Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

[Kattie]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I agree. I've seen it happen with my nieces who went from lively and playful to extremely serious and almost dull because their parents kept repressing what you call a woman's "natural inclination to charm". It was sad to watch it happen.

Did you do anything to change the situation? Would you care to tell us more? Thanks.

Foul!
That was below the belt!~

"A criminal is frequently no equal to his deed: he makes it smaller and slanders it." (Nietzsche)
I will admit my crime instead of belittling my deed by trying to hide behind justifications.

I hesitated for a while but some think that "...the just argument against a stupid head is a clenched fist." (Nietzsche)
I just hope that he got the message.

Wait a minute are you implying………………This reminds me of that crazy old man that used to tell me. “Those were the days my boy when men were men and the sheep were scared” hahahaha

No, it did not cross my mind. Have you watched "Padre Padrone"?

Lass, if ye read what I said, I was merely saying that you find this amongst non Armenians and drew a parrellel, I did not mean to insult you and there was no need to get defensive, although I am flattered that you read my previous posts to see how many Armenians I do know, gracias for that btw

I guess I just couldn't see the reason behind the rudeness, I did not mean to offend you if you think that was my intention

First of all, what gave you the impression that I've "read your previous posts to see how many Armenians you know"? You said it in your post that you have "never met many Armenians in real life"

Second of all, I don't see anything "defensive" or "rude" in noticing the awkwardness of a situation where someone who EXPLICITLY says that he has "never met many Armenians in real life" is explaining to an Armenian woman how Armenian women are.

Third of all, in the context of your post, what is "defensive" or "rude" in:

"Charms and docility do not always go together, there are non-docile females who are masculine and lack charms, and there are outspoken, independent minded females with plenty of charms.

I said "not all cultures". I don't consider Arabs as a reference when it come to charms and open mindedness, but I can appreciate the refinements and role of geishas in traditional Japanese culture.

First of all, all is relative. Second of all, I said "not all cultures". Most of all, does domestic violence in other cultures justify the situation?"

I'm sorry if that's how you perceived it.

My point is is that you will find this all over, women have been treated like crap worldwide, it isn't just amongst Armenians, you find it in Mexico, Asia, Africa, even the "heart of Moral decency" Europe, I agree it is a terrible issue and people seriously need to give more rights towards women, men to a large part are to blame, this is true of any society that has a lot of patriarchy which is found in most modern day societies

she forgets that all the things she points out aren't exclusive to Armenians, but in patriarchical societies in general, we actually are having a similar discussion now at Chicano.org for a few months now (Machismo, good or bad for culture)

The point I am trying to make is alot of it isn't due to Armenian women, or Mexican women, or Irish women, or Greek women or Muslim women or whatever, its more to do with the fact that alot of men are to blame, and have been pretty much oppressing women for years

Both question were already addressed several times, please read the thread because it's not productive to repeatedly answer the same questions. Sisyphus is not my ideal. Thanks for understanding. The last time was yesterday in my reply to Lucin.
I appreciate your participation but can we please go beyond repeating widely accepted commonplaces that are not even questioned?

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I urge everyone following this thread to read the thread I posted about the life of Atom Egoyan and how he struggled to deal with assimilation.

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php?t=16723

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Sorry bro, I can't agree with you here ! Every part of life has it's beauty and marriage is a very beautiful but serious part of it. It has it's problems (naturally) but I wouldn't say you aren't free after marriage...you just have to be more responsible. And something we should remember I think is that whether we believe in free will or not, we will never be really free in this world. We aren't here to be Free Willy, lol, if you get my drift.

Bottom line ... Marriage is a whole new world ...... it's just how you perceive it!

LOL, Saco what I mean is you should never feel like you're trapped, in debt to your marriage.... stuck in one job for the rest of your life... never really learning anything past school. Generally I think this is what happens to many people in American culture because they care more about material possessions than their own freedom. And that isn't my culture.

[Sako]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Saco at his young age has seen more of the world than so called "rich" and "wealthy" Americans can even imagine exists.

I am only humbled by your words, Kanada ! There is still tons to learn though. I even learned a lot from this thread. Thanks a lot everyone.

Their culture traps them, never allowing them the freedom to experience the world.

Exactly. They think they have freedom. What they don't understand is that it's that EXACT same "freedom" that binds their hands further. It's upside down. Imagine quicksand. The more you struggle, the more it sucks you in! The US is something very similar.

[Sako]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

From what I have found, people tend to stop experiencing the world after they are married, and not before.... the only thing that changes after marriage is your freedom... and as a believer in free will, it shouldn't be that way.

Sorry bro, I can't agree with you here ! Every part of life has it's beauty and marriage is a very beautiful but serious part of it. It has it's problems (naturally) but I wouldn't say you aren't free after marriage...you just have to be more responsible. And something we should remember I think is that whether we believe in free will or not, we will never be really free in this world. We aren't here to be Free Willy, lol, if you get my drift.

Bottom line ... Marriage is a whole new world ...... it's just how you perceive it!

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Ohh kanada,your guessing again!
I hope you will be lucky enough to know one day.

I think you're guessing on what I was referring to!!! Unless you're independently wealthy of course.... why haven't so many Americans seen anything outside of their little world? Saco at his young age has seen more of the world than so called "rich" and "wealthy" Americans can even imagine exists.

Their culture traps them, never allowing them the freedom to experience the world.

[Gavur]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

From what I have found, people tend to stop experiencing the world after they are married, and not before.... the only thing that changes after marriage is your freedom... and as a believer in free will, it shouldn't be that way.

Ohh kanada,your guessing again!
I hope you will be lucky enough to know one day.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

So what are you suggesting, that Kanada and I have no experience? What makes you so sure?

From what I have found, people tend to stop experiencing the world after they are married, and not before.... the only thing that changes after marriage is your freedom... and as a believer in free will, it shouldn't be that way.

"Freedom comes from knowledge and proper behavior. We’re here to learn, aren’t we? And the only reason people call our traditions “old” and our people “old minded” is because they don’t have any standards. It’s not us that need to change…"~Saco
Quoted for truth

[Sako]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Thats what i have been saying all along Saco but you still percieve my comments as being somehow antiarmenian.

I'm not saying your antiarmenian but don't try to hide the fact that this conversation was going in a very different direction a few pages back. It's only now that we're looking at the bigger picture. Before, I constantly kept hearing people blaming our traditional upbringing and running off without properly backing up they're claims. I don't like that, Haykakan. I feel that's dissing our traditions and perhaps indirectly ... our people and country as well. No one, till now, answered my question.

What Armenian tradition(s) has spoiled our girls?

Unfortunatly this is the lifestyle that is spreading throughout the world including Armenia.Besides the fact that it is unsustainable, it also degenerates humanity into nothing more then money chasing beings who value nothing higher.

That's why we should be thanking our traditions and parents...

Saco jan believe me personal experience is very relavent to this thread and jubject.

So what are you suggesting, that Kanada and I have no experience? What makes you so sure?

Your point is right on! This problem is not uniquly armenian but it is a problem which should be dealt with.

That's not how this thread started off!

Do you need to be a psycho to be a psychologist? Do you need to have experienced sickness and disease to be a doctor?
You'd be suprised how much more you can learn looking from outside in rather than being on the inside.

...Exactly what I've been saying in almost all my posts. You can't ignore this, Haykakan. Somehow, in almost all your posts, you seem to make us look like kids without any experience and I don't see why. So far, we haven't said anything irregular. Fact is, this thread started going in the direction its going in after me, Kanada, and a few others started stating continuously that this is a worldwide issue ... not just an Armenian one. We were being denied on many occasions and now suddenly everyone talks as if that never happened!

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

mmm, I don't think its fair to knock feminism in general, feminism started in a time where women were not allowed to vote, had to marry, could not work, etc,
feminism raises many issues in that fact that in many parts of the world men are legally allowed to rape their women if a woman did not give it up to them for four days

You know, I find this funny because feminism started in the US, UK and France and somehow we all got sucked into it as if all men were guilty!! As you can see, Kattie is blind to everything we type and just keeps pushing her agenda. I'm talking about REAL world problems that I observe in the Armenian community and she is just going on about her blah, blah, blah.

Saco jan believe me personal experience is very relavent to this thread and subject.

Do you need to be a psycho to be a psychologist? Do you need to have experienced sickness and disease to be a doctor?

You'd be suprised how much more you can learn looking from outside in rather than being on the inside.

And where are these feminists now? Go try to find a job and stop your house from being foreclosed and your kids getting tossed out on the street.

Where I thought Kanada had an insight on this issue, was the effects of assimilation, which cannot be dismissed.Unfortunately he didn't follow up on his initial idea, whether that was just shooting in the dark or not I don't know, but rereading his cumulative posts on this thread, I have to admit that's a strong possibility at this point.

There is no point in following up on this because somebody isn't paying attention.

She raises very good points, but she forgets that all the things she points out aren't exclusive to Armenians, but in patriarchical societies in general, we actually are having a similar discussion now at Chicano.org for a few months now (Machismo, good or bad for culture)

England has had a QUEEN for a very long time, maybe it's time for a KING to be the forefront of society.