Current Condition of Armenia

[Armanen]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

Even by your standards that was a long winded reply full of nothingness and of course you had to call me a liberal, commy..etc again. Call me what you like but where the hell did i say Russia should leave Armenia? Dude you makin stuff up caus u got no argument as usual. Sometimes its better to say nothing then to write lies and bs and humiliate yourself all over again. People do have brains and some of us dont need moral guidence from others caus were good people as is. You talk about theories i never promoted as usual u attribute things to me that are not true but its all ok in your book caus so long as u can brand me a liberal then other dimwited people on this forum will hate me to caus of the big L word. The fact is that you can have a relatively free market and have socialism at the same time and this is being done today in countries like Brasil and Argentina and it is extremely successfull-far better actually then the capitalist system was. A free market does not exist in reality in any society because it does not take into account important things like resource sustainability and equity. I agree that Armenia lacks many resources to compete in various fields but getting more lands is not the answer-like how much land do you have to gain to have a navigatable river or exccess to a ocean? and who is going to populate these new lands let alone who is going to fight to get them and who is going to protect them? You have no answers to such basic questions yet you would full heartedly push for a expansionisy war while putting the lives of your people and the existence of your nation in jeapordy. I haveno problem with getting our lands back if the possibility was real and the risks minimal but when people propose an expansionist war now they are proposing the suicide of our nation. We already have kharabagh which has room for people hell all of armenia has room for millions more people but nobody wants to live there. We do not need more land what we need is infastructure in the lands we already have so the farmer can get his produce to market without it spoiling along the way so that our people can be connected to one another, so that education and healthcare will be available to all, so that the cost of doing business will stay low due to availability of transportation and IT. etc.. The realityis that we are far from any ocean and no wetdream scenario is going to get us an ocean either.

I must have hit a nerve since you backed away from supporting your theories of social engineering and communist utopia. What was inaccurate about what I wrote? You hold liberal attitudes concerning society, religion, economics, and you like socialism, which often leads to either national socialism, or to communism. As the EU is finding out, you can't have a welfare state, liberal social attitudes, low birth rates, and still be well off. And I didn't say you wanted Russia to leave, I was pointing out that possibility, because it happened less than 100 years ago. And in fact we are in agreement that Armenia must, at the end of the day, rely on itself to further its goals.

As for arguments, so far your suggestion is to return Armenia to some Soviet model. Do not bring up Argentina or Brazil. In the case of both they have large tracts of land, big resource pool, and Brazil has 190 million people. They are doing well because of their geography, not their socialist model. In fact, the Brazilian economy has cooled in recent months. They do not have free market and socialism, they have socialism light. You know what other country we can list with Argentina and Brazil... Greece! How are they doing? They have the geography, they have the population, they had the FDI, why did they fu*k up so badly? It's more than just the access to easy credit and low interest rate. It is a socio-cultural problem as well. How many Armenians are taking note? If you took the time to read the writings of the socialist and communist fathers, you'd see the end goal is not free enterprise, but a government directed economy and eventually, government dictated way of life. Again, the reason being is that they and you think that theories exist and people must conform to them. Socialism came out of the Franco-Germanic philosophical movements of the 16-19th centuries, and it basically asserts man's rationality can provide answers to all of life's troubles. We just need to think of the theories to achieve it. They ignore the flaws in human nature. They ignore the human condition. Marx read Proudhon as well as Hegel, and both heavily influenced his views and theories. If this simple philosophical history is going over your head then please say so. I can attempt to dumb it down for you.

Where did I say I want absolute free markets. I said limited regulation. And you claim I am making up your position?

Armenia expanding doesn't mean taking over lands under turkish control, that is not possible given current circumstances. What I have suggested is linking up with Russia either via azeri controlled territory, and/or access to the Black Sea by taking back Javakh and continuing into Adjara. If a war erupts against Iran, Russia has hinted that it reserves the right to link up with its base in Gyumri via Georgia. And Armenian leaders, military and political, have said that azerbaijan risks losing more land should it re-launch the war. Hint! Hint!

http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/2012/04/can-armenia-exploit-russias-action-plan.html

Read, think outside the box!

I don't have all the answers and I do not claim to. One thing I am absolutely sure of though, Armenians will not flock to Armenia if it becomes a socialist state. In fact, I suspect more would leave. Another thing I am sure of, Armenians are politically immature. As I mentioned in the previous post, even if Armenia becomes the most advanced and richest state in the region, it would be wiped off from the map in days should the turks invade. Why? Because it has no strategic depth to retreat and form a counter attack. Only option is the Israeli option, make nukes! Or what we are doing now, quartering the Russians. Look at the Baltic states, they are wealthier per capita than Russia, but how long would it take for the Russians to run over all three? Minus NATO, those countries are doomed! What I'm doing is looking at the big picture and trying to consider holistic solutions. You are too busy taking about socialism as a panacea for all of Armenia's troubles.

Why not stick to what you have and make that into something good before you think about getting something you cant get anyways.

That is what I am saying, and adding that we can not rest on our laurels nor accept our geopolitical situation; it is a killer if we do. You are the one talking about socialism, and claiming Soviet Armenia was so much better than modern Armenia. You are the one ignoring Armenian mindset, and you are the one ignoring the obstacles that prevent Armenia from growing. Again, it is not just geopolitical, economic, or political. It is a holistic issue and needs a holistic answer. And I do not claim to have all of the solutions, but I sure as hell will shoot down your c0ckamamie ideas on socialism as the answer.


And please answer my question. Why do you live in the US? Why not Brazil, Argentina, China, N. Korea? After all, they have the set up you wish to see in all countries. As far as I can remember, your parents fled Soviet Armenia.

[Haykakan]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

You can live in a totalitarian government right now. Apply to the PRC or DPRK. If capitalism is so horrible, why are you living in the US? It is sickening to see you support all the liberal bs and try to impose it on a traditional society like that of Armenia.
Materialism does not arise out of capitalism, it arises out of the baseness of human nature. But social engineers such as yourself, think that people will confirm to your theories should the 'perfect' system be set up. Instead of observing how man operates and setting parameters that all can more or less work in and be productive, you and your ilk have communist fantasies.

Our disagreement runs deeper than this issue. Your philosophical position attributes to human reason an unlimited capacity to comprehend, evaluate, and arrange the affairs of our world. So theory first, then people will confirm to it. And in economics, you wish to impose theoretical ideals of production and distribution on all who participate. Failures must await revision of the theory before corrections in practice can take effect. Economic activity is therefore regulated entirely by nonparticipants. I on the other hand, consider human reason bounded by limitations, and in need of moral guidance as it attempts to provide for the future. In this mode of thinking, it's observation, experience, and historical lessons learned that form the basis of society's choice in organizing its institutions. And in economics I believe the government's role is to place the fewest obstacles in the path of individual creativity; where activity is determined by the participants and protected by contract.

As for building up Armenia, the only build up you will be able to achieve is in the immaterial sectors; IT, banking, etc. We lack strategic depth, we lack resources, we lack navigable rivers, well kept roads are hard to maintain due to the natural terrain of the country, etc. Our problem has been that we have not been bold, and have depended solely on others to save us. What I am suggesting for the 100th time, is not to depend on Russia or any other country, but to use any leverage we have over them to allow us to expand when the opportune time comes along. Otherwise, you can spend all the billions of dollars you want to build up Armenia, however it will be gobbled up in days should the turks move in and the Russians move out. It is a geographical imperative that Armenia expand its borders!!

Even by your standards that was a long winded reply full of nothingness and of course you had to call me a liberal, commy..etc again. Call me what you like but where the hell did i say Russia should leave Armenia? Dude you makin stuff up caus u got no argument as usual. Sometimes its better to say nothing then to write lies and bs and humiliate yourself all over again. People do have brains and some of us dont need moral guidence from others caus were good people as is. You talk about theories i never promoted as usual u attribute things to me that are not true but its all ok in your book caus so long as u can brand me a liberal then other dimwited people on this forum will hate me to caus of the big L word. The fact is that you can have a relatively free market and have socialism at the same time and this is being done today in countries like Brasil and Argentina and it is extremely successfull-far better actually then the capitalist system was. A free market does not exist in reality in any society because it does not take into account important things like resource sustainability and equity. I agree that Armenia lacks many resources to compete in various fields but getting more lands is not the answer-like how much land do you have to gain to have a navigatable river or exccess to a ocean? and who is going to populate these new lands let alone who is going to fight to get them and who is going to protect them? You have no answers to such basic questions yet you would full heartedly push for a expansionisy war while putting the lives of your people and the existence of your nation in jeapordy. I haveno problem with getting our lands back if the possibility was real and the risks minimal but when people propose an expansionist war now they are proposing the suicide of our nation. We already have kharabagh which has room for people hell all of armenia has room for millions more people but nobody wants to live there. We do not need more land what we need is infastructure in the lands we already have so the farmer can get his produce to market without it spoiling along the way so that our people can be connected to one another, so that education and healthcare will be available to all, so that the cost of doing business will stay low due to availability of transportation and IT. etc.. The realityis that we are far from any ocean and no wetdream scenario is going to get us an ocean either. Why not stick to what you have and make that into something good before you think about getting something you cant get anyways.

[Armanen]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

Glorifying the past? I do believe that is your department not mine. I in no way glorify the past - i merely stated facts and if the facts seem glorious to you about the soviet era then perhaps that means something to. As bad as communism was it was far better then what we have had since or anything we will have in the forseeable future. Having a job, security, education, healthcare.. these are not trivial things but they are the neccesities of life without which you cannot hope to develope anything worth developing. These neccesities are absent from modern day Armenia nor are they anywhere near around the corner for her either. These are simply the neccesities of life i mention but what about the peoples mentality and the discusting materialism which the capitalist system has imposed upon our people now? The love for science, learning, discovery and people has turned into nothing but the love of money and ones self. Good luck developing a nation with people who care about nothing but money. A socialist system is far better for the people of any society including our own and the world gets it with more nations choosing a form of socialism every day and i know most people who lived under the USSR would choose that life over the ones they have now. I personaly have been witnessing for decades our people in the diaspora line up, listen to bs from american polititions, give them money and invariably get disapointed and i dont want the same thing to happen in Russia. Russia knows how important we are to it and our reminders will not make it change its mind. Using our resources and people to build a nation we would wana live in just might change the mind of some diasporans to live in Armenia or atleast for the armenians there not to leave. Our future lies in our own hands not the hands of USA or Russia. I was reading how the people of Meghri cannot get their products to Yerevan markets because no good roads exist and the fruits spoil. Instead of funding 2faced politions in USA or Russia we should be building a road to Meghri. I realize that most diasporans gave up on Armenia long ago but some of us have not. I realize that some diasporans feel good when the state senator shakes their hand and takes their money but some of us feel better using that money to go to Armenia and spend it there. I know its easier to revel in some expansionist wet dream but some of us still live in the real world. We need ten more Armenia fund projects to add much needed infustructure and schools we do not need more special interest groups.

You can live in a totalitarian government right now. Apply to the PRC or DPRK. If capitalism is so horrible, why are you living in the US? It is sickening to see you support all the liberal bs and try to impose it on a traditional society like that of Armenia.
Materialism does not arise out of capitalism, it arises out of the baseness of human nature. But social engineers such as yourself, think that people will confirm to your theories should the 'perfect' system be set up. Instead of observing how man operates and setting parameters that all can more or less work in and be productive, you and your ilk have communist fantasies.

Our disagreement runs deeper than this issue. Your philosophical position attributes to human reason an unlimited capacity to comprehend, evaluate, and arrange the affairs of our world. So theory first, then people will confirm to it. And in economics, you wish to impose theoretical ideals of production and distribution on all who participate. Failures must await revision of the theory before corrections in practice can take effect. Economic activity is therefore regulated entirely by nonparticipants. I on the other hand, consider human reason bounded by limitations, and in need of moral guidance as it attempts to provide for the future. In this mode of thinking, it's observation, experience, and historical lessons learned that form the basis of society's choice in organizing its institutions. And in economics I believe the government's role is to place the fewest obstacles in the path of individual creativity; where activity is determined by the participants and protected by contract.

As for building up Armenia, the only build up you will be able to achieve is in the immaterial sectors; IT, banking, etc. We lack strategic depth, we lack resources, we lack navigable rivers, well kept roads are hard to maintain due to the natural terrain of the country, etc. Our problem has been that we have not been bold, and have depended solely on others to save us. What I am suggesting for the 100th time, is not to depend on Russia or any other country, but to use any leverage we have over them to allow us to expand when the opportune time comes along. Otherwise, you can spend all the billions of dollars you want to build up Armenia, however it will be gobbled up in days should the turks move in and the Russians move out. It is a geographical imperative that Armenia expand its borders!!

[Haykakan]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

If Russia wants to control the Caucasus it must have an ally in the region. So far we are the only ones, and behind Belarus their closest ally. In international affairs there are only interests not friends. It is a geopolitical imperative for Moscow to control the South Caucasus in order to control the North Caucasus. They can only do this with Armenia. I strongly believe policy-makers in Moscow could be persuaded to not hinder or even help Armenia to become stronger, if we as a collective showed them that our interests align. Instead we have scum like Raffi Hovanisian, Vartan Oskanyan, Richard Giragosian, and a host of other Western agents that continue to seek ways to drive a wedge between Moscow and Yerevan. So as long as Armenian remain politically illiterate, and emotional when it comes to politics, as long as we rely on Western aid, then officials in Moscow will not feel confident in us not betraying them.

I do not think anyone here believes that Armenia should rely on another nation or state to achieve its goals, but some of us do see the importance of having a strong protector who's interests can be brought even closer to those of Armenia with some far sighted and pan-Armenian policies. Armenia can more than handle itself against azerbaijan, but against turkey and azerbaijan, no. The Artsakh issue will be solved through another round of fighting, just because I say that does not mean I like war or think it will be a cake walk.

Armenia's problems steam largely from its culture, and more so from the geography of the country. Greeks and Greece should be teaching us a very important lesson about societies and nations, yet, how many Armenians are paying attention much less aware of the similarities and lessons to be drawn? Few. So in its current artificial borders, and with Soviet mentality of the generation in power Armenia will not get far. I pin our hopes on the newer generations, those born in 80s and higher, who for the first time in 600 years grew up in a Armenia that was not overtly dominated by a foreign power. A nation born free exudes confidence that a subject people will never understand or be able to emulate.

Soviet Armenia like the rest of the ussr had no true freedoms, it was becoming stagnant, and corruption was a part of life. It's just that people had a job to go to, didn't have to worry about how they would feed their family, send their kids to college, or provide for their overall well being. I would rather live in modern Armenia than Soviet Armenia. The USSR did some good things for Armenia, like bring it up to the industrialized world, provide education for more people than ever before, and afford it the protection that only a super power can offer. However, the fact remains that communism is a horrible system to live under and can not sustain itself. It limits the individual as well as the state. So perhaps you would like to move to the workers paradise, maybe Cuba or Laos, but I for one prefer and independent and hopefully soon to be nationalistic state. Delusions are harmful, but so is artificially glorifying the past or living in the past.

Glorifying the past? I do believe that is your department not mine. I in no way glorify the past - i merely stated facts and if the facts seem glorious to you about the soviet era then perhaps that means something to. As bad as communism was it was far better then what we have had since or anything we will have in the forseeable future. Having a job, security, education, healthcare.. these are not trivial things but they are the neccesities of life without which you cannot hope to develope anything worth developing. These neccesities are absent from modern day Armenia nor are they anywhere near around the corner for her either. These are simply the neccesities of life i mention but what about the peoples mentality and the discusting materialism which the capitalist system has imposed upon our people now? The love for science, learning, discovery and people has turned into nothing but the love of money and ones self. Good luck developing a nation with people who care about nothing but money. A socialist system is far better for the people of any society including our own and the world gets it with more nations choosing a form of socialism every day and i know most people who lived under the USSR would choose that life over the ones they have now. I personaly have been witnessing for decades our people in the diaspora line up, listen to bs from american polititions, give them money and invariably get disapointed and i dont want the same thing to happen in Russia. Russia knows how important we are to it and our reminders will not make it change its mind. Using our resources and people to build a nation we would wana live in just might change the mind of some diasporans to live in Armenia or atleast for the armenians there not to leave. Our future lies in our own hands not the hands of USA or Russia. I was reading how the people of Meghri cannot get their products to Yerevan markets because no good roads exist and the fruits spoil. Instead of funding 2faced politions in USA or Russia we should be building a road to Meghri. I realize that most diasporans gave up on Armenia long ago but some of us have not. I realize that some diasporans feel good when the state senator shakes their hand and takes their money but some of us feel better using that money to go to Armenia and spend it there. I know its easier to revel in some expansionist wet dream but some of us still live in the real world. We need ten more Armenia fund projects to add much needed infustructure and schools we do not need more special interest groups.

[Mos]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

If Russia wants to control the Caucasus it must have an ally in the region. So far we are the only ones, and behind Belarus their closest ally. In international affairs there are only interests not friends. It is a geopolitical imperative for Moscow to control the South Caucasus in order to control the North Caucasus. They can only do this with Armenia. I strongly believe policy-makers in Moscow could be persuaded to not hinder or even help Armenia to become stronger, if we as a collective showed them that our interests align. Instead we have scum like Raffi Hovanisian, Vartan Oskanyan, Richard Giragosian, and a host of other Western agents that continue to seek ways to drive a wedge between Moscow and Yerevan. So as long as Armenian remain politically illiterate, and emotional when it comes to politics, as long as we rely on Western aid, then officials in Moscow will not feel confident in us not betraying them.

I do not think anyone here believes that Armenia should rely on another nation or state to achieve its goals, but some of us do see the importance of having a strong protector who's interests can be brought even closer to those of Armenia with some far sighted and pan-Armenian policies. Armenia can more than handle itself against azerbaijan, but against turkey and azerbaijan, no. The Artsakh issue will be solved through another round of fighting, just because I say that does not mean I like war or think it will be a cake walk.

Armenia's problems steam largely from its culture, and more so for the geography of the country. Greeks and Greece should be teaching us a very important lesson about societies and nations, yet, how many Armenians are paying attention much less aware of the similarities and lessons to be drawn? Few. So in its current artificial borders, and with Soviet mentality of the generation in power Armenia will not get far. I pin our hopes on the newer generations, those born in 80s and higher, who for the first time in 600 years grew up in a Armenia that was not overtly dominated by a foreign power. A nation born free exudes confidence that a subject people will never understand or be able to emulate.

Soviet Armenia like the rest of the ussr had no true freedoms, it was becoming stagnant, and corruption was a part of life. It's just that people had a job to go to, didn't have to worry about how they would feed their family, send their kids to college, or provide for their overall well being. I would rather live in modern Armenia than Soviet Armenia. The USSR did some good things for Armenia, like bring it up to the industrialized world, provide education for more people than ever before, and afford it the protection that only a super power can offer. However, the fact remains that communism is a horrible system to live under and can not sustain itself. It limits the individual as well as the state. So perhaps you would like to move to the workers paradise, maybe Cuba or Laos, but I for one prefer and independent and hopefully soon to be nationalistic state. Delusions are harmful, but so is artificially glorifying the past or living in the past.

Let me add a few points. Serzh has actually very poor relations with Putin and during his Presidency relations with Moscow have cooled a bit. We have seen our government go towards Europe more in the past few years, and Tigran Sargsyan has forged close ties with EU political structures. That being said, this is only a minor shift, not a major shift, and our main strategic relations remain with Russia. Though we have diversified our strategic/political relations a bit.

USSR enabled Armenia to solidify our national character and culture, to recover from the Genocide, and "refresh" our identity and culture. USSR actually did a lot of good for the Armenian nation in my view, it advanced us in many ways. The transition from USSR to Independence was rough of course. Migration is a major problem and I believe there's also increasing moral corruption in the society. Of course, there are many things also going well, but we need to be on top of the problems.

[Armanen]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

Your last sentence is exactly my point. As for our borders we simply cannot guarentee our own security. It is a fact that the genocidal maniac lives next door and has a huge army and that we cannot defend ourselves against this threat let alone the the azeri threat or any other. Even if we did not have the azeri threat to worry about we still could not defend against Turky. If Russia or USA could be persuaded to defend our interests then by all means i would say we should lobby them but the fact is that Russia only cares about its own interests(which is how it should be) and the USA is dominated by our enemies inerests. Only we armenians will be working for our own interests. As for soviet Armenia there was much more then just jobs, there was physical as well as economic security, there was education and healthcare and... there were many reasons to live in soviet Armenia way more reasons then to live in the present day republic. If people formed their opinions on facts and reality the world would be a better place but to many here it feels good to talk about getting to the black sea or all the way to Baku.. The worst thing a person can do is wallow in his own delusions hurting himself and others around him while doing it. I do not want the armenian nation to be that person.

If Russia wants to control the Caucasus it must have an ally in the region. So far we are the only ones, and behind Belarus their closest ally. In international affairs there are only interests not friends. It is a geopolitical imperative for Moscow to control the South Caucasus in order to control the North Caucasus. They can only do this with Armenia. I strongly believe policy-makers in Moscow could be persuaded to not hinder or even help Armenia to become stronger, if we as a collective showed them that our interests align. Instead we have scum like Raffi Hovanisian, Vartan Oskanyan, Richard Giragosian, and a host of other Western agents that continue to seek ways to drive a wedge between Moscow and Yerevan. So as long as Armenian remain politically illiterate, and emotional when it comes to politics, as long as we rely on Western aid, then officials in Moscow will not feel confident in us not betraying them.

I do not think anyone here believes that Armenia should rely on another nation or state to achieve its goals, but some of us do see the importance of having a strong protector who's interests can be brought even closer to those of Armenia with some far sighted and pan-Armenian policies. Armenia can more than handle itself against azerbaijan, but against turkey and azerbaijan, no. The Artsakh issue will be solved through another round of fighting, just because I say that does not mean I like war or think it will be a cake walk.

Armenia's problems steam largely from its culture, and more so from the geography of the country. Greeks and Greece should be teaching us a very important lesson about societies and nations, yet, how many Armenians are paying attention much less aware of the similarities and lessons to be drawn? Few. So in its current artificial borders, and with Soviet mentality of the generation in power Armenia will not get far. I pin our hopes on the newer generations, those born in 80s and higher, who for the first time in 600 years grew up in a Armenia that was not overtly dominated by a foreign power. A nation born free exudes confidence that a subject people will never understand or be able to emulate.

Soviet Armenia like the rest of the ussr had no true freedoms, it was becoming stagnant, and corruption was a part of life. It's just that people had a job to go to, didn't have to worry about how they would feed their family, send their kids to college, or provide for their overall well being. I would rather live in modern Armenia than Soviet Armenia. The USSR did some good things for Armenia, like bring it up to the industrialized world, provide education for more people than ever before, and afford it the protection that only a super power can offer. However, the fact remains that communism is a horrible system to live under and can not sustain itself. It limits the individual as well as the state. So perhaps you would like to move to the workers paradise, maybe Cuba or Laos, but I for one prefer and independent and hopefully soon to be nationalistic state. Delusions are harmful, but so is artificially glorifying the past or living in the past.

[Haykakan]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

Your last sentence is exactly my point. As for our borders we simply cannot guarentee our own security. It is a fact that the genocidal maniac lives next door and has a huge army and that we cannot defend ourselves against this threat let alone the the azeri threat or any other. Even if we did not have the azeri threat to worry about we still could not defend against Turky. If Russia or USA could be persuaded to defend our interests then by all means i would say we should lobby them but the fact is that Russia only cares about its own interests(which is how it should be) and the USA is dominated by our enemies inerests. Only we armenians will be working for our own interests. As for soviet Armenia there was much more then just jobs, there was physical as well as economic security, there was education and healthcare and... there were many reasons to live in soviet Armenia way more reasons then to live in the present day republic. If people formed their opinions on facts and reality the world would be a better place but to many here it feels good to talk about getting to the black sea or all the way to Baku.. The worst thing a person can do is wallow in his own delusions hurting himself and others around him while doing it. I do not want the armenian nation to be that person.

[Armanen]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

http://news.am/eng/news/110156.html

[Armanen]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

Niether the USA nor Russia nor Iran want a strong independent Armenia. To make a nation we can all be proud of we will have to do the work ourselves while flying under the radar as much as possible. Specialinterest groups like the ones in the USA are the reason why the USA is doomed to fail because special interest gets its way at the cost of national interest. Russia is smart enough not to allow such organizations to take control of its government. The mentality we armenians have of relying on everyone but ourselves in furthering our interests is a disease. We need the big power (russia) for security but Russia has no interest in creating a greater Armenia-it needs us to be weak so we will always be under its control. The population in Armenia has been decreasing for decades yet people here talk of a greater Armenia. The population of Armenia is too small to gaurd its present borders let alone to expand. Befor we can even think about expanding we need to build a country that people want to live in fist. War is not a joke and unless the outcome is certain one should never engage in it-not for expansion perposes anyways. The war we won almost destroyed our contry and led to a debilitating braindrain Armenia will probably never recover from. Nation building is not only about expansion it must be about making the country a place people will want to raise families in. We had that during the soviet days but have not had it since. Increasing our presence in the russian political sphere is a great idea but thinking that this will lead to a greater Armenia is not.

The only reason people wanted to live in Soviet Armenia was because there were jobs, and frankly getting out was not easy, until about the 1980s. Armenia's population is not too small to guard its borders, the issue is that there are hostile enemies on two fronts, one that has the 2nd largest military in NATO.

I agree about special interest groups. What I don't agree with is that Armenians can not or should not try to convince Russian policy-makers to not hinder or help with Armenia's growth. I do not think Russia wants a weak Armenia just because, if it saw that Armenians would still be aligned with them they would consider it. A strong ally is better than a weak one, the issue is that sometimes a strong ally may not go along with the bigger partners wishes.

[Haykakan]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

Niether the USA nor Russia nor Iran want a strong independent Armenia. To make a nation we can all be proud of we will have to do the work ourselves while flying under the radar as much as possible. Specialinterest groups like the ones in the USA are the reason why the USA is doomed to fail because special interest gets its way at the cost of national interest. Russia is smart enough not to allow such organizations to take control of its government. The mentality we armenians have of relying on everyone but ourselves in furthering our interests is a disease. We need the big power (russia) for security but Russia has no interest in creating a greater Armenia-it needs us to be weak so we will always be under its control. The population in Armenia has been decreasing for decades yet people here talk of a greater Armenia. The population of Armenia is too small to gaurd its present borders let alone to expand. Befor we can even think about expanding we need to build a country that people want to live in fist. War is not a joke and unless the outcome is certain one should never engage in it-not for expansion perposes anyways. The war we won almost destroyed our contry and led to a debilitating braindrain Armenia will probably never recover from. Nation building is not only about expansion it must be about making the country a place people will want to raise families in. We had that during the soviet days but have not had it since. Increasing our presence in the russian political sphere is a great idea but thinking that this will lead to a greater Armenia is not.