Are Armenians white????

[jgk3]

Re: Are Armenians white????

Armenians are related to Europeans. If you understood the principle of Med migrations (Which created every European appearance that is not Cro-magnid, in other words, every European appearance that isn't reminiscent of Arnold Schwarzneggar or all those other Cromagnid types that dominate the British Isles for example, you'd figure out that they had to pass through the Armenian Highlands first to get into Europe.

After this population of Europe by Meds, later waves of peoples from the Armenian Highlands who developped under conditions of Armenization made their way into Europe, and Europeans in turn, making their way from the Caucasus mountains or the Bosporus, would populate the Armenian highlands with their own regional types of Med which evolved later on.

You need to understand this interaction as dynamic, a process that made up both the character of those living in Europe and those in the Middle East. If you can't understand that, then there is nothing more to say.

[German66]

Re: Are Armenians white????

Is there a Armenian group that is related to Europeans?

[jgk3]

Re: Are Armenians white????

So about 70% of the Armenians are related to Assyrians? lol :P

Regarding the Armenians who have ancestrial claims around Lake Van, yes, they most probably share a genetic connection to Assyrians. My grandmother's family came from Bitlis and I'm not disconcerted by it one bit. Her family had clear Armenoid features, just as many Assyrians do.

[jgk3]

Re: Are Armenians white????

The notion of western and eastern Armenian is new, less than 300 years old. And it refers to speakers of the 2 dominant dialects, so I wouldn't use western Armenian in the above context. Also, I disagree that there is any certain group of Armenians who have mixed more with Assyrians than others, I think it's pretty spread out.

I'm saying "Western" Armenians as in the non-Syunik/Artsakh variety that's been isolated by relatively impassible mountains throughout the centuries, if not millenia. http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php?t=12259 Maybe my terminology wasn't the best.

The georgians didn't even seem themselves as a united ethnic group until quite recently, one can still find a clannish mentality amongst them, especially in the rural areas. Also, I was under the impression that Armenians and georgians have mixed before, much of their phenotypes seem to have come from Armenic tribes. What can you tell me about this interaction?

Their phenotypes, as I said, share similar properties of Armenoids, however the stock which evolved in the high altitudes of the Greater Caucasus is distinct from our own, apparently their base was much more cro-magnid, something absent amongst Armenians regarding ancestry. I don't think we have intermingled with the Georgian tribes very much historically.

[jgk3]

Re: Are Armenians white????

Not sure if you are including me in this, but I didn't say they look asiatic, in fact that term is not even correct as it's purely political. In Iran you will find Hazari and other related peoples who are a mix of Mongols and the native populations who were conquered by them. This group is more common in Afghanistan though. The point I was trying to stress is that Persians more than Armenians for example, are not as 'pure' as they used to be because of their 2000 plus history of empire and conversion to Islam in the 7th century.

Yes, I agree that Mongols and Turks have affected the appearance of Iranians/Persians depending on the specific region we're talking about. Still, I feel that western Iranians, and even Kurds, retain much of their original stock which evolved under the same kind of conditions as Armenians did, and they (more likely the Western Iranians) have historically intermingled with Armenians.

Of course Armenians and Persians share many similarities in appearence and culture. I believe this is due not only to the two being neighbors and Armenia often being under Persian control, but because of the IE sub-branch known as the Armeno-Aryano-Graeco. This theory is not just lingustic, I think there are enough strong clues to warrant a proto ethnic component as well. Of course this was thousands of years ago so any 'pureness' among all groups has changed for some more than others.

Yes, there may very well have been a proto-ethnic component between the Armenians, Greeks and Iranians. One interesting point to raise however, regarding Greeks, is that the Doric Greeks were postulated to have entered Greece from Anatolia, whilst the Mycaneans entered from the North, likely an offshoot of the Kurgan culture creeping its way into the Balkans from the Pontic Steppe. I'm not sure if this hypothesis is correct, and I'm not sure how these people both decided to be collectively known as Greeks, together dominating over the alleged natives of the Greek peninsula, the Pelasgians (who, upon linguistic inquiry, turn out to have given Luwian place names to their city sites, those with endings like -anthos, -assos, prefixes like Kn- so Knossos is a classic example).

Their distinct origins however might explain the historic bloody rivalries between Athens and Sparta.

The Hyksos themselves were a Hurrian tribe as I'm sure you are well aware of.
When we speak of modern joos we have to be careful because the vast majority have more European (German, Russian, Spanish, Polish) and Khazar (turkic) blood than Hebrew. The only joos which I think could claim some type of connection with the ancient Hebrews are the so called Middle eastern joos aka Mizrahi.

I am doubtful of the Khazar hypothesis regarding the origins of Ashkenazi xxxs. I notice in many of them that the Armenoid strain lingers. I can't help but feel that a considerable number of them retain their ancient Middle Eastern character. They also obviously have absorbed to some extent, some characteristics from the native Europeans living in their host countries.

PS: take it easy on German66, he seems to want to learn more about the IE of our region, not shove some Nordic supremacy ideology down our throats.

Alright, I will.

[Armanen]

Re: Are Armenians white????

Western Armenians in particular are likely to be are genetically closer to their "semite brother" Assyrians than to Georgians, Greeks and Italians. In fact, ethnic Georgians represent a race that is genetically isolated from that of most Europeans and Middle Easterners. They hardly intermingled with Armenians, even though our nations today are adjacent. Any common facial characteristics between us are due to common climate and habitat which promoted this kind of evolution, and not actual intermingling.

The notion of western and eastern Armenian is new, less than 300 years old. And it refers to speakers of the 2 dominant dialects, so I wouldn't use western Armenian in the above context. Also, I disagree that there is any certain group of Armenians who have mixed more with Assyrians than others, I think it's pretty spread out.

The georgians didn't even seem themselves as a united ethnic group until quite recently, one can still find a clannish mentality amongst them, especially in the rural areas. Also, I was under the impression that Armenians and georgians have mixed before, much of their phenotypes seem to have come from Armenic tribes. What can you tell me about this interaction?

[German66]

Re: Are Armenians white????

Yes, Western Armenians in particular are likely to be are genetically closer to their "semite brother" Assyrians than to Georgians, Greeks and Italians. In fact, ethnic Georgians represent a race that is genetically isolated from that of most Europeans and Middle Easterners. They hardly intermingled with Armenians, even though our nations today are adjacent. Any common facial characteristics between us are due to common climate and habitat which promoted this kind of evolution, and not actual intermingling.

So about 70% of the Armenians are related to Assyrians? lol :P

[German66]

Re: Are Armenians white????

Thank you, I never conducted about any Nordic Supremacy.. and I'm here to support Armenians...

Anyways I would suspect that Iranians are probably mixed more then Armenians so it will probably be more easier to find more Pure armenians is that correct?

[jgk3]

Re: Are Armenians white????

Yes, Western Armenians in particular are likely to be are genetically closer to their "semite brother" Assyrians than to Georgians, Greeks and Italians. In fact, ethnic Georgians represent a race that is genetically isolated from that of most Europeans and Middle Easterners. They hardly intermingled with Armenians, even though our nations today are adjacent. Any common facial characteristics between us are due to common climate and habitat which promoted this kind of evolution, and not actual intermingling.

Again, I'm trying to convince you that this idea of people being "semites" is rather vague when it comes to differentiating races in the Middle East. Races became associated with "semite" labels when they began to use the language. Only by 3000BC did the Semitic language (likely originating from Africa) start to take center stage in the Middle East, particularily in the south and certain areas of the Levant. Before that, Middle Easterners would've required some other means of identifying their identity. Mesopotamia, both North and South, used to have a distinct character from the more modern notion of "Arabs" "xxxs" and "Semites", they interacted commercially, set up farms, exchanged culture and knowledge, migrated, etc... The Northern Middle East (The Levant and the Kur-Araxes) interacted in this way, the Southern Middle East did their own thing and was obscured from these pre-historic activities of the North, which also interacted with Europe through a few waves of interactive migrations itself.

Only later on did the emergence of Semitic language begin to "differentiate" peoples who were originally related to us. The rise of the Assyrians and Babylonians as imperial powers (with a differentiated culture from our own), obsoleted our prehistoric connection to their lands, though we would continue to interact with the Assyrians a long time afterwards, given that Van, one of the historical seats of Armenian civilization, was pretty much adjacent to the lands of the Assyrians.

[Armanen]

Re: Are Armenians white????

So Assyrians and Armenians are related genetically?

There has been some mixing, especially in the last 150 years or so as both peoples were Christian, subjagated to Genocide and had to stick together in a sea of Muslims.

But then again, don't Germans share some genetics with Finno-Ugrics, i.e. Estonians and Hungarians?