Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

[Kattie]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I like that word you used "Charm" that's basically what lovingly married couples do on a daily basis, and yes, it does take two to tango, and no Armenian woman don't have to lose it

We agree so far...

if they balance of it mixed in with healthy self-esteem.

but I lost you here.

I think the biggest issues regarding women are a) pay b) respect c) domestic violence d) exploitation.

A) Women throughout the world whether it be in Armenia or any other country are paid far less than men, especially in the third world. I have seen some statistics and apparently women do 2/3s of the work and get paid less than men, its just wrong. Yet there seems still to be this stereotype that men are better than women at work and thus deserve more pay.

B) There are religious texts and of course UN agreements on the rights of women yet neither of these are properly followed. The worst example of religion has to be Afghanistan where the Taliban raped and terrorised the Afghan population in direct desecration of the principles of the Koran they said they believed in. As for UN agreements on the rights of women not many nations have signed it or followed it through as women still have far less if no representation compared to men in corporations, governments and even educational institutions. It is apparent that there is a lack of respect for women whatever the religion or the nation.

C) Domestic Violence I personally know at lot about because it occurs in New Zealand a lot, so this is not just a issue of wealth but an issue of how men interact and behave around women. Its a lot to do with self control...how can we stop people resorting to violence. I think a lot of it is in human nature, but people just have to learn that by hurting your family you are hurting the people you love, and ultimately you are hurting yourself.

D) Exploitation of women is terrible, as I said before women do 2/3rds of the worlds work and get paid less than men. But it gets worse, what about the young girls in Europe, Asia and the Middle East that are abducted by unknowns or sold by their families into illegal brothels? This is a big issue. How can we accept that right now girls are being taken away and having their lives ruined forever. The other area is sweatshops because it is well known that young girls and boys are sold by their families into sweatshops. Finally we end up at the arranged marriage issue, because women are deprived of their rights by being forcibly married off by their families and intimidated and threatened if they don't agree, also divorce in places like Saudi Arabia is so greatly restricted that men can abuse women at will and their wives can't escape from it are forced to be married forever.

I agree with you and I'm aware of all that you have mentioned, but what does it say about Armenian women in particular?
By the way, I said handicapped, not sexually exploited as the trafficked girls or terrorized as in Afghanistan, Pakistan or...

I am an old woman, born in France in1925, from armenian parents...When we were children we used to play together,
boys and girls, in the garden behind the house, we were not allowed to go in the street.
But when I was 12, my mother said to me : now you cannot play with boys.
...
All the Armenian young men of the house married French girls, because they thought we were old minded.
...
One of my French colleague’s was delighted to meet me, as I was serious.

Thank you for the contribution! That's an excellent example.
Sadly enough, some do not see the obvious i.e. being "old minded" or being perceived as such, can contribute to being what Saco calls "dead minded" instead of preventing it, as he believes.

Why do you guys get all defensive? What she is implying is not that far off the reality, at least for a good proportion of Armenian women… I believe the image is not quite as 'vartaguyn' as you may want to see... and we need to discuss similar topics pertaining our ailments more openly.

Thanks!

So I agree with her message but disagree with the generalization.

What generalization and what did you understand?

I agree. Could this also probably be a reason (one of the reasons) why a couple may begin to stray after a while?

That's what I implied in:
"In societies where Armenians are directly exposed to other cultures, the traditional concept of the Armenian couple becomes vulnerable because insufficient to guarantee the longevity of the couple. I don't shy away from responsibilities, but a sense of responsibilities is not always enough to guarantee the longevity of a relationship, partners should not take each other for granted and that's where charm comes in. I don't have in mind particular charms, and it's more about charming."

I would simply add that through the internet Armenians in Armenia are also exposed to other cultures, but to a much lesser degree.

Can you define 'charm' please?

I kept wondering who will ask this obvious but simple question.
I can't clearly define charm for the same reasons than one can't clearly define love or anything so essential to human life, both are multifaceted and maybe too "natural/primitive" to be fully understood. But I'll do my best.
First of all, I will remind what I've already said: "I don't have in mind particular charms, and it's more about charming." That is to say that what matters is the natural inclination that we have to charm, how it's done is to some degree culturally dependent.
In cooking, the ingredients do not make the dish, the cook does. The same applies to charming. The ingredients can be as simple as a smile, an earring, the passion in our words, the way one tilts the head, kindness, intelligence, the expression of the eyes, the stories one invents, our integrity, our love, giving, our dreams etc. etc.
For a far fetched but relevant example, imagine feeling on your palate grains of sugar that were not properly melted, when eating chocolate. The sugar is meant to create a pleasant sensation, instead it causes a slightly unpleasant one.
The same is also true of fashion, the clothes do not make the style, the person does.

Second of all, I would distinguish it from what can be considered as a responsibility or compliance to a certain code/etiquette. For instance, little girls want to put on pretty dresses because they want to be a princess and charm, older women put on pretty dresses because it is proper. The dream is gone.
Another example is when Armenians put a pretty dress because it's "shnorkov", the purpose is not to charm but to comply. Of course, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Third of all, I would distinguish it from acting i.e. forcing oneself to do what people consider as charming, so it has to be naturally part of you. I have in mind women who force themselves to act in certain way just or wear a certain type of clothes/underwear just because they believe that their partner would enjoy it. Of course, if the woman genuinely enjoys how the clothes/underwear feel/look on her body then it's not acting, and she will wear them differently, with style.

Of course, reality is not as clear cut, pure black and white are ideas and life is made of shades of gray. In other words, there may be some dream left when something done as a responsibility, something genuine when a woman puts up an act or...

Is that a good start?

Saco, are you kidding me? I mean seriously, what has it got to do with the government??

He's hilarious.

[Sako]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I don't think that Armenian women are handicapped because of their upbringing, I think the handicap comes from rebeling against their upbringing and trying too hard to fit into the social circles in their schools and communities. It's a symptom of assimilation.

Very good point Kanada.

A women's charm is a part of her sexuality and it is very much oppressed by most Armenian parents. Instead of discussing sexuality many parents will just say you should't act like that. By no means is this true for all Armenian women but generally speaking charming, flirting or anything sexual in nature is discouraged in most Armenian girls by their parents.

Really? Is that why the Armenian girls here in Armenia are simply gorgeous, study great, smile and laugh all the time, go out, and have an awsome taste for fashion? I asked Kattie the same thing and now I'm asking you. Where do you get your views from, yekhpayr? I've seen enough girls to last me a few life times and very few came close to our Armenian girls. I think you guys have the wrong picture in your hands. Seriously.

Armenian parents are strict, no doubts there, (that's why our girls aren't all hoes) but they don't suck the charm and sexiness out of their daughters like Kattie implies, lol! Our girls got style, brother.

These attributes (charm,sexuality..) are not automatically handed down like genes, they are learned through observation. Parents hide much of the sencual side of their relationship from their childeren and are always worried about the child having sex and getting into trouble. Openly discussing these issues allowes the child to have a healther perspective on the subject and not be as vulnerable to myths and misconseptions regarding it.

...And who said they don't talk about it?!?!? If you have to talk about people not talking about sex properly, the way it should be talked about ... look at the states! Girls there couldn't come close to our girls here and I'm not just saying this because I'm a fanatic. I'm saying this because I live in the land of Armenians!

Oh, and children aren't dumb, they know when they are raised in a good marriage or a bad marriage... once they become of age, they realize why they spent so much time over at grandma's on weekends.

Why is that ... .... !

And it is not evolutionists who say that much of human sexuality is learned

Is that why America is xxxxed up? Maybe the specialists didn't talk enough about sexual behavior ... or maybe the kids didn't hang out enough at grandma's () . I don't mean to disrespect you Haykakan, please don't misunderstand me.

Then why aren't the "behavioral specialists" speaking up? For years and years social science has taught properly about human sexual behaviour. Now everything is "in the genes". Where is the public discussion? Why isn't the media flooded by "specialists"?

I'd actually like to know the answer to all that myself!

And regarding genes ...... you have to be illiterate to say that genes have nothing to do with a girl being hot, smart, or anything else. Naturally, as you grow up, your mind develops but a lot comes from your parents.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Look man i told you before go get educated and then we can talk. You are debating a person who has a degree in psychology from the University of Michigan and a strong background in other fields not to mention a ton more life experience then you. And it is not evolutionists who say that much of human sexuality is learned it is behavioral specialists and researchers who say it, and yeh most of them like other educated people believe in evolution.

I used to hang out in psychology classes when I had spare time. The chicks were hot.

Then why aren't the "behavioral specialists" speaking up? For years and years social science has taught properly about human sexual behaviour. Now everything is "in the genes". Where is the public discussion? Why isn't the media flooded by "specialists"?

[Haykakan]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

According to your statement, I shouldn't be here today since my mother, grandmother and great grandmother were oppressed due to their Armenian upbringing and weren't suited to be wives or mothers.... yet they were excellent at being both. I don't know about you, but either there is something greatly wrong with your logic or the way you perceive society as a whole.

So the evolutionist agrees sexuality is observed behaviour and there is no "gay" gene. Interesting.

Look man i told you before go get educated and then we can talk. You are debating a person who has a degree in psychology from the University of Michigan and a strong background in other fields not to mention a ton more life experience then you. And it is not evolutionists who say that much of human sexuality is learned it is behavioral specialists and researchers who say it, and yeh most of them like other educated people believe in evolution.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

These attributes (charm,sexuality..) are not automatically handed down like genes, they are learned through observation. Parents hide much of the sencual side of their relationship from their childeren and are always worried about the child having sex and getting into trouble. Openly discussing these issues allowes the child to have a healther perspective on the subject and not be as vulnerable to myths and misconseptions regarding it.

According to your statement, I shouldn't be here today since my mother, grandmother and great grandmother were oppressed due to their Armenian upbringing and weren't suited to be wives or mothers.... yet they were excellent at being both. I don't know about you, but either there is something greatly wrong with your logic or the way you perceive society as a whole.

So the evolutionist agrees sexuality is observed behaviour and there is no "gay" gene. Interesting.

Oh, and children aren't dumb, they know when they are raised in a good marriage or a bad marriage... once they become of age, they realize why they spent so much time over at grandma's on weekends.

[Haykakan]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Women get many of their attributes from their mothers.... that's like saying their father didn't find their wife attractive or charming or sexual. It has nothing to do with the "Armenian" upbringing.

These attributes (charm,sexuality..) are not automatically handed down like genes, they are learned through observation. Parents hide much of the sencual side of their relationship from their childeren and are always worried about the child having sex and getting into trouble. Openly discussing these issues allowes the child to have a healther perspective on the subject and not be as vulnerable to myths and misconseptions regarding it.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I think this is a great topic and i applaud Kattie for bringing this subject up. A women's charm is a part of her sexuality and it is very much oppressed by most Armenian parents. Instead of discussing sexuality many parents will just say you should't act like that. By no means is this true for all Armenian women but generally speaking charming, flirting or anything sexual in nature is discouraged in most Armenian girls by their parents. This is by no means a Armenian problem and exists in many other cultures.Women in general have a delicate balancing act to play. Men want their women to be a lady outside and a freak in bed but it can be difficult for a women to be both. Discussing sexuality at the appropriate time with your child is the safest and healthiest way to raise a sexually enabled women and keeping her safe from the possible negative implications of sex (ie. unwanted pregnancy,std....). Sex,charm, flirting... are not bad things and it should not be a taboo to discuss them especially with your children.

Women get many of their attributes from their mothers.... that's like saying their father didn't find his wife attractive or charming or sexual. It has nothing to do with the "Armenian" upbringing.

[jgk3]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I agree Haykakan.

[Haykakan]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I think this is a great topic and i applaud Kattie for bringing this subject up. A women's charm is a part of her sexuality and it is very much oppressed by most Armenian parents. Instead of discussing sexuality many parents will just say you should't act like that. By no means is this true for all Armenian women but generally speaking charming, flirting or anything sexual in nature is discouraged in most Armenian girls by their parents. This is by no means a Armenian problem and exists in many other cultures.Women in general have a delicate balancing act to play. Men want their women to be a lady outside and a freak in bed but it can be difficult for a women to be both. Discussing sexuality at the appropriate time with your child is the safest and healthiest way to raise a sexually enabled women and keeping her safe from the possible negative implications of sex (ie. unwanted pregnancy,std....). Sex,charm, flirting... are not bad things and it should not be a taboo to discuss them especially with your children.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

The "American" woman image and American culture in general was created to assimilate race, create poverty, and raise an army of little welfare soldiers. I think it's sad the way women are being exploited in the media and the "American" woman is being glorified. America on it's own is an impotent country, it's the "traditional" and "old world" immigrant families that keep the country afloat.

I don't think that Armenian women are handicapped because of their upbringing, I think the handicap comes from rebeling against their upbringing and trying too hard to fit into the social circles in their schools and communities. It's a symptom of assimilation.