Grammatical crisis! Please help

[womble]

Please can anyone help me with a problem I am having regarding Eastern Armenian grammar: In certain types of sentence I can never tell whether to use the infinitive or to use the future participle. For example, in the sentence, Ցավում եմ այդ լսելու (I'm sorry to hear that), why not use լսել (infinitive) rather than լսելու (future participle)?
Conversely, in the sentence, Սուրձ ուզ՞ում եք խմել (Do you want coffee to drink?), why not use խմելու (future participle) rather than խմել (infinitive)?
These are both sentences that I have seen in books. I see both types of usage in various different sentences and I can't seem to figure out any kind of rhyme or reason to it. So, my question is, how does one tell whether to use the infinitive or to use the future participle.
Խնդրեմ՝ ինձ օգրե'ք:

[Stefy]

Re: Grammatical crisis! Please help

I will try to explain..
for ex. Սուրձ ուզ՞ում եք խմել (Do you want coffee to drink)
or another ex. oozum es ergEL? (do u want to sing?)
karox es ognEL?(can u help?)....
in such sentences, where we have 2 verbs, as in ur example, 1. uzel(want), and 2. xmel(drink)...with the second verb we use infiniteve.. another ex.
Yes karox em(the 1st verb) ergel(the 2nd verb in infinitive) (I can sing).. u can campare it(in some way) with the english 'to'...
as "I want TO go" = ''Yes oozum em gnal'' ("al: el" endings of infinitive)
" I want TO drink'' = ''Yes oozum em xmel''



Ցավում եմ այդ լսելու (I'm sorry to hear that), ... and this ex. shows that U r sorry to hear it..it is possible to use "tsavoom em ayd lsel''(in spoken lang.)...but it doesnr sound... but with ''lselu'' u stress that U r sorry to hear it.

[Siamanto]

Re: Grammatical crisis! Please help

It is also the case in both Classical and Western Armenian: the "ու" ending characterizes the genitive form. I hope that the following - from Online Classical Armenian Grammar - will help you clarify the usage of the Armenian infinitive:

There is only one infinitive in Classical Armenian, formed from the present stem by addition of the suffix -l. The infinitive functions as a substantive and declines according to the o-declension. It does not distinguish active and passive. The -l ending is preceded by the characteristic vowel of a verb's conjugation, except that both e- and i-conjugation verbs form the infinitive with e. For example:

Class /Present /Infinitive
e /sirem /sirel, G sireloy
i /sirim /sirel, G sireloy
a /lam /lal, G laloy
u /hełum /hełul, G hełloy < *hełu-loy
o /(gom) /(gol, G goloy)


In post-classical times a mediopassive form in -il developed to distinguish verbs of the i-conjugation.

The infinitive is regularly used as a complement after certain verbs, such as kamim 'I wish to', unim 'I have to', tam 'I have (someone) do (something)', sksim 'I begin to', erknčʿim 'I am afraid to', tʿołum 'I allow to'. Certain expressions are also common with the infinitive, e.g. law ē 'it is good to', aržan ē 'it is right to'. The infinitive may be used with verbs of motion to indicate purpose: gayr yaytnel zawetisn 'he came (in order) to reveal the news'. Result may be indicated by use of minčʿew with the infinitive: minčʿew zarmanal amenecʿun 'so that everyone was amazed'. Used as a substantive, the infinitive may be found in any case: mis utel (N) očʿ en mełkʿ 'eating meat is not a sin'; yaṙaǰ kʿan zlineln (A) ašxarhi 'before the world came into being'; vasn imoy tanǰeloy (G) i kʿēn 'because I am being tortured by you'; akn unein ǰrocʿn yuzeloy (D) 'they were waiting for the movement of the waters'; i baṙnal (L) tērutʿeann jArtawanay, i spananel (L) zna Artašri 'when rule was taken from Artavan and when Artashir killed him'; gtakʿ zsa zi argeloyr i taloy (Ab) harks kayser 'we found him preventing the giving of tribute to Caesar'; zayd bans aselov (I) ew zmez tʿšnamanes 'by saying these words you also insult us'.

The instrumental case of the infinitive is widely used, sometimes occuring where a participle might otherwise occur: awrinadrē tʿagaworn zinkʿn ew ztun iwr, skizbn aṙnelov (I) i glxoyn iwrmē ew i tʿagē 'the king set in order his own person and his house, beginning with himself and the crown'. The infinitive may be used in the instrumenal in an absolute sense; the logical subject in these contructions is expressed by a genitive: ekn Nersēs i meǰ nocʿa ew arar xałałutʿiwn, lselov nma tʿagaworin ew naxararacʿn 'Nerses came into their midst and made peace, the king and nobles obeying him'.

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/armol-4.html

[karoaper]

Re: Grammatical crisis! Please help

I wonder if "cavum em aid lselu" is an archaic form of "cavum em aid lseluc". In other words it's not "I sympathize to hear it", but "I sympathize hearing it", in which case you would not use the infinitive.

[Siamanto]

Re: Grammatical crisis! Please help

I wonder if "cavum em aid lselu" is an archaic form of "cavum em aid lseluc". In other words it's not "I sympathize to hear it", but "I sympathize hearing it", in which case you would not use the infinitive.

I'm not familiar enough with the usage of "cavum em aid lselu" and "cavum em aid lseluc" and Eastern Armenian, in general - be it as spoken in present day Armenia, Artsakh, Iran or...; however, my understanding is that "lseluc" is the Western Armenian "lsele[n]."
If that is the case, "lselou" and "lsele[n]" would be different declensions and have different meanings; for instance, "hoknadz [y]em lselou" - I'm tired to listen - and "hoknadz [y]em lsele[n]" - I'm tired of/from listening: the former has a future dimenion while the latter suggests the past???

Have a Nice Day!

[womble]

Re: Grammatical crisis! Please help

Շնորհակալություն՝ ամեն մեկը: I think i'm at least beginning to get the hang of it now. It's something to do with whether or not there is an element of futurity involved.

[Siamanto]

Re: Grammatical crisis! Please help

Շնորհակալություն՝ ամեն մեկը: .

You're welcome!

I think i'm at least beginning to get the hang of it now. It's something to do with whether or not there is an element of futurity involved.

I'm not sure if I understand you; but, depending on the (declension) case, it may denotes an action in past (lsele[n]), present/atemporal(lsel,) the future(lselou) or none???? (lselov.)

Just keep in mind that it can be declined like any other substantive and the different suffices are not part of the infinitive.

There is only one infinitive in Classical Armenian, formed from the present stem by addition of the suffix -l. The infinitive functions as a substantive and declines according to the o-declension. It does not distinguish active and passive.