One voice, revenge, hate...

[Kharpert]

Wise words, Hovik.

And congratulations!

[Reincarnated Am]

Congratulations Hovig jan, Dznoghkin shoukin dag medzna yev tsez hbard dznoghkner bahe havidyan.

I know I shouldn’t feel this way but can’t help myself, every time I hear that Turkish B.S. blaming the victims my blood boils, I remember my Grandmother’s tears, how she grew up all alone, not knowing anyone from her family, she knew one thing, that they were all massacred by Turks, I use to hear her crying day by day. She use to read the bible every day and teach us God’s words, she was like an Angel to me, seeing her suffer like that I blamed the Turks for it, and now that I hear their lies and the B.S. about how Armenians were the ones asking for it, it’s like pouring alcohol on an open wound.

[1.5 million]

Joseph i think that you are either ignoring or are perhaps unaware of the volumes of material that document the rise of racist Turkish nationalism (of Gokalp, Tekinalp, Ackhura etc) that profoundly influenced CUP (incl very much Talat, Cemel etc) thinking and policies - along with enactment of racist "National Economy" measures (where Greeks Armenians and other Christians were targeted in sort of an extended Kristanach type of actions)...as well as the significant documentation of Ottoman Turkish racist literature that developed during the mid-late 1800s (harshly) directed against Armenians and espousing Turkish racial supremacy - etc. Believe me - if you were an Armenian in the ottoman Empire during this period you would not deny the Turkish racism against you - it was a very real and omnipresent fact of life.

And Talat was certainly no ottomanist - not in any definition of the word...

[Joseph]

Joseph i think that you are either ignoring or are perhaps unaware of the volumes of material that document the rise of racist Turkish nationalism (of Gokalp, Tekinalp, Ackhura etc) that profoundly influenced CUP (incl very much Talat, Cemel etc) thinking and policies - along with enactment of racist "National Economy" measures (where Greeks Armenians and other Christians were targeted in sort of an extended Kristanach type of actions)...as well as the significant documentation of Ottoman Turkish racist literature that developed during the mid-late 1800s (harshly) directed against Armenians and espousing Turkish racial supremacy - etc. Believe me - if you were an Armenian in the ottoman Empire during this period you would not deny the Turkish racism against you - it was a very real and omnipresent fact of life.

And Talat was certainly no ottomanist - not in any definition of the word...

1.5 Million, The message you responded is confusing because I was actually responding to some one elses emaiol and neglected to use quotes. I meant to insert quick responses. Here is what I wrote:

"Today in the U.S. we openly discuss the genocide of the Native American, Slavery, etc. We do not attempt to whitewash our history nor do Europeans attempt to gloss over the Holocaust. I do noy agree with everything my country does, in fact I'm against it but I appreciate the fact that I cannot be prosecute for "insulting Americaness" and I do not fear for my safety to learn about nefarious activities the U.S. military/ CIA has been involved in in places such as Chile and El Salvador"

"xxxkurt? The Rightwing movement in the '80's? Although the Young Turks started out as an Ottoman party, it was gradually taken over by the nationalists."

[TurQ]

I think it worths to note that Ziya Gokalp was not of Turkish origin. He was Zaza (I think from Van). Zazas ethnically not Turkish, some think they are part of Kurds some say they are between Kurds and Iranians. But he definetly was anti-Sultan.

Joseph i think that you are either ignoring or are perhaps unaware of the volumes of material that document the rise of racist Turkish nationalism (of Gokalp, Tekinalp, Ackhura etc) that profoundly influenced CUP (incl very much Talat, Cemel etc) thinking and policies - along with enactment of racist "National Economy" measures (where Greeks Armenians and other Christians were targeted in sort of an extended Kristanach type of actions)...as well as the significant documentation of Ottoman Turkish racist literature that developed during the mid-late 1800s (harshly) directed against Armenians and espousing Turkish racial supremacy - etc. Believe me - if you were an Armenian in the ottoman Empire during this period you would not deny the Turkish racism against you - it was a very real and omnipresent fact of life.

And Talat was certainly no ottomanist - not in any definition of the word...

[1.5 million]

Gokalps specific ethnicity is as irrelevant as Ataturks (supposed Jewishness). That the racist radical intelectual movements of Turkish nationalism began at the fringes (where "other" types of Turkics resided) should be of no surprise to anyone. These were the people who were direct witnesses to both the collapse of Ottoman Turkish control and were among the (Muslim) people who suffered as a result (and developed bitterness towards christians/non-Turkics) and they also were more exposed/less insulated from Western ways and education. Likewise in Anatolia proper most Turks were uneducated peasentry and those who were not were quite vested in the Ottoman status quo - so naturally again - it was the fringes where Turkish nationalism and racism developed its fullest. And the phenomonon of those who are/were not "pure" Turk or what have you ethnically often causes over compensation in terms of ethnic/racist zealotry.

Gokalp's birth name was Mehmed Ziya and I believe was of Northern Caucasian extraction (Circassian or some mix thereof) - not sure exactly - however its unimportant as the overiding issue was his pan-Turan ideology and the racist foundation of such which came to influence the military (based) faction of the CUP that took control of the party after 1908. Gokalp was 100% Turk in his own eyes and his writings stress his belief in the genetic and cultural superiority of the Turks not just over Armenains and other subjects of the Empire - but over all other peoples of the Earth. Don't try to tell me you are not familiar with such writings (but if you claim ignorance I have quite a library of written material/translations of his and other Pan-Turanist works and would be happy to post some of his and their shocking statements)

So Turq - Like with the CUP itself - will you as well claim that the Turks cannot be blamed for pan-Turanism and the harm of this ideology because it originated outside of Anatolia and the Ottoman Turkish center? Does it not matter to you that such ideology was enthusiastically taken up by the Turkish press, religious leader (very much so) and by a substansial portion of the Ottoman Turkish population at large?

[1.5 million]

[QUOTE=Joseph]

Have you ever thought that what was Turkish (Anatolian people) doing during 1900s-1910s. I think we can’t say that they were writing racist theories or thinking and talking of racist beliefs. They were trying to survive only, but, not planning how to kill Armenians. Do a normal person think to kill his / her neighbour(s) even if he / she is christian or Armenian? If (Barbarians !!!) Turks planned to kill Armenians for their race and religions, why did they wait hundreds of years? (Maybe they waited for evolving and being human). Here it is we must begin to interrogate after these questions.
Do you think perhaps Armenians were scapegoats, Christians that could be made to suffer for the Turkish departure from the Balkans?


Talat and Cemal Pashas were not racist and nationalist, but Ottomanist. If they were racist or nationalist, they would want to deport all non-muslims yet they didn’t. They wanted the existence of Ottoman Empire to be continued while extending to the East. And the only obstacle for that was Armenians. Though it is not simple as much as that, the State must have been ruled by muslims but the race was not important all throughout Ottoman history. And their beliefs needed to religional homegenisation so then they deported the Armenians. Although they didn’t think that the deportation would conclude in genocide.

Joseph - it is the above statement - particularly claiming that Turks were not racist towards Armenians and that the Armenian Genocide did not have a clear racist overtone and purpose - that I obect to and disagree with. If this is not your statement then indeed your use of the quote function has been faulty.

I also highly disagree with any claim that the CUP/Ottoman leader did not think that their policies towards the Armenians would end in anything other then the elimination of the Armenian people in Anatolia. Their purpse was genocide of the Armenians in no uncertain terms - they wished for the complete and utter elimination of Armenians from Anatolia and an end to the "Armenian Question" (and the percieved threat and hinderence) it was to them - and they only way to do this was through elimination of Armenians/Armenian nation from Anatolia (thus genocide by any other name). The CUP discussed this in great detail and knew full well the purpose and intended results of their actions - and they also knew that only under the cover of war could their plan be sucessfully enacted. Need i really elaborate on this any more?

[TurQ]

I am pretty much aware of Ziya Gokalp's ideology. HE says, Turkish land is the land where Turkish spoken etc.
Turkish nationalism was an experiment at those times. It was 100% influenced by European culture(especially French). Western type nationalism has never found a base in TUrkey(I mean among the population). At those times it is impossible to talk about a racist type nationalistic type of feeling(like current day)among Anatolia's Turks. Even today central Anatolia being ehartland for Greywolf party, their ideology is far from Gokalp's or Atsiz's ideology. It is called as Turk/Islam ideology.
Ziya Gokalp also advocates Ezan(Muslim call for prayer) to be announced in Turkish from the mosques. Majority of the Turkish nationalists reject this. I remember a member of MHP(Nationalist Action PArty) said, Ezan should be announced in Turkish, a day later he was fired out of the party.

Gokalp's main motive was to be anti-Sultan and anti-traditional Ottomanism. Nationalism was just a tool. Thats why I mentioned his ethnicity. As a sociologist he might have some great works but as a Turkish nationalist he just sounds childish to me. He is like "WE are TUrks so no other language be spoken".
And speaking about Gokalp/Atsiz style nationalism at those times, it was just an ideology of an elite nothing more nothing less.

Gokalps specific ethnicity is as irrelevant as Ataturks (supposed Jewishness). That the racist radical intelectual movements of Turkish nationalism began at the fringes (where "other" types of Turkics resided) should be of no surprise to anyone. These were the people who were direct witnesses to both the collapse of Ottoman Turkish control and were among the (Muslim) people who suffered as a result (and developed bitterness towards christians/non-Turkics) and they also were more exposed/less insulated from Western ways and education. Likewise in Anatolia proper most Turks were uneducated peasentry and those who were not were quite vested in the Ottoman status quo - so naturally again - it was the fringes where Turkish nationalism and racism developed its fullest. And the phenomonon of those who are/were not "pure" Turk or what have you ethnically often causes over compensation in terms of ethnic/racist zealotry.

Gokalp's birth name was Mehmed Ziya and I believe was of Northern Caucasian extraction (Circassian or some mix thereof) - not sure exactly - however its unimportant as the overiding issue was his pan-Turan ideology and the racist foundation of such which came to influence the military (based) faction of the CUP that took control of the party after 1908. Gokalp was 100% Turk in his own eyes and his writings stress his belief in the genetic and cultural superiority of the Turks not just over Armenains and other subjects of the Empire - but over all other peoples of the Earth. Don't try to tell me you are not familiar with such writings (but if you claim ignorance I have quite a library of written material/translations of his and other Pan-Turanist works and would be happy to post some of his and their shocking statements)



So Turq - Like with the CUP itself - will you as well claim that the Turks cannot be blamed for pan-Turanism and the harm of this ideology because it originated outside of Anatolia and the Ottoman Turkish center? Does it not matter to you that such ideology was enthusiastically taken up by the Turkish press, religious leader (very much so) and by a substansial portion of the Ottoman Turkish population at large?

[TurQ]

I personally dont understand this: If CUP and Young Turks were openly racist in late 1890s and early 1900s why would Armenian parties like TAshnak and Hinjak be very close to CUP and Young Turks?

Tashnaks were nationalists as well, they would very well aware ofaims of Young Turks. So why were they buddies? Is it possisble that Armenians were not aware of Young Turk ideolgy in early 1900s(You say they were openly racist, and lots of literature exist on that).

Gokalps specific ethnicity is as irrelevant as Ataturks (supposed Jewishness). That the racist radical intelectual movements of Turkish nationalism began at the fringes (where "other" types of Turkics resided) should be of no surprise to anyone. These were the people who were direct witnesses to both the collapse of Ottoman Turkish control and were among the (Muslim) people who suffered as a result (and developed bitterness towards christians/non-Turkics) and they also were more exposed/less insulated from Western ways and education. Likewise in Anatolia proper most Turks were uneducated peasentry and those who were not were quite vested in the Ottoman status quo - so naturally again - it was the fringes where Turkish nationalism and racism developed its fullest. And the phenomonon of those who are/were not "pure" Turk or what have you ethnically often causes over compensation in terms of ethnic/racist zealotry.

Gokalp's birth name was Mehmed Ziya and I believe was of Northern Caucasian extraction (Circassian or some mix thereof) - not sure exactly - however its unimportant as the overiding issue was his pan-Turan ideology and the racist foundation of such which came to influence the military (based) faction of the CUP that took control of the party after 1908. Gokalp was 100% Turk in his own eyes and his writings stress his belief in the genetic and cultural superiority of the Turks not just over Armenains and other subjects of the Empire - but over all other peoples of the Earth. Don't try to tell me you are not familiar with such writings (but if you claim ignorance I have quite a library of written material/translations of his and other Pan-Turanist works and would be happy to post some of his and their shocking statements)

So Turq - Like with the CUP itself - will you as well claim that the Turks cannot be blamed for pan-Turanism and the harm of this ideology because it originated outside of Anatolia and the Ottoman Turkish center? Does it not matter to you that such ideology was enthusiastically taken up by the Turkish press, religious leader (very much so) and by a substansial portion of the Ottoman Turkish population at large?

[-Kurdish pride-]

what is wrong with Greywolf party?

Mehmet Ali Agca did crime he served time pope forgived him. he is being victimized just because he shot pope this is not fair he spented most his life in the prison..

Greywolf is looking out to Güney Azerbeycan. Iran is 50% Turk and they dont wanting what happened to Irevan when Armenian kicked out all the Turks and Azeris.

Greywolf is justified in my eyes.

What are you talking about menn 10% of Iran is maybe Turk but they say they are persian because they have shame to be turk they say and when Kurds are proud of their KUrdish culture and Persians so respect them the turks become very angry.
Greywolf is facism Turks like you are brainwashed.
Greywolf kil Kurds that are for the liberty party of PKK. That's terrorism..