Help with Armenian Nouns!

[Trolley]

I'm trying so hard to learn Eastern Armenian but I can't really find any major resources, things are so unclear! I would so greatly appreciate any help!

I have the declensions of genitive in -i, and -u done (correct me if I am wrong but if it ends in a vowel the genitive is -u like gini, wine=> ginu, of wine)
but then there seem to be loads of "irregular" nouns which are simply listed, I've seen none of them declined in table format, which makes it so unclear to me, and none of them have really been grouped together. I know some have genitives in -an like dun => dan, but then i read also the plural is formed from the stem of that so it is just dner, which is ridiculous. I am at a loss, I have no teacher or textbook Please help

Thanks

[karoaper]

Re: Help with Armenian Nouns!

I'm trying so hard to learn Eastern Armenian but I can't really find any major resources, things are so unclear! I would so greatly appreciate any help!

I have the declensions of genitive in -i, and -u done (correct me if I am wrong but if it ends in a vowel the genitive is -u like gini, wine=> ginu, of wine)
but then there seem to be loads of "irregular" nouns which are simply listed, I've seen none of them declined in table format, which makes it so unclear to me, and none of them have really been grouped together. I know some have genitives in -an like dun => dan, but then i read also the plural is formed from the stem of that so it is just dner, which is ridiculous. I am at a loss, I have no teacher or textbook Please help

Thanks

Don't freak out about the -an suffix for genitive case, all but few words with the -un suffix have the -an genitive suffix, like tun, shun, ariun, garun, ashun and all the countless -tiun words like mardkainutiun, bariutiun, etc. In fact, the cases when this is not true are the irregular words and exceptions, like qun (sleep) or tarkhun (tarragon), etc. The thing about removing the -u to make plural does seem to be void of a rule, unless I'm wrong. Maybe, the words with only one syllable like shun or tun have to remove the -u in plural. But don't worry it's not a big mistake to say shuner and tuner, in fact I'm sure one or another Eastern Armenian dialect says it just like that.

[Trolley]

Re: Help with Armenian Nouns!

shat' mersi, karoaper! I did wonder about whether all those -iun nouns declined with genitive in -an. So really there are quite a lot of nouns with -an genitive

1.Do I have the possessive pronouns right?

mine - im[e], acc. imin, gen. imi, dat. imin etc.?

2.Doesn't Armenian have any 3rd person possessive pronouns, e.g. "his", "hers" -
How do you say then, [which pencil do you write with?] "I write with hers"



3. When ajs, ajt', ajn (this that that) are used as pronouns ( as in "ajd dur" - give me that) can they also be declined in all the other cases?

[karoaper]

Re: Help with Armenian Nouns!

shat' mersi, karoaper! I did wonder about whether all those -iun nouns declined with genitive in -an. So really there are quite a lot of nouns with -an genitive

1.Do I have the possessive pronouns right?

mine - im[e], acc. imin, gen. imi, dat. imin etc.?

2.Doesn't Armenian have any 3rd person possessive pronouns, e.g. "his", "hers" -
How do you say then, [which pencil do you write with?] "I write with hers"



3. When ajs, ajt', ajn (this that that) are used as pronouns ( as in "ajd dur" - give me that) can they also be declined in all the other cases?

charzhi akhper (kam kuir), urakhem kez ognel voreve dzevov.

1. You know, I'm far from being an expert, but I'd say it's correct for dative and genitive, for accusative it's just "Im". However,
in conversational Eastern Armenian, very seldom do you use different cases of mine, mostly you will use "my noun/adj" and change the noun/adj instead. Only tmes I've used mine without the noun/adj is when answering to a question, e.g "Oom tan banalin e sa", I'd say "Iminne" or just "Im". In fact probably just "Im", because to be honest with you "Iminne" sounds goofy. Also, there are two other cases that I don't know the names of: the one used for "with/by something" (the one that usually ends in "ov") and the one for "from/without something" (usually ends in "ic"). In the first case, im-e changes to imov, like "Oom avtoovenk gnalu?, Imov". But then again, it's not a crime to say "Im". For the second case it's simply "Im": "Oom tnic enk gnalu?. Im."

2. her and his is "nra" or "ira" and hers and his is "nran-e" or "iran-e": e.g. "Sa um grichn e?", "Iranne" or "nrann e". Now, you've got to be careful here, because "nran" is also the accusative case for "ink@" or she/he. So, in the example you game "Oom matitov grecir?", you'd answer "Ira" or "Nra", rather than "Nranov" (which actully means "with her", as in you wrote with her). Again, I'm no expert just falling back on conversational use.

3. Finaly the ajs, ajd and ajn, they do change with cases. For accusative, ajs, ajd and ajn change to sran, dran (please use the Eastern spelling here or else it means something totally different ) and nran, same for dative. Genitive would change to sra, dra, nra. The other two cases, "with/by" and "from/without" would change to "sranov, dranov, nranov" and "sranic, dranic, nranic".

Hope this helps. Keep it up.
If anyone sees anything wrong with what I wrote, please bring it up.

[ARK]

Re: Help with Armenian Nouns!

shat' mersi, karoaper! I did wonder about whether all those -iun nouns declined with genitive in -an. So really there are quite a lot of nouns with -an genitive

1.Do I have the possessive pronouns right?

mine - im[e], acc. imin, gen. imi, dat. imin etc.?

2.Doesn't Armenian have any 3rd person possessive pronouns, e.g. "his", "hers" -
How do you say then, [which pencil do you write with?] "I write with hers"



3. When ajs, ajt', ajn (this that that) are used as pronouns ( as in "ajd dur" - give me that) can they also be declined in all the other cases?

where do u live Trolly?
i have some excellent books on grammar, vocab and spelling.

[Trolley]

Re: Help with Armenian Nouns!

yes el em shat' urakh, vor du indz ognel uzum es!

I am using, http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.ph...menian_Lessons - this is the best resource I can find, but it is often very unclear.

The site says the accusative of sa, da, na is just sa, da, na. But ajs, ajd, ajn change to sran, dran, nran? In other cases sa, da, na begins in sran- etc. as (ablative case) "sranic", so I take it that they do they overlap in forms? (as for example the genitive of sa is also sra) It would be helpful if that site set out tables for every case of every pronoun, but instead I have to try and make sense of it all. I also have the textbook "Spoken Eastern Armenian" but it is useless and terribke. I also have "Beginners Armenian" which is for Western Armenian (I am learning Eastern armenian, but I was so desperate that I bought a western book too)

1. Is there any difference between iren and nran? for "him" Does one go with na, and then one with inke?

2. I don't understand inke at all!

(The following are quite short questions now!)

3. Can you use "inch" as an adjective meaning "what" (like inchbisi) ?
"inch girk g'uzes?"

4. Does "ajsbisi" make the noun plural or not? "ajsbisi girker"/"ajsbisi girk"?

5. On the website it is written that in the plural "ajsbisine" is "ajsbisinere", with one "n"...but then "vorbisine" is written "vorbisinnere", with double n. Which is correct?

6. Does "ajskan" (so much, so many) decline in the plural, and does it put its nouns in the plural? (As far as I know kani does not - "kani girk unes?")

I hope you don't mind all this, I personally love discussing the Armenian language. I am Armenian myself but I live in the UK and half of my family is british. Naturally none of my bros/sis speak Armenian and I am quite sick of it, I want to talk to my family. I might be a bit picky but that's because I have to write everything down correctly because my little brother wants to learn too afterwards. Thanks again for all your help!

[womble]

Re: Help with Armenian Nouns!

Hi Trolley, I also live in the UK and have been trying to learn Eastern Armenian from the internet, although you seem to be further along than me. It's not easy without anyone to help with the tricky bits! I have also tried to use that Armeniapedia site, but it won't display the characters correctly on my computer. Do you know where I can find a font that I can download to make them display correctly?

[Trolley]

Re: Help with Armenian Nouns!

womble, I haven't downloaded any extra fonts, I just have windows XP and mozilla firefox. The site is extremely confusing anyway, it's so difficult to make sense of noun/verb tables when they are simply written in a paragraph and you have to make educated guesses as to their meaning. There is a real need worldwide of a definitive course/grammar in Eastern Armenian, and if I ever find one (which I know is quite unlikely) I will let you and every one know!

[karoaper]

Re: Help with Armenian Nouns!

yes el em shat' urakh, vor du indz ognel uzum es!

I am using, http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.ph...menian_Lessons - this is the best resource I can find, but it is often very unclear.

The site says the accusative of sa, da, na is just sa, da, na. But ajs, ajd, ajn change to sran, dran, nran? In other cases sa, da, na begins in sran- etc. as (ablative case) "sranic", so I take it that they do they overlap in forms? (as for example the genitive of sa is also sra) It would be helpful if that site set out tables for every case of every pronoun, but instead I have to try and make sense of it all. I also have the textbook "Spoken Eastern Armenian" but it is useless and terribke. I also have "Beginners Armenian" which is for Western Armenian (I am learning Eastern armenian, but I was so desperate that I bought a western book too)

1. Is there any difference between iren and nran? for "him" Does one go with na, and then one with inke?

2. I don't understand inke at all!

(The following are quite short questions now!)

3. Can you use "inch" as an adjective meaning "what" (like inchbisi) ?
"inch girk g'uzes?"

4. Does "ajsbisi" make the noun plural or not? "ajsbisi girker"/"ajsbisi girk"?

5. On the website it is written that in the plural "ajsbisine" is "ajsbisinere", with one "n"...but then "vorbisine" is written "vorbisinnere", with double n. Which is correct?

6. Does "ajskan" (so much, so many) decline in the plural, and does it put its nouns in the plural? (As far as I know kani does not - "kani girk unes?")

I hope you don't mind all this, I personally love discussing the Armenian language. I am Armenian myself but I live in the UK and half of my family is british. Naturally none of my bros/sis speak Armenian and I am quite sick of it, I want to talk to my family. I might be a bit picky but that's because I have to write everything down correctly because my little brother wants to learn too afterwards. Thanks again for all your help!

Your passion for Armenian language is inspiring. Keep it up.

1. I think nran and iren have a small difference similar to that and "this" and "that". For example if your're talking about someone you know, I'd say use "iren" or the vernacular "iran". Nran is used more for someone that is distant from you. Also, you could say nran is more formal, while iren is more familiar.

2. Same is for ink@ and na. Talking about a friend, I'd use ink@, while talking about some dude I saw on TV, I'd say na. Careful though with ink@, because inkt means "yourself". Also, inkn is the prefix of many words with the "itself" factor in english, like inknatir (airplane : self flying) or inknaspan (suicide: self murder), etc.

3. I'd say inch is generic what, while inchpisi is more specific what kind. So you can definitely say "inch girk es uzum", while "inchpisi cav unes?".

4. Both ayspisi grker or ayspisi girk are find.

5. Honestly, I haven't heard ayspisin much less ayspisiner@. Ayspisi means "with such", so I'm not sure what ayspisin does. Same with vorpisi, which means exactly what inchpisi does. Again vorpisin or vorpisiner@ is not a word I've heard. Mind you, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I just don't know what it would mean.

6. ayskan stays as ayskan even with plurar nouns. asykan grker. As far as the noune changing to plural or not depends on whether ayskan is used as "thus much" or "this many". For "thus much" the noun stays in singular, like ayskan dzhvarutiun, asyykan tarapank, while for "this many", the noun changes to plural, like ayskan tariner, ayskan erkirner, etc.

Also, when using kani, in cases when the noun is an object and can be itemized, it sounds better to use "kani hat", like "kani hat girk unes?".

If one notion about Armenian pervades is that it is a very flexible language, which can be a blessing and curse, because while there are many ways of bending the grammar, the line which divides correct (though not necessarily grammatically accurate) Armenian from "something else" is not well defined.

[Trolley]

Re: Help with Armenian Nouns!

Thank you so much again! But I have more questions! I'm trying to keep it up as best I can, but you are right about the flexibility of the language, something which I have noticed too...it makes a more colourful language but at the same time is very frustrating for the average learner...I mean, I have moved on to pronouns since I simply couldn't do all those irregular nouns, it was so confusing...

1. About Ink@, I can only see the forms of the plural declined on the website I am using (nom. acc. gen. Irents, instrumental. irentsov, ablative. irentsits)
What about the singular of Ink@? Does the declension overlap with "na" - giving acc. iren, for example?

2. I have "he", na, declined as follows:

nom. na
acc. iren
gen. ir
dat. iren
abl. irenits
instr. irenov
loc. irenum

- What are the forms where you use "nran" instead? Does na go with iren, or does na go with nran (like the demonstrative, that, na) and ink@ go with iren?

I know it's so confusing!

3. "ayspisiner@, ajdpisiner@ etc." - i mean this: "vorbisi girker unes?"
"ayspisiner@ [unem]"

4. So "ayspisi" does not make the noun take the article, like ays?

ays girk@, but ayspisi girk?


And finally, what exactly does "hat" mean? I have heard it before from some of my family "kani hat"...

hima gnum em, vorovhedev aveli shat piti sovorem