Was he a hero?

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Was he a hero?

Sip makes a good point. He's not making a value-judgment about the linked site. He's simply saying that when we do encounter sites that are inaccurate, sources of misinformation, or whatever, that we make them appear more legitimate by linking to them.

The words "By linking to such garbage" is not making a judgment about the linked site?

To stop a url becoming a clickable and searchable link, just untick the "Automatically parse links in text" option in the advanced editing window.
See, there is now no clickable link: http://www.moreorless.au.com/heroes/ataturk.html

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Was he a hero?

Obviously I haven't read a word of it and don't plan to.

Even if it is highly accurate and totally awesome, I still don't think we want to link to it if it leaves out, you know, the little G-word. That's pretty much what I was saying so hope this is the end of the "argument which never was"

In other words, you have read a post about a webpage that has the words "hero" and "Ataturk" in it, and your knee-jerk reaction, without even bothering to read the webpage, is to call the whole of it "garbage". Do you think that is a productive attitude to take? No wonder most non-Armenians respond to Armenian protests about this or that by thinking "probably just more Armenian bull".

And the webpage does mention the Armenian Genocide, and calls it a genocide.

[Siggie]

Re: Was he a hero?

To be fair, I was making a value judgement in the beginning based on what Lampron said but I take that back and you are right. I don't make a value judgement anymore (other than judging it has 0, or actually maybe negative value for me personally ). Yes I am a jackass when it comes to Turkish heroes (well, at least about the "national" ones they love to rant and rave about and lock you up or kill you if you disagree).

I think all governments probably do some editing of history, but with Turkey, you'd be right to be extra dubious.

[Armanen]

Re: Was he a hero?

To be fair, I was making a value judgement in the beginning based on what Lampron said but I take that back and you are right. I don't make a value judgement anymore (other than judging it has 0, or actually maybe negative value for me personally ). Yes I am a jackass when it comes to Turkish heroes (well, at least about the "national" ones they love to rant and rave about and lock you up or kill you if you disagree).

I don't think you are being a jack@ss at all by having that attitude. It is a good attitude.

[Sip]

Re: Was he a hero?

Sip makes a good point. He's not making a value-judgment about the linked site.

To be fair, I was making a value judgement in the beginning based on what Lampron said but I take that back and you are right. I don't make a value judgement anymore (other than judging it has 0, or actually maybe negative value for me personally ). Yes I am a jackass when it comes to Turkish heroes (well, at least about the "national" ones they love to rant and rave about and lock you up or kill you if you disagree).

[Siggie]

Re: Was he a hero?

Sip makes a good point. He's not making a value-judgment about the linked site. He's simply saying that when we do encounter sites that are inaccurate, sources of misinformation, or whatever, that we make them appear more legitimate by linking to them.

When we link to "bad" sites we're helping them and we get associated with them too. I think this gets factored into the way Google (and other search engines) ranks them or something? I seem to remember a way of linking that doesn't do that. I'd have to hunt for this a bit because I don't really blog and so I didn't make note.

I've seen people cite websites like this: moreorless (dot) au (dot) com/heroes/ataturk.html to get around it, but I think there must be a better alternative?

[Sip]

Re: Was he a hero?

Quote me some of the alleged "garbage". The content is actually very accurate and surprisingly comprehensive given its aims andthat is is just some website. The errors are those of omission and lack of interpretation.

Once again, I'll let you and Lampron figure this out. I have very little interest in Turkish "heros". So whether it is true or not, accurate or not, garbage or not, I'll let you guys figure it out. Obviously I haven't read a word of it and don't plan to.

Even if it is highly accurate and totally awesome, I still don't think we want to link to it if it leaves out, you know, the little G-word. That's pretty much what I was saying so hope this is the end of the "argument which never was"

[lampron]

Re: Was he a hero?

'Hero' should be for someone who has campaigned in difficult circumstances to uphold or advance a set of universal values

Kemal was probably a hero to many Turks because he created a large Turkish homeland (capturing territory
that was not even Ottoman at the start of the war)

But not to all Turks because he also persecuted and killed those who challenged his authority after he took power.

If he had taken genuine steps to make peace with Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Kurds and dissident Turks after his victories,
that would be different

Many of the characters in that website deserve to be called heroes but Kemal is not one of them.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Was he a hero?

When did I say pretend such sites don't exist? I only said you probably don't want to LINK to it. You can still discuss it of course.

As far as Bell's question, I'll let lampron explain why he thinks the site is flawed (deeply flawed = garbage .. no?).

I don't need lampron to explain why the content is "flawed" (the main flaw is the subjective and questionable "hero" label), I want you to explain why you think the content is "garbage". Quote me some of the alleged "garbage". The content is actually very accurate and surprisingly comprehensive given its aims andthat is is just some website. The errors are those of omission and lack of interpretation.

[HermanGerman]

Re: Was he a hero?

Mustafa Kemal's role model was a nice italian guy, Benito Mussolini !
Unfortunately only in German: