Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

[Kattie]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Yes, did you read my comment? Her comment sounded like a whole lot of disrespect for her father, her family and disappointment for her Armenian roots. I doubt someone of her age would be promoting assimilation.

Yes, I did. No, her comment does not sound like a "whole lot of disrespect". Do you make even the slightest effort to understand and communicate or your sole purpose is to be part of a conversation and kill time? Is this a chatroom for you?

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I can't believe my eyes!!!!! You couldn't figure out whether she's French or Armenian? I don't mean to disrespect, but how confused or unintuitive are you? Did you read her posts?

Yes, did you read my comment? Her comment sounded like a whole lot of disrespect for her father, her family and disappointment for her Armenian roots. I doubt someone of her age would be promoting assimilation.

[Kattie]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I don't disagree with this assessment per se. My quibble is that you somehow try to pigeonhole this phenomenon as only among Armenians.

What gave you that impression? I believe that enough was said to suggest that it can also be observed in other communities, less in some and more in others.

In fact, I would go further than you and state that femininity is the lost art of modernity which has been confused and replaced with vulgarity, almost akin to a false idol. In fact, I would say that most women in America (of whatever ethnic origin) and probably Europe, have lost the ability to discern how to woo a man using their gracefulness and serenity, and resort to vulgarity instead.

For example, I live in Southern California and I have seen first hand the "sameness effect" among all stripes of women from all ethnic backgrounds. By the "sameness effect" I mean that all women, more or less, have resorted to the same cheap vulgarity of trying to seduce a man, not by their gracefulness or femininity, but by how much they can cheapen themselves in the process. The one common bond all these women have is the same slutty, materialistic obsession with vanity and self as the only way to seduce and charm.

This phenomenon with which you are concerned is the result of a collision of old and new world values and this is why I have seen many different ethnic girls - whether they're from Latin America, from East Asia, Southeast Asia, etc. - resort to the phenomenon you are describing. In essence, by a drastic exposure to such liberalism as it pertains to gender, sexuality and identity, most people do not have the capacity to "weather the storm" so to speak and thereby process this in a gradual progression. Instead, they are almost immediately imbued with these things, soak it in, and proceed in strides of leaps and bounds. Add to the fact that sexuality is bombarded on them, from every orifice of communication, since birth, then you have what have.

Though interesting, that is a different subject.
First of all the issue that I have raised existed in the past and continues to exist, but to a lesser degree. Keffir was not an usual case, and the problem persists even today.
On the contrary, the issue that you have raised is becoming more acute with time, according to you.

Second of all, the issue that I have raised is less acute in some communities, and more in others i.e. it is community dependent. On the contrary, the issue that you have raised is characterized by the "sameness effect" according to you.

Most of all, the issue that I have raised is gender specific, while the one that you have raised is not. In fact, the may argue that the same can be said about masculinity i.e. virility, honor, integrity are values that have known the same faith as femininity.

I don't intend to discuss the issue that you've raised, and though I can understand and respect the anachronism in your views and values, I can't understand and respect your "despise" of women. I'm also taking in consideration your post about "sl.uts".

By the way, I prefer hrai's description, because it's more articulate, to the point, gender neutral, complete yet concise. Also, it is void of the "despise" that I see in your post.

Because they like being hostile and suspicious.

Why do they like being hostile? How charming.

Maybe Kattie should have been a bit more descriptive in what she meant by "handicapped because of their upbringing" - I thought she meant something broader than just relationships with the opposite sex.

A handicap is anything that reduces our chances to reach a goal. "Upbringing" is an umbrella word and closest match for a word that I could not find that includes values transmitted by family/community members, values/customs that regulate the behavior of members of a community, restrictions imposed by cultural values/customs etc.

The examples that I've given as a starting point were not limited to relationships with the opposite sex. The example given by Keffir was descriptive enough.
Being silenced, and unlearning to charm can have consequences that can later become handicaps in all kinds of relationships and interactions.
Being silenced and "male favoritism" can cause low self-esteem, as Gavur emphasized.

I will not discuss the details, but I've seen cases where the man was eager to be with an Armenian woman, but ended up with a non-Armenian because of those handicaps, I will mention only two: Once the magic of the "first months" faded away, the men complained that the women were either unwilling or "unable" to charm, as if something was holding them back, or as if they were not even aware that it's part of the game or...By the way, the women did not want to break up and were apparently satisfied with the relationship.
The second handicap is the fact that they are not allowed to freely communicate with the men.

Is that any better?

Maybe that is another inevitable effect of the Genocide, and its unresolved (i.e. denied) status.

The same is true of relationships, we can't forgive and start forgetting as long as the wrongdoing is not recognized, and most importantly understood by the other person.

What's up with you? I keep things simple and talk normally with you and you suddenly get all sarcastic, lol....I have more important things to do.

I am so grateful that you're "keeping things simple" for us/me and "keeping them short", that's so thoughtful and kind of you.
I'm sure that you have many more important things to do, and though you're input is so valuable, please feel free to focus on the "more important things".

And how would you know?!?!?

You may have heard about a recent discovery, it was all over the news about a year ago. It's an incredibly amazing, yet simple technique that allows a person to communicate with others using their lips and no other instruments to transmit words, and others to use their ears and no other instruments to receive the transmitted words. It uses the same principles as radio transmission, who would have guessed? I used that technique to capture the waves transmitted by Armenians who had plans to go Armenia to get married. Isn't it magical?
I sincerely recommend you to try it, specially the listening part.

Things wouldn't have changed as drastically. I suggest you look at the bigger picture, Kattie.

You wonder how a person can become aware of the intentions of others living in the same community, yet you can figure out the course of history had different scenarios occurred? Don't we all love a not-self-centered, modest Armo?

[Kattie]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I reply to all of you:
I’ll give you an example of « old mind ». When my father arrived alone in France, he was 22 years old. Soon later, he wrote a letter to his mother who was still in Constantinople, that he had met a French woman and wanted to marry her. I found the reply of her mother, written in armenian. She wrote « I don’t want you to marry a French woman, you must marry an Armenian, from Adabazar.
I have a school friend who lives in Marsilia, she has a daughter 21 years old, you go and ask her parents to marry her ». So, my father who was working in Paris, went to Marseille, found the family
Yeramian at the address that his mother had written to him, he told his story, and asked to see their
daughter. She was at work. Her brother brought her at home. She knew Hrant,they had been at the
same nursery school, but she told her father she did not want to marry, she wanted to be a nun. Her father said : you are our only girl, you have to get married. Then they spent the day telling their exile story, he played violin, and both accepted to be nchanvadz. Next day he returned to Paris,
to his work. Two months later, my grand-mother Aroussiag came to Paris to bring her daughter.
They get married in the Apostolic church, my father had a friend Azad Tarpinian who became their
‘gnkahayr’. Then my mother had to work, because they need money, they had nothing. Later, my grandmother and grand father and uncle, came live to Paris too. When I was born, my mother did not work any more outside. My father was very authoritarian, he demanded his children to speak only Armenian at home, he forbid my mother to speak one turkish word. I learnt French at school. We were not allowed to talk French at home.

Kiffer,
Thanks! That's another good example, and I'm surprised that you had to clarify the meaning of "old mind". I believe that it's "hin kloukh" in Armenian.

I'm confused, are you French or Armenian? .

I can't believe my eyes!!!!! You couldn't figure out whether she's French or Armenian? I don't mean to disrespect, but how confused or unintuitive are you? Did you read her posts?

[Haykakan]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I reply to all of you:
I’ll give you an example of « old mind ». When my father arrived alone in France, he was 22 years old. Soon later, he wrote a letter to his mother who was still in Constantinople, that he had met a French woman and wanted to marry her. I found the reply of her mother, written in armenian. She wrote « I don’t want you to marry a French woman, you must marry an Armenian, from Adabazar.
I have a school friend who lives in Marsilia, she has a daughter 21 years old, you go and ask her parents to marry her ». So, my father who was working in Paris, went to Marseille, found the family
Yeramian at the address that his mother had written to him, he told his story, and asked to see their
daughter. She was at work. Her brother brought her at home. She knew Hrant,they had been at the
same nursery school, but she told her father she did not want to marry, she wanted to be a nun. Her father said : you are our only girl, you have to get married. Then they spent the day telling their exile story, he played violin, and both accepted to be nchanvadz. Next day he returned to Paris,
to his work. Two months later, my grand-mother Aroussiag came to Paris to bring her daughter.
They get married in the Apostolic church, my father had a friend Azad Tarpinian who became their
‘gnkahayr’. Then my mother had to work, because they need money, they had nothing. Later, my grandmother and grand father and uncle, came live to Paris too. When I was born, my mother did not work any more outside. My father was very authoritarian, he demanded his children to speak only Armenian at home, he forbid my mother to speak one turkish word. I learnt French at school. We were not allowed to talk French at home.

My father also required we speak only armenian at home. As my sister and i grew older he relaxed that rule. I will suggest you ignore kanadahye, i don't think he puts much effort into being coherent or understandable but sometimes he will surprise you.I think a appropriate questions to ask you is how do you feel your parents' upbringing of you has effected your sexuality(ability to charm...).No need to be shy about it since we don't know who you really are(not that it should matter anyways) and afterall that is what this thread is about.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I reply to all of you:
I’ll give you an example of « old mind ». When my father arrived alone in France, he was 22 years old. Soon later, he wrote a letter to his mother who was still in Constantinople, that he had met a French woman and wanted to marry her. I found the reply of her mother, written in armenian. She wrote « I don’t want you to marry a French woman, you must marry an Armenian, from Adabazar.
I have a school friend who lives in Marsilia, she has a daughter 21 years old, you go and ask her parents to marry her ». So, my father who was working in Paris, went to Marseille, found the family
Yeramian at the address that his mother had written to him, he told his story, and asked to see their
daughter. She was at work. Her brother brought her at home. She knew Hrant,they had been at the
same nursery school, but she told her father she did not want to marry, she wanted to be a nun. Her father said : you are our only girl, you have to get married. Then they spent the day telling their exile story, he played violin, and both accepted to be nchanvadz. Next day he returned to Paris,
to his work. Two months later, my grand-mother Aroussiag came to Paris to bring her daughter.
They get married in the Apostolic church, my father had a friend Azad Tarpinian who became their
‘gnkahayr’. Then my mother had to work, because they need money, they had nothing. Later, my grandmother and grand father and uncle, came live to Paris too. When I was born, my mother did not work any more outside. My father was very authoritarian, he demanded his children to speak only Armenian at home, he forbid my mother to speak one turkish word. I learnt French at school. We were not allowed to talk French at home.

I'm confused, are you French or Armenian? Apparently giving up, admitting defeat and allowing yourself to be absorbed by the same powers that caused the demise of our people is "old minded".

[Kiffer]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I reply to all of you:
I’ll give you an example of « old mind ». When my father arrived alone in France, he was 22 years old. Soon later, he wrote a letter to his mother who was still in Constantinople, that he had met a French woman and wanted to marry her. I found the reply of her mother, written in armenian. She wrote « I don’t want you to marry a French woman, you must marry an Armenian, from Adabazar.
I have a school friend who lives in Marsilia, she has a daughter 21 years old, you go and ask her parents to marry her ». So, my father who was working in Paris, went to Marseille, found the family
Yeramian at the address that his mother had written to him, he told his story, and asked to see their
daughter. She was at work. Her brother brought her at home. She knew Hrant,they had been at the
same nursery school, but she told her father she did not want to marry, she wanted to be a nun. Her father said : you are our only girl, you have to get married. Then they spent the day telling their exile story, he played violin, and both accepted to be nchanvadz. Next day he returned to Paris,
to his work. Two months later, my grand-mother Aroussiag came to Paris to bring her daughter.
They get married in the Apostolic church, my father had a friend Azad Tarpinian who became their
‘gnkahayr’. Then my mother had to work, because they need money, they had nothing. Later, my grandmother and grand father and uncle, came live to Paris too. When I was born, my mother did not work any more outside. My father was very authoritarian, he demanded his children to speak only Armenian at home, he forbid my mother to speak one turkish word. I learnt French at school. We were not allowed to talk French at home.

[Haykakan]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Couldn't have said it better. Absolutely. I'm not saying our girls don't have problems but who doesn't, dude? When push comes to pull though, our girls are REAL women and stand by our sides IF we give them love, care, support, and the most important things that any women wants ... first and foremost. Just today, I was walking down the center of Yerevan and I was thinking about what we're talking about in this thread and I couldn't help but laugh. I saw so many girls walking down the street and the bottom line is ladies and gentleman...

...Our girls are simply gorgeous, charming, and sexy as HELL ... I always see them smiling, joking and laughing ... they show tremendous respect to their families ... they have a taste for fashion I haven't seen in almost any country ... they are great wives, great mothers, and great partners that STAND by your side and I think we should show them the respect they deserve. How do you think the majority of Armenian girls can be this way if they were "improperly raised"?!?

Menk dzez shat enk sirum akhchkek yev hpartanum enk dzeznov. I rest my case!

Sasco jan du migitch shat aghjkeki vor mtar. No one is saying Armenian women are incapable of these things but obviously the fact that this thread exists and was started by a woman indicates that there is a issue to discuss.No one here is making up issues or problems that don't exist and it is good that we discuss them.

[Sako]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Saco, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Let's face it, if you're Armenian, you're already rare to begin with... like vosghee. Shouldn't our men be holding our women to a higher standard and vice versa? Isn't our survival dependent on helping each other out as a community and not constantly putting each other down and competing with each other? Our only enemy is assimilation.

Couldn't have said it better. Absolutely. I'm not saying our girls don't have problems but who doesn't, dude? When push comes to pull though, our girls are REAL women and stand by our sides IF we give them love, care, support, and the most important things that any women wants ... first and foremost. Just today, I was walking down the center of Yerevan and I was thinking about what we're talking about in this thread and I couldn't help but laugh. I saw so many girls walking down the street and the bottom line is ladies and gentleman...

...Our girls are simply gorgeous, charming, and sexy as HELL ... I always see them smiling, joking and laughing ... they show tremendous respect to their families ... they have a taste for fashion I haven't seen in almost any country ... they are great wives, great mothers, and great partners that STAND by your side and I think we should show them the respect they deserve. How do you think the majority of Armenian girls can be this way if they were "improperly raised"?!?

Menk dzez shat enk sirum akhchkek yev hpartanum enk dzeznov. I rest my case!

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

But still, I wouldn't say the majority of Armenian girls are this way! And even if they were (and that's a very big IF) I'd rather live with them then the spoiled American female populace. Mihat hai akhjik chei pokhi nurants SAGHI het. Mi hat!

Saco, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Let's face it, if you're Armenian, you're already rare to begin with... like vosghee. Shouldn't our men be holding our women to a higher standard and vice versa? Isn't our survival dependent on helping each other out as a community and not constantly putting each other down and competing with each other? Our only enemy is assimilation.