Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

[Gavur]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

If being dumb made a person charmful, then why aren't you charming?

Foul!
That was below the belt!~

[Gavur]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

But how Haykakan being "a little too authoritative and wrong about the Freudian angle" makes KanadaHye insightful? What insight? For me an insight results from knowledge, he doesn't even have an understanding.
Also, I wouldn't say that he's not probing, he's simply shooting in the dark and pulling strings.

I may have misjudged Haykakan for his "go get educated" response to Kanada which seemed harsh, because they may have had previous miscommunication in other threads, I'm not certain; but, the sexual angle I thought was a different issue than this.

Where I thought Kanada had an insight on this issue, was the effects of assimilation, which cannot be dismissed.Unfortunately he didn't follow up on his initial idea, whether that was just shooting in the dark or not I don't know, but rereading his cumulative posts on this thread, I have to admit that's a strong possibility at this point.

[Kattie]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I personally strongly disagree with you and do not believe that all Armenian women are handicapped or that our girls are victims of oppressive values and etc.

I don't think that you're strongly disagreeing with me because I did not say it. This question has been already answered many times. Also, please see my reply to Lucin below.

Kattie, I am also really intrested as to know the origin of your name, as Kattie is truly not an Armenian name nor an Armenian choice. I would greatly appreciate if you were to share that with me.

You've never heard of Katarine/Gadarine?

I also was trying to make a point that this topic is not a uniquely Armenian trait rather a human trait.

Again, this was already answered. Again, see my reply to Lucin below.
I hope that you'll agree that it's not productive to repeatedly answer the same question. Thanks.

Kattie, you did not seem to make any exceptions in your intital post (?)

I did not say all Armenian women neither. The first time that the question of all Armenian women was raised, I was surprised. The second time, I was puzzled. After a certain time, I started being concerned. Do we feel the need to clarify that 2 is a larger number than 1? I don't remember reading a single ethnological or sociological publication where it is said that all members of a given population have a certain characteristic. Maybe revisiting basic concepts will help.

Let's suppose that a certain characteristic/variable C of a population is being studied/discussed. To oversimplify, let's suppose that the characteristic is "actions/customs that repress some of a girl's natural inclinations", another characteristic/variable may be "expressions of the natural inclination to charm".
The characteristic/variable C that is being studied/discussed may have different values or levels that varies among the members of a population P. The technical word is domain. Also, when studying a population measures like averages, medians, deviations of a variable are of interest. In other words different women may be subjected to a different the degree of repression, and averages in one population may be lower/higher than averages in a different one.
When it is said that members of a population P has the characteristic/attribute C, it is meant that the average level of C is higher than a certain reference. At no time it is meant that all members have the characteristic C at the highest degree/level. Absolutism belongs to the past. As I've said before, reality is made of shades of gray and black and white are pure concepts.
Also, when a population P1 is said to be more C1 than another population P2, what is meant is that it is likely that a randomly selected member of P1 will have a higher level of C1 than a randomly selected element of P2. At no times, it means that all members of P1 have a higher level of C1 than all members of P2.
I consider the above as basic, so I don't see necessary to remind.

What is called charm and the lack of it makes also a couple fall into banalities and platitudes once the initial lust, the fire and the passion of the very beginning fades away, I believe this is also what makes couples not notice often times each other's presence after a while. I'm not married but this is just what I have observed in many couples.

Yes.

Natural inclination? Do you think 'charming' or having the 'charm' within is inherent to every single woman's nature? Do all of us possess the 'same' level of charm? And that some are able to express it while others not?

"Every single" is equivalent to "all" and I don't believe in absolutism. As I've said above, the same characteristic usually exists with varying degrees among members of a given population, and the same is true of the natural inclination to charm. Regardless of the initial level of the inclination, my focus is how that inclination is repressed and what are the consequences.

Nice... I'm glad that you did not include physical 'attractiveness' in it.

Personally, I believe that physical beauty fades away quickly unless the person is charmful, and charms can make a person with an "average" physique attractive. However, physical beauty can enhance a woman's charms i.e. beautiful smile on a pretty face, the expression of passion of beautiful eyes, gracefully uncovered beautiful shoulders, the graceful movements of beautiful hands etc. The "physical support" makes a difference.

I would also like to add that a woman who is comfortable in her skin, who has some degree of self-acceptance and sometimes tends to lack inhibition can emanate that 'charm' from herself...

Yes. That is the main point of this thread: inhibitions and their consequences. It's interesting that some of the most sensual women that I've known were tomboys and had something that can't be tamed that added to their charm

So would you deem anything that is done willingly, with no sense of compliance as 'charming'?

Not necessarily. Not everything we do willingly is charming.

I thought Haykakan was laying it on a little too authoritative and wrong about the Freudian angle.I thought that Kanada was trying to probe the issue more, trying to understand the topic you were trying to display.

But how Haykakan being "a little too authoritative and wrong about the Freudian angle" makes KanadaHye insightful? What insight? For me an insight results from knowledge, he doesn't even have an understanding.
Also, I wouldn't say that he's not probing, he's simply shooting in the dark and pulling strings.

An Armenian women who doesn't seem to come back and continue the discussion. So many people, not just me, gave really serious questions and neither you or the Armenian women you mentioned said anything.

The Armenian woman ignores and will continue to ignore questions that were already addressed and/or questions that she considers of little value. Like everybody else, the Armenian woman has priorities.
Most of all, the Armenian woman is afraid that you'll keep your replies "too short" to say "too much".

Our "traditional" grandparents didn't have these "sexuality" issues.

Our grandparents were not exposed to other cultures, and at the time, repressing a woman was acceptable. Also, they were performing their duty to build a family and/or were taking care of their biological urges, most men are not difficult to say the least when it comes to satisfy their biological urge.

You're right, we should keep our girls dumb so they can be oblivious to the dangers of the world and just worry about being charming.

If being dumb made a person charmful, then why aren't you charming?

Come again? I'm sure you'd be more charming if you grew up in the tropics as opposed to post WWII germany.

It was about whether sexual education makes a women charmful. German women are sexually more open even when compared to other Europeans but are far from being more charmful.
What do you know about german women? Do you know when to stop and limit yourself to what you know?

[Kiffer]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Hrair, I do not travel anymore. If you are still in Trier and come
by Metz I shall be glad to receive you too. I have much to say in
this interesting forum,but I do not speak English as fluently as all of you here. So there are many misunderstanding.
L Kiffer

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I agree. I've seen it happen with my nieces who went from lively and playful to extremely serious and almost dull because their parents kept repressing what you call a woman's "natural inclination to charm". It was sad to watch it happen.

And you don't think this has anything to do with the fact that they became TEENAGERS

Maturity has nothing to do with age, wisdom does.

Not necessarily, there are differences between biological maturity and psychological maturity. Some people might be mature with one and not the other and vice versa.

ROFLMAO!
Who would confuse the perceived decay of human values with the oppression of a gender? How sharp is that? Can't you see that Kattie is also talking about you i.e. how you threaten, manipulate, vilify, accuse and silence others when you're out of arguments, and because you have an urge to control?

VartanK, would you like to expand on what it is your sister/brother is doing wrong with their parenting that causes your nieces to to transform from being lively and playful to being serious and dull.

Oppression is generally caused by feeling burdened, additional anxiety from adverse conditions. Just like when you get a new job or you have exams at school, etc. As Armenians we all naturally struggle with racism and trying to fit in and adapt to other cultures. Naturally when children see other children whose parents don't care or are living in single parent homes do things that their own parents wouldn't approve of, they have a sense of not fitting in or feeling different which can cause anxiety.

[VartanK]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I think this is a great topic and i applaud Kattie for bringing this subject up.

I agree. I've seen it happen with my nieces who went from lively and playful to extremely serious and almost dull because their parents kept repressing what you call a woman's "natural inclination to charm". It was sad to watch it happen.

In fact, I would go further than you and state that femininity is the lost art of modernity which has been confused and replaced with vulgarity, almost akin to a false idol. In fact, I would say that most women in America (of whatever ethnic origin) and probably Europe, have lost the ability to discern how to woo a man using their gracefulness and serenity, and resort to vulgarity instead.

For example, I live in Southern California and I have seen first hand the "sameness effect" among all stripes of women from all ethnic backgrounds. By the "sameness effect" I mean that all women, more or less, have resorted to the same cheap vulgarity of trying to seduce a man, not by their gracefulness or femininity, but by how much they can cheapen themselves in the process. The one common bond all these women have is the same slutty, materialistic obsession with vanity and self as the only way to seduce and charm.

This phenomenon with which you are concerned is the result of a collision of old and new world values and this is why I have seen many different ethnic girls - whether they're from Latin America, from East Asia, Southeast Asia, etc. - resort to the phenomenon you are describing. In essence, by a drastic exposure to such liberalism as it pertains to gender, sexuality and identity, most people do not have the capacity to "weather the storm" so to speak and thereby process this in a gradual progression. Instead, they are almost immediately imbued with these things, soak it in, and proceed in strides of leaps and bounds. Add to the fact that sexuality is bombarded on them, from every orifice of communication, since birth, then you have what have.

ROFLMAO!
Who would confuse the perceived decay of human values with the oppression of a gender? How sharp is that? Can't you see that Kattie is also talking about you i.e. how you threaten, manipulate, vilify, accuse and silence others when you're out of arguments, and because you have an urge to control?
The funny part is that you presented the obvious confusion with pretense and pomp just like in other threads.

I don't intend to discuss the issue that you've raised, and though I can understand and respect the anachronism in your views and values, I can't understand and respect your "despise" of women. I'm also taking in consideration your post about "sl.uts".

Considering how he feels about women, is it anachronism or obscurantism?

By the way, I prefer hrai's description, because it's more articulate, to the point, gender neutral, complete yet concise. Also, it is void of the "despise" that I see in your post.

I agree

Its true that , understanding and knowing are separated by doing.

True. I would that add one wouldn't be able to assess the huge distance that separates the two until the end of the journey, a journey that takes as much courage to start than to finish.

Because they like being hostile and suspicious.

I have noticed that. But why?

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Wisdom and maturity all come from experience so Haykakan is more or less wrong when he says that me and Kanada aren't married and for that reason lack experience and can't know better. I'm not saying we know everything ... we still have so much to learn, the learning never ends ... but that doesn't mean we necessarily lack experience and even if we do, there are many, many people that have that experience and we shouldn't claim that they know what they know only because/if they've physically gone through this or that. That's all I'm saying.

Haykakan isn't completely wrong, sometimes people don't really understand why their parents did what they did until they have children of their own. But that doesn't mean that they have to be your own children, sometimes just having cousins, nieces or nephews around the house will change your own outlook on life in general. I think this is something that is lacking in our generation where the traditional family has been focused on the idea of a couple and not an entire family. So I agree with Kattie's assessment but while she is trying to say that the new world way is the correct way, I'm claiming that the traditional Armenian way is the correct way.

As Anonymouse was pointing out, not only have some women lost the ability to charm men, but they have also lost the ability to be charming in general, handicapping their ability to be a good mother.

So are we inclined to say that every marriage is the same? And it has nothing to do with circumstances like poverty/wealth, lifestyle/choices, surrounding environment? Or can you charm yourself out of every problem?

As far as being born with talent, somethings just come natural... there are things that just can't be explained. Like this 23 month old playing billiards. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xm4EjErEKE Cute

And if you want to talk about "being silenced" here is a newsflash, it's not only the Armenian women who were silenced growing up. Children in general weren't allowed to have a say in matters or "do as they please" or "talk back to their elders". These were all, in my mind excellent parenting skills. Who are you at such a young age to claim you have a voice over the only people that truly love you in this world?

[Sako]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I'm slightly disappointed as I thought you were going to talk about your reincarnation.

MY reincarnation? What's there to talk about, yekhpayr? What do you want to specifically know?

What I'm trying to say is that experience is what differentiates people from one another and that what we've learned from the past and not just in this lifetime forms who we are. Our experience not only forms who we are but also decides in what family we are born in our next life, in many respects. Even in the case of marriage, sex, etc. some have more experience then others and they haven't been through it all a hundred times. So if they haven't gone through it all in THIS lifetime, then where does their experience come from? Wisdom and maturity all come from experience so Haykakan is more or less wrong when he says that me and Kanada aren't married and for that reason lack experience and can't know better. I'm not saying we know everything ... we still have so much to learn, the learning never ends ... but that doesn't mean we necessarily lack experience and even if we do, there are many, many people that have that experience and we shouldn't claim that they know what they know only because/if they've physically gone through this or that. That's all I'm saying.

These children you mention....I probably agree with you, only probably because I'm still unsure about reincarnation.

I see. It's pretty obvious though, Hrai, even if you don't know a thing about reincarnation. I would just like to quote something that Cole Marcus said when they asked him how long he's been playing the drums. He said "20 years" without even thinking about it. The kids only four but he says he's been playing for twenty years. What makes you feel awkward though is that he really seemed to have twenty (if not more) years of experience! Now explain that if you can in ANY OTHER WAY other then mine.

An afterlife? I'm a very open book on that, I have a sister who "gets messages" or at least she believes she does. The only way we'll find out is when it's too late!

There are ways to find out before it's "too late" . . . It's never too late, Hrai, even in the case of death which everyone is sooo afraid of. Why? Because it isn't the end. On the contrary, it's simply the beginning of something else!

By the way, I don't mean to barge in or anything, this might sound strange, but could you tell me what messages or kinds of messages your sister gets, what time she gets them, from who (male/female), what language are they, etc. I might be able to help you if you give me the right answers and no this isn't a joke!

[hrai]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Out of ALL I said, this is all you could find? lol. you asked for it.

I don't want to go very deep into detail because the point of this thread will be lost in time. One very small example of what I'm saying is a small Armenian boy here in Yerevan that won a talent contest on TV. He could name you every single part of the world (showing it on a map), talk about history, and let you know things you probably don't know and wouldn't know, lol. He was 5 if I'm not mistaken and he won the contest and is now in Disney World with his family (that was his prize)!

Another example is Cole Marcus, a four year old that could beat the drums better then thousands of drummers that have been playing for years. Most drummers get tired after awhile, naturally, because their hands start to hurt, right? Well this kid was FOUR and played as if he had 20 years of experience. Now, what do you call this...TALENT? Lol, this is way beyond that my friend.

The question I think is ... do you believe in life after death or reincarnation which not only the Hindu culture talks about but also the Bible? If you don't then you'll just say this is talent .... real great talent. It's beyond that, Hrai .... way beyond that. These kids were BORN the way they were. They didn't gather their experience as the years went by.

What is the one thing we can take with us after death, Hrai? All that we've learned. Our EXPERIENCE, knowledge, wisdom. NOTHIN MORE, NOTHING LESS. That's why, don't think everything is based on ones talents because talent itself is based on experience. When your born with a certain "talent", that's because of your past experience. All this has been proven a million times so I'll stop here, yekhpayr.

Out of all that previous post, yes.
I'm slightly disappointed as I thought you were going to talk about your reincarnation.
These children you mention....I probably agree with you, only probably because I'm still unsure about reincarnation. An afterlife? I'm a very open book on that, I have a sister who "gets messages" or at least she believes she does. The only way we'll find out is when it's too late!

[Sako]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

What is Kanada's insight and how is it better than Haykakan's? All I see him do is bicker and pull strings, but I'd like to see how you perceive him.

Do you realize that so far, only you and Haykakan have been agreeing with each other completely?

You're expecting more than I'm wishing for, you're asking parents to make an effort to "teach" their children about sexuality, all I wish for is that they stop repressing the natural inclination/instinct that women have to charm. Also, the entire community takes part of the repression, not only the parents.

Please explain how this works! Describe that repressment, won't you?

I would add that women of different ages agreed that there is a problem.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean our traditional upbringing is wrong or makes us handicapped! Could you tell us the problems they were mentioning?

I think that women are the first victims, what more can they do?

This isn't an Armenian problem alone. It's a natural problem you can find everywhere so let's not talk about this too often because it has nothing to do with "traditional upbringing".

Women cannot do much as long as the community continues to repress what's natural in them.

WHICH community?

You're right, we should keep our girls dumb so they can be oblivious to the dangers of the world and just worry about being charming.

That sounds like the perfect solution

I really don't know which community you're referring to. Or where you're getting your point of views.

She hasn't been telling us since she started this thread so I'm guessing she doesn't even know which community she's referring to. I think she's just met a handful of Armenian women and saw a problem and wants to talk about that. I have no objection but let's not be somehow blaming tradition or something.

It prevents our girls being affected by the antichrist education and ensures that they keep their promise given to her husband in church at wedding ceremony; to be obedient and clean of all civilized dirt.

I agree and I think the problem isn't mostly in the women ... but the men! Your in Yerevan bro, so I don't think I need to explain.

Saco, I've got to see this!!!!

Out of ALL I said, this is all you could find? lol. you asked for it.

I don't want to go very deep into detail because the point of this thread will be lost in time. One very small example of what I'm saying is a small Armenian boy here in Yerevan that won a talent contest on TV. He could name you every single part of the world (showing it on a map), talk about history, and let you know things you probably don't know and wouldn't know, lol. He was 5 if I'm not mistaken and he won the contest and is now in Disney World with his family (that was his prize)!

Another example is Cole Marcus, a four year old that could beat the drums better then thousands of drummers that have been playing for years. Most drummers get tired after awhile, naturally, because their hands start to hurt, right? Well this kid was FOUR and played as if he had 20 years of experience. Now, what do you call this...TALENT? Lol, this is way beyond that my friend.

The question I think is ... do you believe in life after death or reincarnation which not only the Hindu culture talks about but also the Bible? If you don't then you'll just say this is talent .... real great talent. It's beyond that, Hrai .... way beyond that. These kids were BORN the way they were. They didn't gather their experience as the years went by.

What is the one thing we can take with us after death, Hrai? All that we've learned. Our EXPERIENCE, knowledge, wisdom. NOTHIN MORE, NOTHING LESS. That's why, don't think everything is based on ones talents because talent itself is based on experience. When your born with a certain "talent", that's because of your past experience. All this has been proven a million times so I'll stop here, yekhpayr.