the same level as the pope and patriarch of constantinople" That is what i called trivial autonomy. Its like the USA who have an autonomous Orthodox Church but calls itself American Orthodox. They are trivial eventually every province will have some kind of brand of Orthodoxy. And why else is it trivial? Because if we take all the Orthodox churches back to the year 1000AD and they were asked to change or conform the only living church that wouldnt change anything would be Greek Orthodoxy. It's role has always been to preserve the faith as it was before the schizm and before the disolution of the Byzantine empire. That is its importance to other Orthodox faiths. That is why the Patriarch of Constantinople is still recognised in the East, maybe not by the likes of you but certainly by the Orthodox churches in the east.

And you seem to think that Oriental Orthodox Churches sprouted from nowhere? Armenia was for several thousand years a part of Byzantium. Cappadocia (Western Armenia) and the Pontian Mountains North of Turkey were mainly Greek populated for thousands of years. Parts of modern Armenia were considered Byzantine Protected states. And it was during this time that Orthodoxy flourished. Then after 1453AD the Armenian state lost its Protecter state to the Turks of whom grabbed for Byzantine territories eg Western Armenia. From then on the Armenians were left without a head of church because Constantinople was occupied. The Turks forced the Patriarch of Constantinople to be responsible for the Greek populations only. The Armenians then developed a new church heirarchy and established autonimous control over their affairs during Ottoman rule. The last impact was Russian occupation of Armenia where till now the Etchmiadzin is located in Russia.

There should be a re-evaluation of what each Orthodoxy represents because currently it looks like everyone thinks they are different from everyone else where infact they all have the same origin.

Seems like you have never opened up a history textbook in your entire life, because you are in the completely wrong time period. Armenia accepted Christianity in 301 AD and you're talking about the 1400's?!?! St. Gregory the Enlightener was the first Catholicos of Armenia; we were never under any other church's dominion. THe top off is that you claim that Echmiadzin was somehow located in Russia??? Where do come up with this stuff.

This "Ephestion" is either:

1) A Turk
2) A highly brainwashed Greek
3) A wannabe-Greek; look at the link in his sig, it's to a video game forum that's concerned with historical-era games.

Either way, you are highly ignorant of the ecclesiastical structure of the Orthodox Churches and you would do best to do some homework on the subject before claiming (wrongly) that Greeks are the only 'true' Orthodox Church.

[Armenian]

Re: So what on earth makes orthodox monks punch each other?

"who is on the same level as the pope and patriarch of constantinople" That is what i called trivial autonomy.

This is what I call - not being able to accepting reality...

You exhibit typical Byzantine mentality - troublesome, stubborn, ignorant and fanatical. No wonder Armenian clergy don't want Greek clergy around during their services...

What the xxxx is wrong with you people? Don't you have better things to do than bitch over thousand year old theological and administrative nonsense? Why don't you work on freeing your Constantinople from Turks instead of perpetually whining about us miserable Armenians? People like you ran Byzantium and Armenia to the ground. People like you are responsible for the presence of a Turkish state in our historic homeland. Learn from your severe mistakes. Learn from the serious crimes your forefathers committed throughout history. Jeeeezuz, it never stops with you people.

xxxxing amazing!!!

That is why the Patriarch of Constantinople is still recognized in the East, maybe not by the likes of you but certainly by the Orthodox churches in the east.

The Armenian Apostolic Church's theological doctrine is considered to be orthodox in character but the church itself has not been in communion with the Greek Orthodox Church since 451 AD. So, the Greek Patriarch in Turkey means nothing for us Armenians. As a matter of fact, the Armenian Patriarch in Turkey means nothing for the vast majority of Armenians either, but that's another story.

Armenia was for several thousand years a part of Byzantium.

Several "thousand" or hundred? Western Armenia was at times part of the Eastern Roman Empire (also known as Byzantium) and despite Constantinople's best efforts to destroy it Armenia preserved its national identity and its Apostolic church. Your Orthodox forefathers are the primary reason why Turks established themselves in Asia Minor. Your Orthodox forefathers were the primary reason why Armenia was overrun by Seljuk Turks in 1064 AD. Your Orthodox forefathers were the primary reason why Asia Minor plunged into the dark age.

Note: Most glorious times in Byzantine history came when Armenians like Basil II, Tzimiskes, Maurice and Heraklios ruled it.

Here, educated yourself on Byzantine history: http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php?t=10251

Cappadocia (Western Armenia) and the Pontian Mountains North of Turkey were mainly Greek populated for thousands of years.

So? Anyway, the areas you mention were mainly populated by Greek speaking natives. Historically, there never was a "Greece." The nation of Greeks, Greece, is a modern reality.

Parts of modern Armenia were considered Byzantine Protected states.

Please tell me when in Byzantine history was the current territories of Armenia under Byzantine rule. However, the fact of the matter is, historic Armenia was lost to Turks as a result of the deep hatred Byzantines (especially the Greek Orthodox Church) had towards Armenians. As a matter of fact, Armenia's first genocide was at the hands of Byzantines. And the second genocide Armenians suffered was at the hands of those who Byzantines essentially put into power.

Then after 1453AD the Armenian state lost its Protecter state to the Turks of whom grabbed for Byzantine territories eg Western Armenia. From then on the Armenians were left without a head of church because Constantinople was occupied. The Turks forced the Patriarch of Constantinople to be responsible for the Greek populations only. The Armenians then developed a new church heirarchy and established autonimous control over their affairs during Ottoman rule. The last impact was Russian occupation of Armenia where till now the Etchmiadzin is located in Russia.

What ass did you pull this bullshit out of? The head of the Armenian Apostolic Church, the Katolikos, has been based in Armenia since 301 AD and has not had any dealing with your church since 451 AD.

There should be a re-evaluation of what each Orthodoxy represents because currently it looks like everyone thinks they are different from everyone else where infact they all have the same origin.

Ephestion, I suspect that you are young and I also feel that you mean well. And for the record, I like your people. Greeks are a fun people to spend time with when they are not talking nonsense about history, politics or religion... So, some brotherly advise for you. Drop the history and religion stuff and take up playing buzuki...

[skhara]

Re: So what on earth makes orthodox monks punch each other?

One of the funniest videos I've seen on the internet recently has been these idiots beating each other up over Jesus ... and I've seen a LOT of stupid funny videos.

Sip, I am in rare agreement with you except the part about being funny. This is fuc*ing stupid and embarrassing. I don't care who is right here -- clergy men should be last to throw punches.

[Ephestion]

Re: So what on earth makes orthodox monks punch each other?

Your all over agressive. You just missed my points because there is not enough time to elaborate on each and every thing.

1. Armenia accepts Christianity in 301AD Eastern Armenia was Sassanid Territory and Western Armenia was Byzantine Territory at that time. Byzantium was already heavily christian and it was a formality to declare it the Empires faith which Constantine did.

2. I didn't claim the Greeks were the only "true" Orthodox, they are the only Orthodox Church. What I mean by this is that everyone was known as the Katholikoi Ecclisia then the schizm in 1010AD produced for the first time the use of the word Orthodox Church. So essentially the Orthodox church was not Greeks but Greek Orthodoxy is that same Orthodox church. All others have added and deleted stuff. For example Armenian Orthodoxy didn't accept many of the Byzantine eccumenical councils and so forth.

3. I come from Sebastia ancestorally but Im actually from Cyprus. Sebastia is a place you consider Armenia but infact there were more Greeks living there than Armenians before 1921. Now I don't know the exact stats for modern "Western Armenia".

4. Byzantine Armenia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Armenia

5. Im not young im an old fart.

6. Im a fanatic about ancient people....

7. Only the iggnorant arguem the wise man already knows the truth and needs not argue...(Something like that from Socrates) Therefore im learning about you by argueing

[Canada]

Re: So what on earth makes orthodox monks punch each other?

Do not forget that most of the Eastern Orthodox don't like the Greeks because at one time or another they have tried to make us all Greek and that is not forgotten, especially between the people of the church. They forced their language to be used in the church because way they knew that it is the sirest way to take over non-greek population. For that reason the Bulgarian Tzar asked the brothers Cyril and Methody to create the alphabeth and gave an order for the Bible to be translated and written in the Cyrilic, called Church Slavonic, and to be used durin service in all churches in Bulgaria. He also send monks to spread the alpahbeth further norht so other nations could be saved from the Greek influence.

The greeks have no business being in the church when the Aremnian monks and priests were having their service. But they want to stick their noses everywhere, as usual. I don't excuse the behaviour of the Armenian monks but enought is enough obviously. I am not an Armenian but I can understand their frustration. Power to them.

[Ephestion]

Re: So what on earth makes orthodox monks punch each other?

The Septugint Old Testiment was written in Greek ~340 BC. Most of the Christians by 300AD knew Greek. It was considered an international language for the East. The Greeks tried to stop the kind of thing you see in the video. People of the same stock fighting over trivial things. They never made a law to enforce the Greek language. Nationalism post 1800's was responsible for forcing people to learn the National language. The Reason Saint Cyril a native of Thessalonika Greece gave the slavs an alphabet was because for 400 or so years the Byzantines tried to re-Hellenise the Blakans which were primarily Greeks until the SLavs invaded. So Cyril and another monk (forget his name) gave them an alphabet because they were generally too daft or too stuborn to simply learn Greek. The Greeks were notforcing the slavs but they were trying to assimilate them in some way so that they would fight together if need be. Their religion being Orthodoxy made them better allies and it didnt matter as much if they spoke another language.