Stop Turkey Entering The European Union

[phantom]

. . . Today these countries are continueing to lose... Turkey is being isolated from many international organisations and also Armenia with a little population is losing because the borders are closed trade routes aren't being used.... Who is gaining from this problem?? Of course europeans they're playing with us....

Uh, who asked Turkey to close its borders with Armenia? Both the U.S. and Europe have been asking Turkey to open those borders for over 10 years, so you can't blame Turkish inat (stubborness) and stupidity on the Europeans and Americans in that case. In fact, as Kharpert said, Armenia supports Turkish entry into the EU for many reasons, primary of which is that Turkey will open its borders if it joins the EU.

[ScythianVizier]

Kharpet, as i said before they will interfere our job more than now. I mean they're allways supporting Turkish enemies. They say the human rights. Come on.. They are supporting the leader of the terrorist PKK or Fehriye Erdal saying that her weapon was half automatic, so she is not terrorist. Our prime minister Mr.Erdoğan was put in the jail and he applied to the EU human rigths organisation or anything else i don't know it's full name But it didn't interest them. Come on why did we start o fight in 1900s?? Who lost after this?? Well both sides lost many people in this war. Today these countries are continueing to lose... Turkey is being isolated from many international organisations and also Armenia with a little population is losing because the borders are closed trade routes aren't being used.... Who is gaining from this problem?? Of course europeans they're playing with us....

Generally speaking, Turks do not place much trust in the western states, nations, institutitions, and their promises since the critics, problems, and issues arisen from those does only reflect the level of hypocracy that the west is stucked with.

On the one hand, there is too much fuzz about Orhan Pamuk case, and many Euorpeans come here to support him, which is ok. On the other hand, nobody really cares about what is going on in France when the people in "gettos" start to burn vehicles. Thus, nobody sees any bad in the French Government's decision to sue several rap-bands (for lyrics in their songs) of migrants, and placing charges upon them for "provoking street rallies with the lyrics of their music". Unfortunately, this is only an example how the situation got complicated in the west. People talk about violence of muslims though they dont say much when the Americans bomb the civil areas with napalms, and then they do expect everyone to approve their crimes in Iraq. Interestingly, they dont worry shooting people on their streets (even when the cameras on), in their mosques, or at their homes in Iraq, and they even take them to the prisons and torture them whilst videotaping the scene. No country in Europe really cares about these torture stories/scenes as long as their own "air zone" is not used by CIA. Racists burn down the migrant houses in France, and kill tens of innocent people, but no French protests it really since the ones died were the "aliens". The French Police beats the high school students in the middle of Paris, but no French or European Newspaper seems to be interested in it. The whole Italian speactators in an Seria A game mock with an African player by calling him "monkey" and murmuring some "animal noises" when he plays with the ball, but "this act of barbarism" does not get more publicity than a fight between "Turkish and Swiss Players" after a World Cup Game.

Unfortunately, the West and Europe is in deep decline, and their attitude towards critics of their culture, society, institutions are not generally welcomed or appreciated. They seem to interpret the problems as "external" rather than "internal". The economic and political decline resulting in deteroation of their "intellectual" level causes more conflicts, such as the current impact of their long-term global policies against the Soviet Union which involved in promoting radical Islam or dictatorships in various regions of the world. They accuse others for some undemoctratic approaches and low level of economic development. However, they still dont hesitate to negotiate with poor African countries on debt and interest payment issues whilst providing with subsidized payments for their farmers enabling them to compete fiercely with those agricultural economies relying on "selling whatever they harvest". They keep on telling how they promote democracy as long as their economic interests are not in stake. They keep on talking violent tendencies of Islam when they dont hesitate to invade and bomb "others" violently. They talk about making peace with history, but they dont doubt to pass laws promoting the benefits of their colonial rules at schools. They dont worry when they classify people based upon their race, culture, income, religions, and yet they still claim "discrimination" against the westerners in non-western countries. They produce and sell weapons to the conflicting countries whilst providing with arm technology and know-how to the regimes that they support for their own interest, and then they complain when those people suffered shift their rage upon them.

Nevertheless, listing such irrationale mindset might take quite a while. So, it might be appropraite to get back to how Turkish people get effected, and how they percieve these sustaining policies of the Western countries. In fact, the general tendencies of the Turkish people gradually changes, and their perception embodied "appreciation" within the 19th and 20th Centuries seems to be eroded and happens to change from "promoting" to "questioning". The EU issue is of course a big fuzz. However, more and more people start to consider the context of benefits and the negative side effects of such accession process involving being a member of a club of some declining countries. Respectfully, the public support for the EU gradually declines in Turkey in line with the global rise of the internal and external problems of Europe and the West, and interestingly, this EU process seems to receive confrontation in Turkey far earlier than the votes of the Austrians or the French deemed to block the Turkish membership for good.

[1.5 million]

Nice essay Sythian (Is it yours? kudos if so).

Much to consider - some very good points...

Still does not get Turks off the hook for the Armenian Genocide however...

[hitite]

The EU issue is of course a big fuzz. However, more and more people start to consider the context of benefits and the negative side effects of such accession process involving being a member of a club of some declining countries. Respectfully, the public support for the EU gradually declines in Turkey in line with the global rise of the internal and external problems of Europe and the West, and interestingly, this EU process seems to receive confrontation in Turkey far earlier than the votes of the Austrians or the French deemed to block the Turkish membership for good.

This change IMHO has been rather drastic and very very fast. While the present Erdogan govt.'s most important agenda is the EU and the reforms related to it public opinion seems to have moved against the EU which is also putting pressure on the government. When nearly everbody wanted to join the EU Erdogan found ground for a political program that would bring both islamists, leftists, nationalists, liberals, conservatives united in a common cause, joining the EU. Now leftists and nationalsits are completely against the EU and moderate islamists + conservatives have also started showing cracks and this change happened overnight, i.e. in the last 2-3 years. Opposition heightened during the negotiations for a negotiation starting date when Turkey seemed to be giving more than it was taking. Right now it looks like Turkey has started negotiation and is continuing to give concessions, all this will probably last around 15 years and still, at the end of it countries like France reserve the right to enact a referendum re. Turkish accession to the EU. All this has led the common Turk to say "Well F**K the EU". Turks have admired the wealth, living standards, modernity, civilisation, women, men of Europe for more than a 100 years and it has been a dream to be a part of it, so kissing European ass was common practice. Now Turks are confused since this ass has just farted in their face. They still want to continue kissing that European butt but the fart smells so bad that they could turn away for breath any time. The dream has started to turn into a nightmare and many people are flat out disappointed and frustrated. Ultra nationalists have started to become popular again, so is any other group that openly or indirectly speaks against the EU. Turks believe they have seen the 'real face' of Europe, a Europe that doesn't want them, a Europe that has bag full of double standards, a Europe that has been showing the carrot for decades and just when the donkey is about to bite, the carrot stick suddenly becomes so long it can hardly see the bloody carrot anymore.

[ScythianVizier]

Nice essay Sythian (Is it yours? kudos if so).

Much to consider - some very good points...

Still does not get Turks off the hook for the Armenian Genocide however...

The essay reflect my points and it is written by me, and thank you for being kind about it.


I believe that it is necessary to establish sound and honest Turco-Armenian relations for the good of both nations. Frankly speaking, I believe that such recognition that would satisfy the Armenians, is quite hard to achieve in Turkey, just like a solution that would only satisfy the Turks is hard to achieve in Armenia.

[Vogelgrippe]

SythianVizier, thanks and congrats for summarizing these very important points and Western Europe's hypocricies, which make many Turks feel cheated and even insulted. On a person-to-person basis, my most German friends acknowledge that double standards which makes us Turks really upset. This, however, doesn't change the fact that this is a minor issue for them, and it does not affect their voting, and political party preferences etc...

1,5 Million, I don't believe that SythianVizier or anyone else tries to get off the hook for Armenian Genocide. I, however, strongly believe that all these hypocricies and double standards of Western Europe, perfectly summarized by SythianVizier, urges you Armenians to be careful too. You guys should simply be aware that whenever EU supports your positions, it does not so because it believes in your cause, and when it doesn't, it is not because it suspects your cause. It is simply a political calculation, and however sad it may sound, Europe is not more honest in these issues than the United States. It may even be argued that the U.S. is more sincere, at least in admitting that truths and facts can be sacrificed for the sake of ugly national interests.

[ScythianVizier]

This change IMHO has been rather drastic and very very fast. While the present Erdogan govt.'s most important agenda is the EU and the reforms related to it public opinion seems to have moved against the EU which is also putting pressure on the government. When nearly everbody wanted to join the EU Erdogan found ground for a political program that would bring both islamists, leftists, nationalists, liberals, conservatives united in a common cause, joining the EU. Now leftists and nationalsits are completely against the EU and moderate islamists + conservatives have also started showing cracks. Opposition heightened during the negotiations for a negotiation starting date when Turkey seemed to be giving more than it was taking. Right now it looks like Turkey has started negotiation and is continuing to give concessions, all this will probably last around 15 years and still, at the end of it countries like France reserve the right to enact a referendum re. Turkish accession to the EU. All this has led the common Turk to say "Well F**K the EU". Turks have admired the wealth, living standards, modernity, civilisation, women, men of Europe for more than a 100 years and it has been a dream to be a part of it, so kissing European ass was common practice. Now Turks are confused since this ass has just farted in their face. They still want to continue kissing that European butt but the fart smells so bad that they could turn away for breath any time. The dream has started to turn into a nightmare and many people are flat out disappointed and frustrated. Ultra nationalists have started to become popular again, so is any other group that openly or indirectly speaks against the EU. Turks believe they have seen the 'real face' of Europe, a Europe that doesn't want them, a Europe that has bag full of double standards, a Europe that has been showing the carrot for decades and just when the donkey is about to bite, the carrot stick suddenly becomes so long it can hardly see the bloody carrot anymore.

1. I agree with some aspects of your post. First of all, the decaying empire of the 19th Century found its ground for such "admiration" empowered by the industrial revolution and rise of modern capitalism. Similarly, throughout the era following the republic, Turkey intensified its efforts to modernize her people, and to reform her insitiutions in order to achieve the level of "wealth, living standards, modernity, civilization" of the West.
2. The transformation of Turkey has been rather slow until 1980s. This was due to slow level of "capital accumulation", which prevented western-style capitalist development like occurred in Japan and Korea. In a sense, the Turkish system resembled more of that Yugoslavian one. It was late, it was initiated from the top, and it was promoted via state organizations. That is why, Turkey could not achieve high level of efficiency in various aspects of social life.
3. The era between late 1940s and early 1980s was very volatile time of the Turkish society. Respectfully, economic problems, political instability, differing religious interpretations, ethnic conflicts, social status of women, slow pace of industrialization, lack of appropriate level of human rights, large peasant population, low level of education, lack of infrastructure were the major concerns of the society. On the one hand, the Turkish workers who went to work in Europe during 1960s and 1970s, were the people who distanced themselves from such problems by having admitted as "legal aliens" to the Western countries. On the other hand, people who stayed in Turkey were the ones who kept on admiring the success stories of the western countries throughout 1970s and 1980s.
4. With the changes gradually taken place after 1980s, the Turkish society started to shift its life style and its general perceptions about their country and the world in general. Respectfully, the industrialization of Turkey accelerated, and consequently the goods exported skyrocketed. High level of investment on infrastructure was financed with external debt, relatively more rights were provided to women, whilst human rights began to improve, particularly in the western parts of the country. Conversely, the cities got filled with poorly educated peasants from rural areas. As a result,enourmous number of housing projects together with illegal housing were scattered around the outskirts of the most cities.
5. In the meantime, risk exposure in foreign debt, high inflation rates, political corruption and the ethnic problems arisen from the Kurdish dominated areas resulted in irrationale government spendings on various areas, and triggerred a series of economic crisis in 1990s. When all those happened in Turkey, the was no EU to help the Turkish people out. On contrary, it was the west which did not get involved in "Turkish ways" as long as Turkey did not jepordize the western interests and keep the "Soviet Border" safe with her armies of the peasants. The fall of Soviet Block, and the rise of the EU as an entity, empowered with the rise of "late capitalism", also placed great impact over Turkish Society in late 1990s.
6. Today, Turkey still changes from a half-peasant, half-industrial country to a country which is more open, democratic, industrialized, modernized and wealthy. That is why, the struggles (like you also point out) amongst the major political players seem to be inensified in various aspects of life. For example, there are more than 40 million mobile telephone users in Turkey, some 6-7 million people use Internet, there are many private TV channels, papers, books in Kurdish, Armenian(even the ones recognizing the Genocide), and so on. There are political parties representing radical motives, there are people who are very westernized, who are very islamized, and people who are very modenized and institutionalized. There are modern firms and companies innovating new technologies and applications, and there is ongoing interaction with foreigners via tourism (more than 20 million people have already visited Turkey this year). Thus, there are really advanced private and public schools and universities in Turkey, whilst there is gradually growing demand/supply relationship for consumer goods and services. While the Turkish trade is expected to increase by significant percent each year (Exports: USD 75 billion in 2005), matured level of domestic and foreign investment in various industries lifts the country to a new levels in human development. The literacy rate of Turkey is a good example for such development. It is 88.3 % in general, but about 99 per cent in younger population. While overall female literacy is about 81 per cent, literacy of younger woman population is about 96 per cent.
7. Nevertheless, the problems of the "Western World" is not directly related to Turkey, but they are related to their past, how they accumulated that their wealth, how they percieved the "others", how they defined the "advanceness of a civilization", how they should identify themselves within the new contexts of a global world, how long they could ignore the problems of the others, and how long they could hold on (and impose) "the current rationale" that is gradually turning out to be uncivilized, barbaric, ignorant, and self-centric. On contrary, Turkey is a fastly developing country, and the prospects about its future is quite bright compared to her counterparts in the west. Turkey has some young and relatively educated population, and significant level of accumulated capital, technological know-how, and fastly improving infrastructure. Whether they like it or not, and despite all those painful events of the past, the people of Turkey achieved some standards of living, secularism, democracy, infrastructure, legal standards, production level, and most importantly a Turkish identity that is more tolerant than the cultural identities of the past.
8. The Turkish acession process is rather painful, but also will be a very training experience for the Turkish people. As the Europeans are aware that they are perfect in terms of their technological, social, cultural achievements, there could be only one solution for the case of Turkey: Turkey either changes in line with their needs, or it is left out of Europe for good, if not complying with the terms and rights provided by the Europeans. Interestingly, the process is not that simple as it is deemed. Turkey, unlike what is percieved generally, was and it is still a very important country for Europe and the West (and also for Armenians), and her effects on European culture and politics will be quite important in the future just like it happened in the past. The political spheres, consumption centers, populations density, and ecological changes in the world result in new balances in the world, and Turkey's location and capabilities will only reinforces its barbaining power over time. In that respect, I believe that the EU process might be painful for a period of time for Turkey, particularly over a decade or so. However, after that point in horizon, one could expect shifts in Turkish politics in line with the gradual decline of the bargaining power of the Europeans.

[ScythianVizier]

SythianVizier, thanks and congrats for summarizing these very important points and Western Europe's hypocricies, which make many Turks feel cheated and even insulted. On a person-to-person basis, my most German friends acknowledge that double standards which makes us Turks really upset. This, however, doesn't change the fact that this is a minor issue for them, and it does not affect their voting, and political party preferences etc...

1,5 Million, I don't believe that SythianVizier or anyone else tries to get off the hook for Armenian Genocide. I, however, strongly believe that all these hypocricies and double standards of Western Europe, perfectly summarized by SythianVizier, urges you Armenians to be careful too. You guys should simply be aware that whenever EU supports your positions, it does not so because it believes in your cause, and when it doesn't, it is not because it suspects your cause. It is simply a political calculation, and however sad it may sound, Europe is not more honest in these issues than the United States. It may even be argued that the U.S. is more sincere, at least in admitting that truths and facts can be sacrificed for the sake of ugly national interests.

Thank you for your support and letting us your personal experience with the Europeans.

I believe that only few Europeans recall that they used to receive the Turkish Workers in Germany with ceremony at the airports and train stations. I once met a man who told me how easiliy they used to select the Turkish workers in Istanbul, and it could be argued that their perception was almost the opposite of today's perceptions as long as the "economic boom" was appearant in Europe until having hit by the Oil Crisis.

[imported_Turk]

yes please stop us ..if you can't stop us we will passing by crushing u..or c us after enter the eu..opps sorry ! Its seems that you ll be under the Garabagh ground at that time with your worm bros ..under the foot of Azerians !

[Gavur]

Your ignorance is only exceeded by your stupidity
Why dont you go ride your tricycle