So... which countries are our "friends"?

[Selcen]

If you are such a smart and patient people how come you are in the situation you are now?

[Selcen]

You can already go picknicking beneath Ararat right now. All you have to do is hop on a plane and come visit us. Don't worry your grandsons will be able to buy homes at Lake Sevan anyway.

[Selcen]

How come your population decreased by more than a million people in the last decade which didn't happen in other former Soviet countries? Armenians are flocking away from what they already have and you expect more? Keep dreaming. Other countries like Azerbaijan and Georgia are also dirt poor, but they are still patriotic enough to stay in their country and suffer in dignity. The same goes for millions of Turks who live in poverty but stand by their country.

[winoman]

This is interesting, Turks love to say they are not responsible for anything negative that came out of the Ottoman Empire, which is plenty indeed but then you go and brag your heads and claim anything positive or constructive. Cant have your cake and eat it too.

Yup...and this extends to Turkic acheivements (both mythic and real) throughout history. Obviously if the Turks aren't essentially equivilent to the Ottoman Empire (and certianly comprised the ruling elites etc) then I don't know who is. I do understand Selcen's points however - and while there is much perhaps for Turks to be proud of in their heritage there is also much that is shameful.

Speaking of janisaries and related...I'm thinking of that website "Saditic Sultans of the ottoman Empire" - ever see that one...here is some info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_the_Ottoman_Empire

The Dancing Boys
Competing—successfully—with the women of the harem for the affection of the Ottoman noble were young males in various functions, chief among whom were the entertainers, known as köçeks. They traveled in troupes and were skilled in music, dancing, and erotic pleasures. The average troupe—named after its leader—would have about thirty dancers, though some had several hundred. When not on stage, köçeks would work in coffee-houses and taverns, where they would serve drinks, flirt, and be available for trysts with the clientele.

They were highly sought by all nobles of all ranks, including the Sultan. Köçeks wore elegant and gaudy costumes, had long curly hair, and were immortalized in books discussing their qualities and ranking them by nationality, such as the Huban-nameh of Enderunlu Fazil.

(just sick)...anyway...

Janisaries -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissaries

The first janissary units comprised war captives and slaves. After the 1380s Sultan Selim I filled their ranks with the results of taxation in human form called devshirmeh. The sultan’s men would conscript a number of non-Muslim, usually Christian, boys – at first at random, later by strict selection – and take them to be trained. In later centuries they seem to have preferred primarily Albanians, Bosniaks and Bulgarians. Usually they would select about 1 in 5 boys of ages 7-14 but the numbers could be changed to correspond with the need for soldiers. Later they would extend the devshirmeh to Greece and Hungary. Of course, residents could hardly appreciate the custom.

[Selcen]

Yes, there is nothing to defend about them. No one does that except some Muslim lunatics and Islamists who glorify the Ottoman Empire's everything. Unfortunately since we have a Muslim fundamentalist in the government it is very difficult to get rid of that mentality.

[winoman]

How come your population decreased by more than a million people in the last decade which didn't happen in other former Soviet countries? Armenians are flocking away from what they already have and you expect more? Keep dreaming. Other countries like Azerbaijan and Georgia are also dirt poor, but they are still patriotic enough to stay in their country and suffer in dignity. The same goes for millions of Turks who live in poverty but stand by their country.

Guess Armenians are just smarter and more capable and more concerned with providing the best environment for their families and children. Sure Armenia -a small land locked(and unlike Georgia and Ajerbaijian) resouce poor nation suffering from both the Soviet legacy (and post Soviet corruption) as well as earlier decimation by turkey and continued boycotts and such - is not so well off. It will take time - but with Diasporan support and native inginuity - they will pull it off and be OK. Prosperity doesn't happen overnight if one does not have oil or such. Turkey is no great example however - even with all of its resources - legacy of Empire, stolen Armenian and Greek wealth - it is still struggling and there is great poverty and ignorance (witness the rise of Islam again)...so no I wouldn't be so smug if I were you....

[TJ]

You can already go picknicking beneath Ararat right now. All you have to do is hop on a plane and come visit us. Don't worry your grandsons will be able to buy homes at Lake Sevan anyway.

actually i cant considering that you have turned our national symbol into a warzone with kurds.

[TJ]

How come your population decreased by more than a million people in the last decade which didn't happen in other former Soviet countries? Armenians are flocking away from what they already have and you expect more? Keep dreaming. Other countries like Azerbaijan and Georgia are also dirt poor, but they are still patriotic enough to stay in their country and suffer in dignity. The same goes for millions of Turks who live in poverty but stand by their country.

Population of Georgia has decreased by just as much. Go look at figures. There are plenty of Azeri immigrants too, you just dont see anything big in the population because of the extremely high fertility rate. 2.5 currently, while in Armenia and Georgia it is more like 1.4. Turkey it is around 1.95.

[Selcen]

No that place has never been a warzone. The view is simply breathtaking. Come visit us and enjoy our Turkish hospitality.

[winoman]

Yes, there is nothing to defend about them. No one does that except some Muslim lunatics and Islamists who glorify the Ottoman Empire's everything. Unfortunately since we have a Muslim fundamentalist in the government it is very difficult to get rid of that mentality.

Not jst in the government - but in yoru society. I've been there and have seen the changes over the past decade - even from year to year in the past few years...I know urban educated Turks like to think that Turkey is practically European and that European values and standards are the norm - but unfortunatly this is not true outside of the more wealth off urban areas in Western Anatolia. Do you think these Islamics are amatures? Don't be so certain - they know what they are doing as they wittle away and they are well funded from outside. I've seen how they provide charity for the poor (don't forget they were once called the "Welfare party" and for good reason) where the major parties ignore them. Your Kemalist elites are much like the Shah of Iran...isolated and basking in their own continued corruption...meanwhile fostering anti-Western sentiments (to avoid facing up to their sordid past and to maintin their status quo) and this latter brilliant move will certainly be their downfall - and yours...So enjoy your Raki and halter tops while it lasts - i fear that it may not be long before it manditory prayer 5 times a day and black tents for the ladies...