Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

You say "almost" certain for good reason.You must not have thoroughly read Khatchig Mouradian's article which you yourself posted! You should read it more carefully.

"Crime" in this case doesn't refer to garden variety legality in Ottoman Turkey, it refers to a profound violation of the universal moral code. I don't know how many Armenian dictionaries you have access to, but you should look in every one of them before you make your stand on "calamity". If you don't read Armenian, have someone do it for you. In fact, in a technical sense, the Ottomans violated their own established laws.

"Crime" in English means not only the violation of a law. It also means a serious wrongdoing or offense, an unjust act. That is the primary meaning of
"yeghern".

"A profound violation of the universal moral code"! You are attempting to impose your modern outlooks onto those who were alive 100 years ago in a society that was very different from the one you are living it. Many of the things they would have thought of as a "profound violation of the universal moral code" are today enshrined as basic human rights!

The genocide was rationalised and conceptualised in a religious way by many of those who went through it. It was not rationalised and conceptualised by making it into something as mundane and as secular as a "crime".

Rather than "calamity", maybe "catastrophe" would be a better rendition? And even if "crime" is a more correct rendition, it is not "crime" as you would want it to be, it will be more like the original concept of crime: an offense against God's laws and the natural (i.e. God-created) order of things. And there is also the fact that the genocide was understood by some (including manyArmenians, in particular the clergy, and also by non-participating Muslims) as some sort of divine punishment for sins that its victims had collectively done.

Really, an expert in the usage of Armenian language during this period is needed (fat chance of us finding one of them though).

[londontsi]

Re: Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

" ..... please stop spreading Turkish propaganda.

I agree with you.
You are a good comedian

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

Genocide IS a legal word which describes a clearly defined crime and therefore the grounds to search for justice.

Ex presidents and a current a President have been accused of this crime.

"Genocide" is NOT a legal word - please stop spreading Turkish propaganda.

[londontsi]

Re: Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

Genocide is not a "legal word".

Genocide IS a legal word which describes a clearly defined crime and therefore the grounds to search for justice.

Ex presidents and a current a President have been accused of this crime.

[Haykakan]

Re: Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

The best that can be said for that comment is that it is perfect nonsense.

Its ok i kind of feel the same about your comments about this subject to.

[Diranakir]

Re: Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

I am not sure how you conclude that i lack consciousness but i will tell you or anyone else that there are many more productive things you can be doing then trying to give a meaning to a phrase that obviously was not meant to express such a meaning. There is no dought about the illegal nature of the genocide but the phrase in question in no way deals with that aspect. The phrase is a discription of a unprecidentet so our people made up a name to describe it and they called it what they felt at the time. Sure there are plenty of legal implications to genocide but that is hardly what the people who coined the said phrase were thinking of, they just wanted to describe the undescribable and this is what they came up with. This phrase does indeed describe a terrible criminal act but that meaning is not inherent in the phrase itself.

The best that can be said for that comment is that it is perfect nonsense.

[Haykakan]

Re: Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

What is really sad is the abysmal lack of consciousness that gives no importance at all to what "Medz Yeghern" fundamentally means and sees the issue as so much "word play". Very sad, indeed.

I am not sure how you conclude that i lack consciousness but i will tell you or anyone else that there are many more productive things you can be doing then trying to give a meaning to a phrase that obviously was not meant to express such a meaning. There is no dought about the illegal nature of the genocide but the phrase in question in no way deals with that aspect. The phrase is a discription of a unprecidentet so our people made up a name to describe it and they called it what they felt at the time. Sure there are plenty of legal implications to genocide but that is hardly what the people who coined the said phrase were thinking of, they just wanted to describe the undescribable and this is what they came up with. This phrase does indeed describe a terrible criminal act but that meaning is not inherent in the phrase itself.

[Diranakir]

Re: Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

Genocide is not a "legal word".

I am also almost certain that "metz yegern" DOES NOT mean "Great Crime". Can you imagine life in the Ottoman empire at the start of the 20th century. Our undestanding of the word "crime" would be entirely different from theirs. You call a "crime" something that the state, through laws, has deemed to be illegal. You think of the state as a body that passes those laws to protect its citizens. Ottoman Armenians would never have used a phrase that meant "great crime" - they would have had no understanding of the word "crime". Laws in the Ottoman Empire did not exist to stop "crime", they existed to oppress, they did not exist to protect victims. "Great Calamity" will be a far more accurate translation of what those who first used the phrase meant by its use.

You say "almost" certain for good reason.You must not have thoroughly read Khatchig Mouradian's article which you yourself posted! You should read it more carefully.

"Crime" in this case doesn't refer to garden variety legality in Ottoman Turkey, it refers to a profound violation of the universal moral code. I don't know how many Armenian dictionaries you have access to, but you should look in every one of them before you make your stand on "calamity". If you don't read Armenian, have someone do it for you. In fact, in a technical sense, the Ottomans violated their own established laws.

"Crime" in English means not only the violation of a law. It also means a serious wrongdoing or offense, an unjust act. That is the primary meaning of
"yeghern".

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

Genocide being a legal word DEFINES THE CRIME, therefore a base for JUDGMENT and followed up by THE PUNISHMENT and the wrong being righted.

The word "metz yegern" only describes the CRIME ( more like the event) nothing else. Almost an "abstract" word (legally) not requiring a follow-up.

Genocide is not a "legal word".

I am also almost certain that "metz yegern" DOES NOT mean "Great Crime". Can you imagine life in the Ottoman empire at the start of the 20th century. Our undestanding of the word "crime" would be entirely different from theirs. You call a "crime" something that the state, through laws, has deemed to be illegal. You think of the state as a body that passes those laws to protect its citizens. Ottoman Armenians would never have used a phrase that meant "great crime" - they would have had no understanding of the word "crime". Laws in the Ottoman Empire did not exist to stop "crime", they existed to oppress, they did not exist to protect victims. "Great Calamity" will be a far more accurate translation of what those who first used the phrase meant by its use.

[Diranakir]

Re: Medz Yeghern: Great Crime vs. Great Calamity

Its sad enough that we are chasing our own tails on this issue and arguing about the play on words is even worst. I dont want to disrespect fellow members here but i think we can better spend our time discussing things that actually do matter and might make a difference in real life. Justice for our people will have to come from our own actions not from the declairations of others.

What is really sad is the abysmal lack of consciousness that gives no importance at all to what "Medz Yeghern" fundamentally means and sees the issue as so much "word play". Very sad, indeed.