Let's contribute! (How Turkish media twists things!!)

[matteo]

Ok, here is a new thread since my response to your accusations has little to do with archives.

I really don’t have to explain to you all the actions I take now do I?

No reason to get aggravated. You don't have to explain your actions, and I don't have to explain my reasons for questioning your biased stance. It simply bothers me, and I express it in a polite, explicative manner. If you don't like it, you can

1) respond politely or unpolitely
2) ignore
3) ban & delete

You don't have to be Einstein to realize that there is no fourth option.

The reason nevermindname was banned was for posting genocide denial propaganda AFTER I put up the forum rules asking members not to do so. Nevertheless, he came back with a new username ‘objective’ didn’t he? Is his new user name also banned? No.

I cannot speak for all postings, but you banned Nevermindname after he quoted Morgenthau's account of Armenian attrocities as well. His comments included no denial, no false sources. Only the fact that Morgenthau did not see everything so black & white enraged you so much.

When someone, somewhere, tells me that Turks never committed attrocities in that period, I will openly dismiss & refuse this as bullxxxx. So I react the same when you develop an allergy for the flip side of the coin. Is it so hard to understand that genocide denial/recognition is one thing, acknowledging that also Armenians massacred innocent Turks is another?

No one had been banned prior to that, so your comment was out of place. So tell me, since you don’t have anything worthy to offer to our discussions, and your main concern is how I handle my job and how to criticize me, why do you even bother logging in?

By now I must be clear about why I bother to log in. If you consider calling our or your entire ancestors names (see: Hellektor) as making contributions, no, I refuse to contribute to this forum. And I refuse to do it not for fear of being banned from this forum, but because I will never stop considering your people as equal, respectworthy human beings.

That was in reply to this comment of yours
Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo
***No one responds to my repetitive posts of genocide denial… blah blah blah… no one responds… and some more "no one responds"***

And then:

My suggestion is to ban all of us and then log in yourselves with fake Turkish identities!
Then you can create your own despicable Turkish character, so you can insult him as you please!

I see that you don't even have the decency to quote my postings in their original version. Obviously, I did not use any expressions such as 'blah blah blah....', and neither did I post any genocide denial. See? You are coming close to 'creating your own despicable Turkish character' by modifying my postings when quoting, so it was not a bad advice after all...

If you want to humiliate me, you can do so by discrediting the sources, corrections, and links which I produced in my previous postings. Sorry, but 'I don't bother to reply' won't work here!

[matteo]

However, if 'contribution' means providing information, ideas, and challenges, then I'd like to give it a try.

Here is, for example, a link to the english version of Turkish newspaper 'Zaman'. www.zaman.com

Even though I find them pseudo-liberal and hiddenly Islamist, I find some of the articles and columnist of interest.

And the following is an article by Ethen Mahcupyan, a Turkish-Armenian columnist of Zaman, in case anyone is interested.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nauseated Feeling and Media

In every society, the periods of rapid and chaotic metamorphoses pave the way for conservatism. Above all, if this reference to change especially is coming from "outside" and denotes that the society adopts a new way of life, then it wouldn't be surprising if the conservatism at issue turns into xenophobia.

For our modern world, which has been nourished by the nation-state structure and nationalism, it would be seen as natural if this conservatism becomes more of an excluder and adopts more "national" tones. As a matter of fact, the anti-EU motion is heading towards that direction… We confront numerous examples of the uneasiness the society feels for change being activated as a reactional nauseated feeling. And trying to produce "proud reinforcing" outcomes from this... It is possible to refer to art and science in order to repair the pride that felt it could be hurt, but bearing in mind that since it is being considered that we are not powerful enough in this field, or as a result of the habit of "wanting to get something for nothing," the attitude of acting in order to rediscover history, has been adopted. On the other side, the history issue does not seem to be separated from the EU context, Armenian emigration, even indirectly, and is in a position as the main part of the agenda. Therefore, the said nauseated feeling, turning its face to history and rediscovering itself through history, is a sensible phenomenon.

These kinds of activities, as reflected recently in newspapers; laying wreaths at the grave of Talat Pasha, the British commemorating the six soldiers they killed in 1920, at the station where the incident happened, have gained significance within this context. It seems hard to find a different explanation to these ceremonial commemorations, which had been ignored for years, becoming very popular all of a sudden, and people exerting efforts to find some incidents to commemorate… But what really is interesting here is the media's attitude: We see that the "centrist" media, which has taken it upon itself the mission to reflect the irritation penetrating into the depths of Turkey's state structure, is making banner headlines out of stories like this or carrying them to its front pages. Moreover, we see that an editor is using his pen as a tool to encourage these kinds of activities. And do bear in mind that all these are being done in an atmosphere where the AKP government is seen as "ambivalent and incoherent," where a commander, as if this did not amount to interference, blames the government over Iraq. What is being seen is that the anti-EU and anti- AKP parties have joined forces; a strategy in which one can be hindered through the other, is being pursued. And the societal nausea -- and the Armenian issue have been used in the psychological context in the entire case.

Otherwise, would it be possible to ignore an incident, which at the moment should have been the top priority on the agenda? The Armenian ambassador to the EU [Viguen Tchitechian] told the European Parliament's Interparliamentary Cooperation Commission meeting [in Strasbourg] that the Armenian Diaspora created the genocide issue. Undoubtedly, this does not mean we are not confronting a so-called genocide problem… The ambassador said the following: "Without any doubt, there was a genocide committed by Young Turks (Jeune Turks), however, the responsibility for this should not be put on the shoulders of modern Turkey and the Turkish nation. This genocide is important for the security of Armenia…But it is not a precondition for our relations with Turkey." This statement is a sign that the phenomenon, which is called "Armenian Issue," can be divided into two categories, history and politics, and both categories can move in different directions. This is the point Turkey has been trying to reach for years... But this news did not appear in many newspapers, and in a few, it was a small story buried in the back pages.

Apparently, our media did not like this story. Let me put it this way, the anti-EU and anti-AKP coalition that has been formed found it far short of their targets. Because this matter, taking a rationalistic turn, is hardening reactive nationalism that is being produced and making manipulation difficult.

March 21, 2005


25.03.2005
ETYEN MAHCUPYAN

http://www.zaman.com/?bl=columnists&alt=&hn=17813

[Tongue]

The Armenian ambassador to the EU [Viguen Tchitechian] told the European Parliament's Interparliamentary Cooperation Commission meeting [in Strasbourg] that the Armenian Diaspora created the genocide issue.

I'm sorry matteo, but this big lie right here, killed your "contributions".

[Tongue]

It’s interesting, Turkey likes to make the genocide recognition a diaspora issue, when the recognition is and has always been on Armenia’s foreign policy agenda. I've noticed, many of the turkish forumers here hold this stance as well. Why do you think Turkey closed the border on Armenia? Because Armenia won't drop the recogniton from its agenda.

Here are some pictures from the commemoration this year at Tsitsernakaberd in Armenia. 1.5 million people marched to the Tsitsernakaberd memorial!













So… it’s just the diaspora huh? Keep telling yourselves that.

[Tongue]

More pictures from Armenia:

[matteo]

About 'contribution killers'

Originally Posted by matteo
The Armenian ambassador to the EU [Viguen Tchitechian] told the European Parliament's Interparliamentary Cooperation Commission meeting [in Strasbourg] that the Armenian Diaspora created the genocide issue.

I'm sorry matteo, but this big lie right here, killed your "contributions".

Could you please clarify whether this quote belongs to me, or to Ethen Mahcupyan whose article I quoted? What makes you so obsessed with manipulating my postings? Did I endorse or dispute anything he wrote?

You are very welcome to question his reasonings/assertions, and this was my exact purpose of putting his article on this forum. In case you can prove that he mislead the public by providing false/bogus data, I agree with you that he should be warned/exposed.

Since you are so certain that Mahcupyan lies, however, I would be happy if you provide the forum with proof that Viguen Tchitechian did not make the statement which appeared on Mahcupyan's article.

FYI, Mr. Mahcupyan's email addres is [email protected] (as it appears on www.zaman.com).

[Tongue]

Could you please clarify whether this quote belongs to me, or to Ethen Mahcupyan whose article I quoted? What makes you so obsessed with manipulating my postings? Did I endorse or dispute anything he wrote?

I never said this is your quote now did I? Your “contribution” was from Zaman paper, which was a lie or wrong wording. You posted it, and I told you it killed your thread. Don't take everything to heart.

You are very welcome to question his reasonings/assertions, and this was my exact purpose of putting his article on this forum. In case you can prove that he mislead the public by providing false/bogus data, I agree with you that he should be warned/exposed.

This is not the first time zaman has posted something bogus… Many of its articles on Armenian issues are full of mistakes. They state something so outrageous, which later on, turns out to be untrue. For example, on 2/9/2005, Zaman reported that the Youth Party of Armenia leader Sargis Asatryan, and Arsen Ghazaryan, President of the Union of Manufacturers and Businessmen of Armenia, met Ankara Trade Chamber (ATO) Chairman Sinan Aygun on Wednesday and when Aygun asked Asatryan whether he accepted so-called Armenians genocide in 1915, Asatryan said that, ''Turkey did not have any connection with Ottomans. Many things were experienced and passed. 1,5 million people were killed, they say. Years have passed. These are incidents which happened in sultanate and war period. Now, Turkey is a democratic country and we have forgotten these incidents.'' Click here to read the entire falsified report. When I read that, I was like I bet that’s a lie! Just like I do now .
The next day, Armenpress reported this:

Armenian Businessman Denies Report In Turkish Daily
Yerevan, February 10, Armenpress: Arsen Ghazarian, the chairman of the Union of Manufacturers and Businessmen, denied today a report by a Turkish daily Zaman that said Ghazarian and Sarkis Asatrian, the head of the Youth Party of Armenia, met Wednesday in Ankara with Ankara Trade Chamber president Sinan Aygun.

Aygun was quoted by Zaman as saying that turning incidents of the past into a blood feud will bring no benefit, but only disturb people.

Speaking to Armenpress Arsen Ghazarian said no delegation visited Turkey and never met with Aygun. "The report in Zaman is another concoction of the Turkish press and it is not the first instance when I have to deny its reports. This comes to prove one again that one should not take seriously what Turkish newspapers write," he said.

http://www.armeniadiaspora.com/js_05/050210report.html

And this is just one example, there have been numerous false reports about us in your media. Now they’re doing the same thing with Mr. Tchitechian. Funny! Why would Armenian Ambassador to the European Union say something like that? Just use your logic.

Since you are so certain that Mahcupyan lies, however, I would be happy if you provide the forum with proof that Viguen Tchitechian did not make the statement which appeared on Mahcupyan's article.

Haha funny...

You see, you don’t ask people to provide you proof of something some person didn’t say lol…. Usually the one claiming that a person made this statement; however, is the one who needs to provide the proof. That’s just common sense. Besides, that’s like career suicide for Mr. Tchitechian if you ask me.

[matteo]

Tongue,

Do you agree with the following?

-If I write something without indicating any source or proof, such as 'Tchitechian said this and that....', and you question its authenticity, it is my responsibility to support my claim with sources, quotes, etc...

-If I,however, I quote a newspaper, book, etc, which claims that 'Tchitecian said this and that....', (with all relevant links and publisher information) and you question the authenticity of this article, it is your responsibility find sources which correct or discredit the contents of that specific article.

This is not the first time zaman has posted something bogus… Many of its articles on Armenian issues are full of mistakes. They state something so outrageous, which later on, turns out to be untrue. For example, on 2/9/2005, Zaman reported that the Youth Party of Armenia leader Sargis Asatryan, and Arsen Ghazaryan, President of the Union of Manufacturers and Businessmen of Armenia, met Ankara Trade Chamber (ATO) Chairman Sinan Aygun on Wednesday and when Aygun asked Asatryan whether he accepted so-called Armenians genocide in 1915, Asatryan said that, ''Turkey did not have any connection with Ottomans. Many things were experienced and passed. 1,5 million people were killed, they say. Years have passed. These are incidents which happened in sultanate and war period. Now, Turkey is a democratic country and we have forgotten these incidents.''

Let's be fair. I never quoted anything which claimed that 'Asatryan said this and that....' According to what you provided,however, it looks like Zaman reported something bogus (however unrelated to Tchitechian's statement) unless it can be proved otherwise.

I already told you about my 'high' opinion about pseudo-liberal Zaman, and the reason I quoted the article was the not newspaper, but its Turkish-Armenian columnist. I can only be glad that the credibility of Zaman is questioned, but it doesn't change the fact that they reported Tchitechian's statement correctly.

And this is just one example, there have been numerous false reports about us in your media. Now they’re doing the same thing with Mr. Tchitechian. Funny! Why would Armenian Ambassador to the European Union say something like that? Just use your logic.

So far I made sure that my quotes from Zaman reflects the truth, and I did not quote anything bogus. As Mahcupyan reports, and armenians.net confirms, Tchitechian said it, and my logic finds nothing wrong with it.

You see, you don’t ask people to provide you proof of something some person didn’t say lol…. Usually the one claiming that a person made this statement; however, is the one who needs to provide the proof. That’s just common sense. Besides, that’s like career suicide for Mr. Tchitechian if you ask me.

Dejavu again! I provided proof that some person said something, and you questioned the proof's authenticity by calling it a lie. In the meantime, also Kemal provided additional proof (from armenians.net) that the statement is authentic, so what lie are you talking about?

[Tongue]

According to information parrue in the Armenian press, Viguen Tchitechian, Armenian ambassador with l’Union Européenne declaré Tuesday that the question of the Armenian Genocide had been invented by the Armenian nationals living with l’étranger. S’adressant at the Interparliamentary Commission of Co-operation of the European Parliament, Tchitechian affirmed qu’il believed qu’il there had had a genocide but has added that the responsibility for this one could not be charged to modern Turkey and the Turkish Nation. Stressing that 3 d’Arméniens million currently lives in Arménie for 5 million with l’étranger, Tchitechian declaré that will dispora it had made this question a problematic point."

You see how on top it says "according to information parrue in Armenian press"? That means they're writing this article based on information from another source, not first hand information, which has most probably based its information on a Turkish source. Armenpress for example, sometimes, begins its articles with "According to Zamman Newspaper...".

I'll repeat, that's either bogus or wrong wording (to deceive the reader-people like matteo).

[Tongue]

OH WOW!!!! Another lie from Zaman!!! WOW... I'm speechless!!!

Armenian speaker denies Turkish report about problems with diaspora
Jun 14, 2005, 13:26 GMT

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Yerevan, 14 June: The speaker of the Armenian National Assembly, Artur Bagdasaryan, has denied the report that during his meeting with a Turkish MP [Turhan Comez], he allegedly said that Armenia has problems with the Armenian diaspora.

It must be noted that this information was disseminated by the Turkish newspaper Zaman, but the press centre of the Armenian National Assembly denied this five days later.

During his press conference, Bagdasaryan not only denied this report, but also informed journalists that during the meeting, he asked the Turkish MP why he thought there was an Armenian diaspora of 7 million. The Turkish deputy declined to answer this question.

As for the absence of journalist from the meeting, as a result of which the Turkish media disseminated disinformation, Bagdasaryan pointed out that it was an official visit and journalists should not attend such meetings.

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/m..._with_diaspora

Click here to read this twisted report from Zaman.