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A document that sums up our pro-Armenian stance

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  • #41
    Re: A document that sums up our pro-Armenian stance

    This is the book.


    • #42
      Re: A document that sums up our pro-Armenian stance

      Originally posted by Stark Evade View Post
      Looks like a pretty obscure book, at least the name is a start though, thanks.


      • #43
        Re: A document that sums up our pro-Armenian stance

        Actually, if I have some time, I'd definitely like to draw up some schematics of how to best lay this out. It's something I've wanted to do for a long time. Being I'm O/C with being organized, I think I can lay out a very coherent, comprehensive road map for something like this. There were many great discussions on here to help with it (I distinctly remember Winoman going into deep detailed responses on many occasions), and the website we merged with has tons of myth buster and time line material pinned at the top of the boards, as well. I think the first step we need is a list of everything we want to cover. For example...

        Topic I: Armenian Genocide

        1. Maybe start with a link to my summary pinned on the AG boards for a very general background about the history, then follow up with common objections and excuses by Turks, like:

        2. Armenians started the Hammidian and Adan Massacre by violently rebelling, or trying to ethnically cleanse the Muslims from certain provinces

        3. The non-existent Malta Trials prove a genocide never happened

        4. Etc.

        Topic 2: Artsakh Conflict (Hellektor has TONS of great material for this)

        1. Discuss the history (or lack there of) of the Azeri people, and how Azerbaijan is not even a legitimate state.

        2. Discuss the aggression of Azeris against Armenians

        3. Etc.

        And you get the picture. I had planned on doing a Q & A on the genocide summary I did, but haven't gotten around to putting that together yet. But I think we need to start with a brainstorm of everything we want this thread to cover.


        • #44
          Re: A document that sums up our pro-Armenian stance

          Under topic one, I would like a detailed discussion on the nature of the so called "deportations" during WWI. I think this is crucial because this is what denialist sources keep throwing at us.

          The following themes are all discussed in "A Shameful Truth" by Taner Akcam. It is my main reference for the time being and I encourage you all to provide details from other sources that address the following:

          1. The general policy of the Internal Ministry to keep the Turkish army and the parliament out of the deportation operations, instead enlisting civil authorities and the "Special Organization".

          2. The nature of the "Special Organization", the organizers and perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide, created covertly by the CUP Central Committee.

          3. The policy of arming the Muslim populace and disarming the Christian populace in Anatolia.

          4. Nature of duplicity in the telegrams sent by Talaat used to appease German concerns over treatment of Armenians being deported.

          5. Rejection of European and American aid for deportees reaching Aleppo, Der Zor.

          6a. Why the deportations were not motivated by a desire to depopulate areas near the war front, but rather a democraphic principle of limiting the Armenian population to 5%-10% in any given region (including the destination points of the deportees).

          6b. Rejection of Islamification as a policy despite the hoards of Armenian Christians willing to convert in order to save their lives.

          7. The treatment of property claims and rights of the Armenian deportees by the Turkish Government.

          8. The drafting of all Armenian men aged 20-45 into the Turkish army and aged 45-60 to be organized into labour battalions. The acceleration of the decision to liquidate (destroy) the Armenians serving in response to losses against the Russians on the eastern front, which were blamed on the Armenians, now a "suspect" minority within the Ottoman realm.

          9. Eyewitness reports from European and Turkish witnesses concerning the treatment of the Armenians during the so called "deportations", and how these reports match those of the Armenian survivors.

          10. The punishment by the CUP Central Committee of Muslim citizens and officials who opposed and attempted to contravene in the genocidal policy of the "deportations".

          11. The nature of the official story on the "Armenian Question" used by Turkey, which has remained unchanged on all relevent points since the genocide.

          12. Why the genocidal policies conducted by the Ministry of the Interior during WWI would not have been so successful had their lines of communication and division of operations not have excluded the Parliament, the general Turkish population and the army (despite the fact that some elements of the Turkish populace and the Turkish 3rd Army did actively participate in the destruction of the Armenians).
          Last edited by jgk3; 09-22-2009, 07:34 AM.


          • #45
            Re: A document that sums up our pro-Armenian stance

            Turkey has flipped the question 180 degrees.
            The true question is not "Do Armenians have evidence that the Armenian Genocide happened?"

            The question is "Does Turkey have evidence that it didn't happen?"

            As much as Turkey says there is no evidence of a genocidal attempt, there is no evidence that there WASN'T a genocidal attempt.

            In fact, if we look at the recent discovery of the Black Book of Talat Pasha, we can see that during the tehcir law, Armenians AND Turks were deported. Now before the relocations, there was a count of people at the beginning and a count after the people in question reached their destinations. Turks reached their them almost safe and sound. But in the case of Armenians, the count dropped from 1.2 million to 0.2 million. 1 million Armenians vanished from the official reports.

            As Hilmar Kaiser said, you cannot just hide 1 million Armenians.
            I add that they cannot have escaped to other countries because
            1. They would have to break the law (tehcir)
            2. There are no reports of a mass migration of 1 million Armenians anywhere in the world at that time. (the biggest was 200,000 to Russia due to the fall of the Western Armenian Administration).

            So the question is not "Do Armenians have evidence for the truth of the genocide?" Because we do. It's "Do Turks have evidence that those 1 million Armenians were not massacred under the pretext of a peaceful relocation?" Asking the question like Turks do (the former) puts the truth of the genocide to question. The latter puts the denial to question. This is very important because it has affected the way Armenians argue. Armenians constantly try to prove the existence of a genocide. By doing so, we are putting the truth of a genocide to question. We should pressure the Turks to find evidence that they did NOT commit a genocide. The one saying "prove it" should not be them, but us.


            • #46
              Re: A document that sums up our pro-Armenian stance

              Here is a word that shares the same sentiments:

              Greeks gave meaning to the ultimate oath: "freedom or death."

              I wonder what that corresponding phrase is in Armenian.

              It would apply.


              • #47
                Re: A document that sums up our pro-Armenian stance

                Topic 2: Artsakh Conflict (Hellektor has TONS of great material for this)

                1. Discuss the history (or lack there of) of the Azeri people, and how Azerbaijan is not even a legitimate state.

                BTW- PAKISTAN is NOT a legitimate country either. Ask the Seikhs and India.

                The Seikh prince had to suffer the embarrassment and humiliation when the
                British took his country away and gave it to the Muslims, who were in turn
                carrying on saying they "needed a country."

                akh! They didn't have enough land? Aysinken, the muslims have enough land,
                so much in fact they are still not satisfied as they now build mosques in Europe,
                and all over. And make no mistake, they would probably love to build one in

                They have Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Jordan, Morocco, Algeria,
                alot of Africa, Sudan, Egypt , Turkey...(and more!) , Azerbaijan, oh yeah, it's correctly called
       get the idea. I'm learning.

                What they need more?


                • #48
                  Re: A document that sums up our pro-Armenian stance

                  Originally posted by yerazhishda View Post

                  3) The relationship of Armenia to its allies (Russia)
                  No independence as long as we are in Russia's so called protective pocket


                  • #49
                    Re: A document that sums up our pro-Armenian stance

                    Originally posted by mouradian View Post
                    No independence as long as we are in Russia's so called protective pocket
                    What does Murad Oglu do with pro-Armenian stance?


                    • #50
                      Re: A document that sums up our pro-Armenian stance

                      Originally posted by gegev View Post
                      What does Murad Oglu do with pro-Armenian stance?
                      oops, sorry about that comrade

                      Да здравствует созданный волей народов
                      Единый, могучий Советский Союз!