The next step

[Hovik]

I thought I would throw in my 2 cents... And before I begin, I just want to say to all participating - great topic, glad we are having this important discussion, and even more glad that the vast majority are speaking very respectfully and mature.

So, In my opinion, I don't think land or monetary reparations have any place in the current dialogue. As was pointed out earlier in the thread every Armenian you talk to can give you a different opinion.

Two objectives that must be first and foremost in reconciliation (in any order) are, WITHOUT A DOUBT the following:

a. Genocide AFFIRMATION
b. Opening of the border with Armenia and fully re-establishing diplomatic ties.

GENOCIDE AFFIRMATION:
This is not negotiable in any way. Accepting what took place as historical fact is not only the right thing to do, it is the affirmation that is needed for our dead to be laid to rest - peacefully.

Now, apology is a word that I am hesitant to use. Why? Because some things here need to be thought about.

1. Even though so many Turks have stumbled over their words in this forum while discussing the differences between Ottoman Turkey and the Republic of Turkey, there is one thing in which I firmly believe: The Republic of Turkey is NOT in ANY way responsible for the Armenian Genocide. And I don't ever expect nor do I want an apology from the Turkish Government for the Armenian Genocide. That is not what this is about. I want RECOGNITION by the Republic of Turkey and it's people that the Armenian Genocide occurred against the Armenian nation, and that it was in fact systematic, government sponsored Genocide - (heres the key) BY THE OTTOMAN GOVERNMENT. The Republic of Turkey owes us NO APOLOGY for something the OTTOMAN GOVERNMENT committed.

2. Some may ask me "Don't you think it is proper that Germany recently apologized for their involvement in the Armenian Genocide"? To this I respond, of course. It was entirely called for. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the current German government the same establishment that was in place during the Armenian Genocide? Unless I am wrong, they are one and the same and therefore must take responsibility for what THEIR government did. They did absolutely the right thing... NO DOUBT. Turkey is in a different situation.

Now that these points have been made, lets talk again about apologies. As I said I don't feel that the REPUBLIC of TURKEY or its people owe Armenians an apology for the Armenian Genocide. However, they do owe apologies. What for? Well a good start would be: almost a century of denial, including but not limited to - 1. The erasing of any reference to the existence of an Armenian Nation, People, Culture from their educational system. 2. Re-naming wild animals after Armenians (they also did this with Kurds). 3. Oppression of Armenian minorities within the current republic. 4. Continued exile of present day Armenians from their ancestral homeland.

OPENING OF THE BORDER WITH ARMENIA AND FULLY RE-ESTABLISHING DIPLOMATIC TIES:

I am quite sure this speaks for itself, it MUST be done, or there will be no reconciliation under any circumstances. We cannot move on as friends, as partners, as neighbors if this objective is not met.

With these things objectives in place, to answer nemesis' question: I think we can move on and reconcile our differences.

[taboo]

I thought I would throw in my 2 cents... And before I begin, I just want to say to all participating - great topic, glad we are having this important discussion, and even more glad that the vast majority are speaking very respectfully and mature.

So, In my opinion, I don't think land or monetary reparations have any place in the current dialogue. As was pointed out earlier in the thread every Armenian you talk to can give you a different opinion.

Two objectives that must be first and foremost in reconciliation (in any order) are, WITHOUT A DOUBT the following:

a. Genocide AFFIRMATION
b. Opening of the border with Armenia and fully re-establishing diplomatic ties.

GENOCIDE AFFIRMATION:
This is not negotiable in any way. Accepting what took place as historical fact is not only the right thing to do, it is the affirmation that is needed for our dead to be laid to rest - peacefully.

Now, apology is a word that I am hesitant to use. Why? Because some things here need to be thought about.

1. Even though so many Turks have stumbled over their words in this forum while discussing the differences between Ottoman Turkey and the Republic of Turkey, there is one thing in which I firmly believe: The Republic of Turkey is NOT in ANY way responsible for the Armenian Genocide. And I don't ever expect nor do I want an apology from the Turkish Government for the Armenian Genocide. That is not what this is about. I want RECOGNITION by the Republic of Turkey and it's people that the Armenian Genocide occurred against the Armenian nation, and that it was in fact systematic, government sponsored Genocide - (heres the key) BY THE OTTOMAN GOVERNMENT. The Republic of Turkey owes us NO APOLOGY for something the OTTOMAN GOVERNMENT committed.

2. Some may ask me "Don't you think it is proper that Germany recently apologized for their involvement in the Armenian Genocide"? To this I respond, of course. It was entirely called for. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the current German government the same establishment that was in place during the Armenian Genocide? Unless I am wrong, they are one and the same and therefore must take responsibility for what THEIR government did. They did absolutely the right thing... NO DOUBT. Turkey is in a different situation.

Now that these points have been made, lets talk again about apologies. As I said I don't feel that the REPUBLIC of TURKEY or its people owe Armenians an apology for the Armenian Genocide. However, they do owe apologies. What for? Well a good start would be: almost a century of denial, including but not limited to - 1. The erasing of any reference to the existence of an Armenian Nation, People, Culture from their educational system. 2. Re-naming wild animals after Armenians (they also did this with Kurds). 3. Oppression of Armenian minorities within the current republic. 4. Continued exile of present day Armenians from their ancestral homeland.

OPENING OF THE BORDER WITH ARMENIA AND FULLY RE-ESTABLISHING DIPLOMATIC TIES:

I am quite sure this speaks for itself, it MUST be done, or there will be no reconciliation under any circumstances. We cannot move on as friends, as partners, as neighbors if this objective is not met.

With these things objectives in place, to answer nemesis' question: I think we can move on and reconcile our differences.

Hi Hovik,

Throught out the whole my postings here in this forum, i must tell, i couldnt agree more with you.
I am so happy that we are thinking the same.
But there is a wierd side of the story, i think we as the Turkish population should do. We should promote, advertise and make sure that every body in the world knows that Turkey is a different country and politicialy and idealogicly. We need help from Armenian people also for this.
People all around the world are so ignorant and streo typical that they will consider as the real responsible is the Republic of Turkey.
Armenian people should work together with Turkey in order to spread the real truth.
I guess that is the only way that we can get together and share the same table like we do 400 years.

Cheers mate.
I like your post.

[Tongue]

The Republic of Turkey owes us NO APOLOGY for something the OTTOMAN GOVERNMENT committed.

I think they owe us an apology, a big one, for denying the genocide for so long.
I also happen to believe in compensation.

OPENING OF THE BORDER WITH ARMENIA AND FULLY RE-ESTABLISHING DIPLOMATIC TIES:

I am quite sure this speaks for itself, it MUST be done, or there will be no reconciliation under any circumstances. We cannot move on as friends, as partners, as neighbors if this objective is not met.

With these things objectives in place, to answer nemesis' question: I think we can move on and reconcile our differences.

I comletely agree but I guess it'll never happen since Turkey is Not Intending To Open A Border Pass With Armenia.
Surprise, surprise.

[Hovik]

I think they owe us an apology, a big one, for denying the genocide for so long.

I did state in my post that although I don't believe they owe Armenians an apology for a Genocide committed by Ottomans, I DO believe they owe us an apology for several things - the first being "almost a century of denial".

I comletely agree but I guess it'll never happen since Turkey is Not Intending To Open A Border Pass With Armenia.
Surprise, surprise.

This is unfortunate news, but not unexpected. I am wondering, Turks, what do you think of the border not being open? I want to hear what you have to say about it!

[taboo]

i think for the sake of the solving this problem, keeping the border close is relativly not a bad idea. At least for some time.
Turkey is still suffering with the south part already.
I think later on opening the border is a must.

I was wondering though? can Armenian people come to Turkey as tourist?
This border problem is just for import/export i guess.

[imported_nemesis]

Nemesis, as you were telling here. Ataturk is saying that the people who comitted the crime was the old regime. How and why Turkey is totally responsible and should pay the price of this, that is the part that i dont really understand. Ataturk and the Turkish goverment did allready executed all those people who did complete disaster before. The ones who helped the enemy and the ones who get out of control.
So what is the connection with the recent goverment and the whole Turkish population.

I have so many Armenian friends here in NY and Istanbul also so many Jewish friends in Turkey. Through out the Turkey's history there is no incident or not even hatred against the minorities. The people in Turkey are maybe the most innocent and lack of hatred people.( i feel this way after i came to USA even more)
So, what is the real reason for us Turkish people forced to live with this black sin, if it is not the one we comitted from the first hand.

taboo don't wanna ignite a flame and I think reconciliation must take place eventually but don't even suggest that there was no hatred in Turkey or incident against minorities in Turkey. Fist this would be an insult to my grandfather whose shop was vandalized and burned down in the middle of Pera(Beyoglu) during the pogroms of 6-7 September 1955. Let alone the church that was burned down. Please do a little research before you post a reply . I recommend typing 6-7 September incidents in yahoo and see what you get ( even in Turkish published by Turks)
Also do a little research on the minority taxation of 1945 (Varlik Vergisi)...
don't ever suggest that there was no single incident .I can give you 1000 well documented incidents

[Tongue]

I was wondering though? can Armenian people come to Turkey as tourist?
This border problem is just for import/export i guess.

Yup... the plan is to ruin Armenia's economy not Turkey's tourism business.

[taboo]

taboo don't wanna ignite a flame and I think reconciliation must take place eventually but don't even suggest that there was no hatred in Turkey or incident against minorities in Turkey. Fist this would be an insult to my grandfather whose shop was vandalized and burned down in the middle of Pera(Beyoglu) during the pogroms of 6-7 September 1955. Let alone the church that was burned down. Please do a little research before you post a reply . I recommend typing 6-7 September incidents in yahoo and see what you get ( even in Turkish published by Turks)
Also do a little research on the minority taxation of 1945 (Varlik Vergisi)...
don't ever suggest that there was no single incident .I can give you 1000 well documented incidents

I am sure you are right. But again that doesnt show the whole people idealogy and aim. There are soo many Skin Heads gangs in Germany, the government of German people did alot to get rid of them. But again it stays the same. I guess at this point we should better distunguish the starting point and aim. Who did it and why they did that?
I am proud to be Turkish, and i am proud of my multi-cultural ethnic background. You feel alot more tollerant against any kind of angryness and violence if you know the reason and solution.
My mother came from Greece and my father came from middle Anatolia.
My Grandfather (my dad's father) is Arab, and he was the police officer chief of Kemal Ataturk. My mother's father coming from Kirim (Russia). I am proud of this. I have tons of Armenian, Jewish, and Cypriot friends. We are always talking about the confilicts and how people are trying to manipulate NOW with THE PAST. I am just willing to underline, It is a redicilous thing to do. If were are trying to distort/change NOW by using PAST, we commit SIN i guess.

Those things happened before, are not happening right now. Ofcourse there are some people who has sick ideas, but this doesnt reflect the whole precious attitude of Turkish. I must honestly say, Turkey and Turkish people has been and will always be, well behaved/loving and careing towards foreigners/minorities and each other by %90 of the population. This is real and will always be. I really dont care that little percentage and eventually if we stop talking about that percentage and pin point it, it will disapear.

Turkey and Turkish shared alot with their minorities (not like any other country). We suffered together, we laughed together and worked together and sure will live together for many many years.

I dont think diging the graves and trying to prove the old suffering and pain every second day will going to help someone/or some government to recognize or fell the pain of those people who suffered. It will just going to start a flame of endless and pointless war.

I personally fell the pain and suffering of people who has been betrayed and also who has been badly treated. But at the end this is life.
Life is not always full of joy.

I dont think there is a problem for Turkey and Armenia to overcome this particular situation. In fact we as people has already did that.
And If you are talking about politicts. Who cares about those bunch of idiots anyway.

Cheeres to everyone.

[Hovik]

i think for the sake of the solving this problem, keeping the border close is relativly not a bad idea. At least for some time.
Turkey is still suffering with the south part already.
I think later on opening the border is a must.

Well, to be honest taboo, you have been preaching Peace this, and Peace that all over in this forum. Now I can differentiate between your opinion and your governments policy but lets get something cleared up:

1. In a democracy, the government of ones country is elected to REPRESENT the will of the people. (of course this doesn't always happen)

2. The government of Turkey is engaged in an ENTIRELY unpeaceful policy of economic and diplomatic blocade against Armenia. This is NOT peaceful practice.

3. Peace is not something that is conditional. For example, it is not acceptable to say well I want peace - at another time, or later, or when the southern part of a country stops having problems (what does that have to do with anything?). You either want peace or you don't - that simple.

So, as a Turk who preaches peace, you should be protesting against your government if they are not representing your feelings of peace. You, as well as all Turks who claim to only want peace should be condemning your governments blockade policy against Armenia! Are you doing that?

If yes, good for you! keep up your hard work and I look forward to working towards peace together.

If no, stop talking about peace in this forum. you don't want peace and you shouldn't misrepresent yourself as a peaceful person.

You are right, opening the border is a must, but it must be opened now - or when will the hatred ever stop?

[Hovik]

Hi Hovik,

Throught out the whole my postings here in this forum, i must tell, i couldnt agree more with you.
I am so happy that we are thinking the same.
But there is a wierd side of the story, i think we as the Turkish population should do. We should promote, advertise and make sure that every body in the world knows that Turkey is a different country and politicialy and idealogicly. We need help from Armenian people also for this.
People all around the world are so ignorant and streo typical that they will consider as the real responsible is the Republic of Turkey.

Hi Taboo,
Thank you for the kind words, they are appreciated - and my words are sincere. I agree, that many Armenians, and many people in general throughout the world fail to recognize the difference between the Republic of Turkey and the Ottoman Emprie, and may tend to blend responsibility between the two, this is a monumental mistake on their part and the situation should be addressed by all of us. I also agree that it is the responsibility of Armenians and Turks to come together and help the world understand that the Republic of Turkey is a great country, a great culture, and will have a great future. These are my personal feelings! I can't speak for my fellow Armenians but I can tell you I want nothing but the best for Turkey. For that matter, I want nothing but the best for Azerbaijan, Georgia, Iran! We are all neighbors and the success of each should be top priority of the others. The stronger we are together the better off we will be as a whole.

As Armenians I believe we have a duty to not misrepresent Turkey. That being said, I feel that there is a deeper problem. I believe it is very hard for Armenians to do this when Turkey misrepresents itself. You said "people are so ignorant and stereotypical that they will consider Turkey as responsible". But why will they do that? The obvious answer is because Turkey is behaving as if it is responsible. It is denying and closing borders and helping Azerbaijan fight a war against Armenia - it makes itself look guilty of a crime. If the Republic (of Turkey) itself isn't putting the responsibility for the Genocide where it belongs, how is the world supposed to be able to differentiate between the Republic and the Empire? So, as you see, to help clean up the image of the Republic of Turkey, the government itself has a responsibility. Now, once this has been completed Turkey's hands will be washed clean. Can you even imagine the weight it would take off of your countries shoulders? Just imagine, your country would emerge as heroes! You would march into the European Union as a great and humane nation that cares about what is right and proves how moral it's idealogies truly are. Wouldn't that be such a wonderful beginning to a new era for the Turkish Republic? Why drag this black cloud with you into the EU? We are begging you to shut us up! and that is exactly what you would do by washing your hands clean of this conflict.

Armenian people should work together with Turkey in order to spread the real truth.

Once we accomplish the above, you are absolutely right. Armenians and Turks will come together to redefine our relationship, to redefine what it is to be a Turk, and Armenian, to redefine what our countries represent! Armenians don't want to look like ankle-biters any more than Turkey wants to look like denialists. So, lets spread the REAL TRUTH just as you say, about the Genocide, and about the true idealogy and humanity of the Turkish nation.

I guess that is the only way that we can get together and share the same table like we do 400 years.

Cheers mate.
I like your post.

I am already at the table, will you join me as friends, as neighbors, and as brothers in the human race...?