Why Is International Recognition of Armenian Genocide Important To You?

[North Pole]

Hello, everyone.

First of all, let me say this - I am NOT trying to be cynical and I am NOT trying to hurt anybody's feelings by asking this question.

I was born and raised in the USSR, in the republic of Belarus, so I do know what genocide is.
The nation of Belarus, as well as Russian people did experience the genocide during the Second World War, during that war the Soviet Union lost 27 million people. But we never ask ANYONE to recognise it, and we don't tell the world about it, even though there are documents which prove that the policy of the German state was a policy of genocide in the USSR.

So why is recognition of Armenian Genocide by other countries and even by countries that located far away from Armenia (such as the USA or Brazil), so important to you, Armenians?

International Recognition of Armenian Genocide

http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=International_Recognition_of_Armenian_Genocide

NP

[North Pole]

Re: Why Is International Recognition of Armenian Genocide Important To You?

"Russians must die to let us live" (a fascist wrote on a school blackboard on October 2, 1941)

Genocide policy

There were many ratified documents of the plan "OST", but the most forthright remarks were made by the head of the Number One Colonization Department of the central political administration of the ministry of the occupied eastern territories affairs of Wetzel. In conformity with that plan, 25% of Belorussians were supposed to be Germanized, if they perfectly corresponded to the racial characteristics, and the remaining 75% were supposed to be killed.
In conformity with such documents like the plan "OST", "Area regulations (supplement to the directive No. 21 or the "Barbarossa" plan) which appeared on March 13, 1941, or "About the military jurisdiction within the frame of the "Barbarossa" plan and about particular power of troops" which was published on May 13, 1941, or "Twelve precepts for Germans in the east and their treatment of Russians" of June 1, 1941 and others, fascist soldiers were not responsible for any crimes or atrocities committed on the occupied territory. Moreover, mass outrage of fascists was legally justified because it was made the policy of the state.



Belarus. October 26, 1941. First public executions in Minsk



Belarus. 1941 - 1944. Pictures 'for a keepsake' made against a background of their victims

Source - http://www.khatyn.by/en/genocide

Memorial complex "Khatyn"

The unique "Cemetery of villages" which you will not find anywhere in the world has been built on the ground of the Belorussian village of "Khatyn". 185 other Belorussian villages which shared the fate of Khatyn are also symbolically buried here. (the 186th unrestored village is Khatyn itself). The grave of the village is a symbolic site of fire. There is a pedestal in the form of a flame tip in the center. It symbolises the fact that the vilage was burnt down. There is the soil of each village in the mourning urn. The soil of each village which suffered like Khatyn and which was never restored. The name of the village and the region to which it belonged is also written by the grave.



More than 260 death camps and places of people mass destruction were built by fascists during the Great Patriotic War. So, there is also "The Memory Wall" with memorial plaques in its alcoves here. On these plaques you can find the names of the concentration camps and of places of mass extermination of people on the territory of Belarus.



The Eternal Fire and three birch trees remind that every fourth Belorussian citizen perished during the Great Patriotic War. There are 4 niches on the mourning pedestal, but the birch tress grow only in three of them. The Eternal Fire is there in memory of each fourth person killed.

http://khatyn.by/en/about/excursion

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The pictures didn't come up for some reason....

[Lucin]

Re: Why Is International Recognition of Armenian Genocide Important To You?

North Pole,
I believe Meline missed your point completely. But without going into details, I'd like to ask you a question (a rhetorical one) that may help you realize the big difference between the two events: following the massacres, did you lose your country? Were you driven out of your ancestral lands??? Is your country occupied now?

[North Pole]

Re: Why Is International Recognition of Armenian Genocide Important To You?

Thank you for your answer, Meline.

And don't forget that some of the best generals in the Soviet Army during WWII were Armenians. Many of them born in Artsakh.

Yes, I know about Marshal Bagramyan.

North Pole, two things:
First: The historical background is completely different. You can't actually compare the two. In your case, you are speaking of organised murder of subjects of an enemy state, organised in the framework of an offensive war. And you don't have to tell the world about it, because it is already aware of these figures, as well of the fact that the Soviet Union suffered the heaviest loss of human lives during WWII.

Well, I did not try to compare the time of WWII and early years of the XX century.

Please, understand that millions of Russians and Belorussians were killed not just due to military actions of the German army in the USSR. There was an official plan of the German state the goal of which was to exterminate the Slavic nations in the Soviet Union.

Read again:

Genocide policy

There were many ratified documents of the plan "OST", but the most forthright remarks were made by the head of the Number One Colonization Department of the central political administration of the ministry of the occupied eastern territories affairs of Wetzel. In conformity with that plan, 25% of Belorussians were supposed to be Germanized, if they perfectly corresponded to the racial characteristics, and the remaining 75% were supposed to be killed.

In conformity with such documents like the plan "OST", "Area regulations (supplement to the directive No. 21 or the "Barbarossa" plan) which appeared on March 13, 1941, or "About the military jurisdiction within the frame of the "Barbarossa" plan and about particular power of troops" which was published on May 13, 1941, or "Twelve precepts for Germans in the east and their treatment of Russians" of June 1, 1941 and others, fascist soldiers were not responsible for any crimes or atrocities committed on the occupied territory. Moreover, mass outrage of fascists was legally justified because it was made the policy of the state.

Source - http://www.khatyn.by/en/genocide

Second: Now imagine a policy led for decades, which runs like this: "WWII never happened. It's just the SO CALLED WWII. Those 27 million people were never slaughtered (or et least, definitely not by us). It's all lies, no one killed them. Russians and Belorussians were never massacred in large numbers, we have never led an extermination policy against them. They just lie, plus it was all so long ago, so let's not even discuss it".

Could you put up with it? Is this what your victims desrve?

Is this what our 1.5 million victims deserve?

Forget it, close the page, and it will happen again (as it does so often). Among other things, it is our past who makes us who we are.

Meline, there are very few people in the West (and forget about the rest of the world) who know anything about the events that took place during WWII in the Soviet Union.
Americans actually think that they won the war the moment the landed on the beaches of Normandy, France on June 6, 1944 (the so-called D-Day).

Today the German propaganda (and not just them) claim that the genocide of the Russian or Belorussian people never happened. They say that this is all Communist propaganda.... The USSR with its "Communism" (or whatever it was) is long gone, but they still call it "Communist propaganda". Weird....

Some Germans even claim that the Nazis attacked the Soviet Union to liberate poor Russian people from the Judeo-Bolsheviks. I understand their propaganda logic, of course, but how can than the Germans explain the fact that the German soldiers burnt people alive in HUNDREDS of villages in the occupied territories?

Here's how they did it:

Quote:

You will not find this small Belorussian village on any of the most detailed geographic map today. It was destroyed by German fascists in spring in 1943.

This is the only photo of the woman who was among these 149 burned people, her name is Vanda Yaskevich.

The massacre occurred on March 22, 1943. Brutal fascists rushed into the village and encircled it. The inhabitants of the village did not know anything about the fact that in the morning a fascist motor convoy was attacked by fire on a motorway just 6 km away from Khatyn. As a result a German officer was killed. The inhabitants of Khatyn were innocent, however their death sentence had already been pronounced. All of them - young and old, women and kids — were driven from their houses out into the shed. The fascists roused the sick from their beds with rifle butts. They had mercy neither for the old nor for women with infants in their arms.

The family of Joseph and Anna Baranovsky with their 9 children was among them. So were Alex and Alexandra Novitsky with their 7 children. Similarly, there were 7 kids in the family of Kazimir and Elena Iotko, the youngest boy was only 1 year old. Vera Yaskevich was also driven into the shed with her 7-week-old son Tolik. Little Lena Yaskevich first tried to hide in the farmstead, but then decided to take safe shelter in the wood. Fascists' bullets were not able to catch up with the running girl, therefore one of the fascists rushed to her and having overtaken killed the girl before the very eyes of her father who was distraught with grief. Among the perished there were also two people from other villages who by chance found themselves in Khatyn at the time. These were Anton Kunkevich from the village of Yurkovichi and Kristina Slonskaja from the village of Kameno.

None of the adults managed to escape. Only three kids - Volodia Yaskevich, his sister Sonia and another boy Sasha Zhelobkovich by name - were able to hide from the fascists. When all people were finally in the shed, the door was locked and the Nazis covered the shed with straw, spilt benzine over and set fire to it. In a moment the wooden shed was ablaze. The children were crying and suffocating in the smoke. The adults were trying to rescue them. The doors of the shed could not bear the force and the pressure of the dozens of people and so they crashed down. Horror-stricken people in their burning clothes took to heels. But the fascists with their machine guns dispassionately killed those who tried to escape from the flames of fire. 149 people, including 75 children under age were burned alive. The youngest baby was only 7 weeks old. The village was then looted and burned to the ground.

The girls from two different families — Maria Fedorovich and Yulia Klimovich — were saved by miracle. They managed to leave the shed and crawl to the nearby wood. Half dead or half alive, all burned they were found by the inhabitants of the village of Khvorosteny of the Kameno village council. Unfortunately, this village was later also burned to the ground and the tow girls were killed.

In the village of Khatyn only two children survived. They are a 7-year-old Viktor Zhelobkovich and a 12-year-old Anton Baranovsky. A young woman Anna Zhelobkovich by name was also in the shed. Together with some other horror-stricken people in their burning clothes she tried to leave the shed, which was ablaze. She was firmly holding her son Vitia's hand. A moment later she was fatally wounded and as she was falling down on the ground she covered the son with her body. The child was wounded in his arm. He lay on the ground under his mother's corpse till the Nazis finally left the village. Anton Baranovsky was also wounded in his leg by an explosive bullet. And so the fascists mistook him for a dead boy.

Source -- http://khatyn.by/en/tragedy

[North Pole]

Re: Why Is International Recognition of Armenian Genocide Important To You?

Meline, you and I are from different cultures.
In my culture, to remember the dead (all dead) we erect minuments, put flowers on the graves and gather on a certain day of the year, and we never go around and ask governments of the foreign, far way countries to acknowledge that our people were killed.

I wouldn't even want some guy with a goofy, comedian like smile from South side Chicago who knows close to nothing about the history of my people (I am talking about Obama who promised to recognize Armenian Genocide while in Azerbaijan(!), so he can get some extra votes) to make statements on such subject.

In fact, I don't even want people who run for any office to touch this subject AT ALL because just a day before they knew nothing about it, but today they use your emotions to make you vote for them so that they can get elected.

[Lucin]

Re: Why Is International Recognition of Armenian Genocide Important To You?

Actually Lucin, you seem to go along the same line as to what I say. It's just focus on different aspects. Therefore, thanks for the contribution

Oh sorry, it seems that I missed your point. I just didn't see one line and it caused confusion.

Anyway, I also wanted to agree with Hye_Psycho and add that a genocide recognition without any punishment for Turkey and more importantly the restitution of our Homland is just absurd.

[Hellektor]

Re: Why Is International Recognition of Armenian Genocide Important To You?

Hello, everyone.

First of all, let me say this - I am NOT trying to be cynical and I am NOT trying to hurt anybody's feelings by asking this question.

I was born and raised in the USSR, in the republic of Belarus, so I do know what genocide is.
The nation of Belarus, as well as Russian people did experience the genocide during the Second World War, during that war the Soviet Union lost 27 million people. But we never ask ANYONE to recognise it, and we don't tell the world about it, even though there are documents which prove that the policy of the German state was a policy of genocide in the USSR.

So why is recognition of Armenian Genocide by other countries and even by countries that located far away from Armenia (such as the USA or Brazil), so important to you, Armenians?

International Recognition of Armenian Genocide

http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=International_Recognition_of_Armenian_Genocide

NP

OK, my two cents worth:

First, the Armenian Genocide is the only successful extermination plan of its kind in history. The Armenian Genocide was perpetrated, after nine long centuries of Turkic genocidal yoke and use and abuse of Armenians, to steal the Armenian homeland from its indigenous people who were living there and had founded their state and civilization since times unknown. The genocidal Turk eradicated this civilized nation from its roots, wherever they could set their bloody paws and claws on.

While the 27 million Russian loss in WWII is immense in terms of human suffering, 600,000 Armenians were forced to fight in WWII, a war that wasn't even theirs and half of them perished. In view of the numbers of the existing Armenians in times of the war that could not have been more than 4 or 5 million worldwide, the loss is almost the same proportionally as for the Russians, knowing that the Armenians had already shed over 60% of their genofund only a couple of decades earlier.

Now to what I actually think of the recognition of the Armenian Genocide:

I believe the efforts in demanding recognition should go on, because this barbaric crime must be known and condemned by all to heal the wounds of the Armenian nation and the perpetrator must apologize and be punished for their inhumanity. But as far as I'm concerned it is high time the Armenian government raised the issue of the Wilsonian arbitration, the only valid treaty regarding the border between Turkey and Armenia, which will allow the Armenian nation to progress and have the necessary security in such a hostile region. Note that the so-called Wilsonian Armenia is less than 40% of historic Armenia and the establishing of its borders has nothing to do with compensation of what Turks took from us. I copy/paste from a previous post with some updating, since the relevant thread was deleted and is no longer available to link to.

If you take your time and visit the wilsonforarmenia.am website, download all the PDFs on the site or read some articles by Ara Papian, you'll see what a powerful and bulletproof document the Wilson arbitration is.

I know many Armenians look at this affair with total skepticism, no, pessimism. Many dismiss it, associating it with the Dashnaks, especially the people from Armenia who for seventy years have been poisoned with that Abrahamic religion of the Jew prophet Carl Marx.

The Wilson arbitration is a legal, valid and binding document signed by Armenia, Turkey and 16 sovereign governments. No matter how many photos from the AG, survivor accounts, eyewitness accounts, etc., we present, the Turk will find a way to deny the Genocide. Even if it were possible to go back in time and videotape the events, they would say it is the Armenians who are killing the Turks. Look what happened with the barbaric destruction of the Jugha cemetery.

First off, let's look at this legal document as dryly and objectively as possible.

I. The Woodrow Wilson arbitration has nothing to do with the ratification or not of the treaty of Sèvres, therefore the Turkish disinformation that Sèvres is void because it was never ratified doesn't hold water, because according to the treaty, precisely the articles 89 and 90:

Article 89.
Turkey and Armenia, as well as the other High Contracting Parties agree to submit to the arbitration of the President of the United States of America the question of the frontier to be fixed between Turkey and Armenia in the Vilayets of Erzerum, Trebizond, Van and Bitlis, and to accept his decision thereupon, as well as any stipulations he may prescribe as to access for Armenia to the sea, and as to the demilitarization of any portion of Turkish territory adjacent to the said frontier. (all emphases are mine. Hell.)

This means THE MOMENT “Turkey and Armenia, as well as the other High Contracting Parties” (plus all those who were on the side of the Entente) AGREED on “submit[ting] to the arbitration of the President of the United States of America the question of the frontier to be fixed between Turkey and Armenia”, FROM THAT VERY MOMENT:

ARTICLE 90.
In the event of the determination of the frontier under Article 89 involving the transfer of the whole or any part of the territory of the said Vilayets to Armenia, Turkey hereby renounces as from the date of such decision (my emphasis, this renders the ratification or not of the treaty irrelevant to the decision of Wilson’s arbitration. Hell.) all rights and title over the territory so transferred. The provisions of the present Treaty applicable to territory detached from Turkey shall thereupon become applicable to the said territory…

II. The Wilson Arbitration has nothing to do with the Armenian Genocide, therefore the Jew appointed clowns in the White House will utter the term “Armenian Genocide” or not does not change its value. It’s like legal deeds in our hand to four of our provinces.

III. Since Wilson signed the arbitration on November 20 1920 and only ten days later, the Abrahamic religion of Marxism was imposed on Armenia through illegal Bolshevik occupation, it stopped existing as a subject of international law, the only body that can participate in such matters.

IV. Since for 70 years Armenia did not exist as an independent state, i.e. a subject of international law, Armenians had to do all they could to get the Armenian Genocide recognized, and rightly so, because had they (hypothetically speaking) “forgotten” the matter, bringing it up after a long time would give a pretext to the Judeo-Saxon Turkophiles to argue that it had lost its legitimacy.

I hope in a not so far future a patriotic government will come to power which will raise the Wilson arbitration issue, the sooner the better.

While the time the process starts good lawyers will be needed to further the issue, no lawyer can raise it because as I said only an internationally recognized state, that is, a subject of international law has the power do that.

Wilsonian Armenia, long overdue. For 88 years Turkey has been illegally occupying Armenian territory and using its resources for which they also have to pay.

[North Pole]

Re: Why Is International Recognition of Armenian Genocide Important To You?

North Pole,
I believe Meline missed your point completely. But without going into details, I'd like to ask you a question (a rhetorical one) that may help you realize the big difference between the two events: following the massacres, did you lose your country? Were you driven out of your ancestral lands??? Is your country occupied now?

No, Lucin. We actually went all the way to Berlin. But who knows... maybe if not for Marshal Bagramyan, Moscow could be captured in 1941.

Bagramyan was instrumental in the planning of two Soviet counter-offensives against the Germans, including the major push made by Soviet forces in December during the battle of Moscow, and for this was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant General.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/88/Bagramyan_kurasov.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Bagramyan_jeep_1944.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hovhannes_Bagramyan

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Anyway, are you saying that the main goal of your push for the international recognition of Armenian Genocide is political?
I am not an expert on this subject, so I believe you are saying that Turkey took part of Armenian land in early XX century? Correct?

[Hellektor]

Re: Why Is International Recognition of Armenian Genocide Important To You?

No, Lucin. We actually went all the way to Berlin.

Did you know 10 Armenian generals took part in the liberation of Berlin?

Did you know the very first army that reached Berlin and the only Soviet army to do so were the Armenians?

[robertik1]

Re: Why Is International Recognition of Armenian Genocide Important To You?

Did you know 10 Armenian generals took part in the liberation of Berlin?

Did you know the very first army that reached Berlin and the only Soviet army to do so were the Armenians?

Hey do you know what the name of the movie that had that famous Armenian actor playing as one of the soldiers when they captured Berlin?